I really should take the high road. I should. I personally hate the company, but the product is useful. A perfect world it is not. Since everyone else seems averse to actually posting links I will do a few for those interested in the toxicology of Round Up. You will see wild claims but rarely in a scientific white paper by a credentialed professional in the matter. I personally fight for organics and sustainability. I purchase organic food when I can't grow enough of my own, I don't buy or eat feed lot beef etc. Here are some great links First I like Wiki- Sources are noted, and where they are not noted for statements you will seethe (citations needed) instead of the resource number. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/03/roundup-is-safe.html "TOXICITY REVIEW Acute (Mammalian) Glyphosate has reported oral LD5Os of 4,320 and 5,600 mg/kg in male and female rats (15,4). The oral LD5Os of the two major glyphosate products Rodeo and Roundup are 5,000 and 5,400 mg/kg in the rat (15). A dermal LD5O of 7,940 mg/kg has been determined in rabbits (15,4). There are reports of mild dermal irritation in rabbits (6), moderate eye irritation in rabbits (7), and possible phototoxicity in humans (9). The product involved in the phototoxicity study was Tumbleweed marketed by Murphys Limited UK (9). Maibach (1986) investigated the irritant and the photo irritant responses in individuals exposed to Roundup (41% glyphosate, water, and surfactant); Pinesol liquid, Johnson Baby Shampoo, and Ivory Liquid dishwashing detergent. The conclusion drawn was that glyphosate has less irritant potential than the Pinesol or the Ivory dishwashing liquid (120). Metabolism Elimination of glyphosate is rapid and very little of the material is metabolized (6,106). Subchronic/Chronic Studies (Mammalian) In subchronic tests, glyphosate was administered in the diet to dogs and rats at 200, 600, and 2,000 ppm for 90 days. A variety of toxicological endpoints were evaluated with no significant abnormalities reported (15,10). In other subchronic tests, rats received 0, 1,000, 5,000, or 20,000 ppm (57, 286, 1143 mg/kg) in the diet for 3 months. The no observable adverse effect level (NOAEL) was 20,000 ppm (1,143 mg/kg) (115). In the one year oral dog study, dogs received 20, 100, and 500 mg/kg/day. The no observable effect level (NOEL) was 500 mg/kg (116)." http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/actives/glyphosa.htm The theme here is. Don't ingest it. (would you ingest fish fertilizer? I got food poisoning from it once as a kid because I didn't wash my hands after handling...not pleasant) Again Don't drink it, don't spray it in your eyes, don't Walk around barefoot while it is wet or spray it on your skin. The best method is in a pump up sprayer on a calm day to minimize drift. I adjust the nozzle for a course spray, not atomizing the fluid like I would for foliar feeding. This prevents drift and forces the fluid to go on the target and not into the air where you can breath it, get it into your eyes or on your skin or have unintentional drift. Care when applying is all that is needed. Once the treatment area is dry it is safe to enter and work around. My occupation is a Safety Professional. By reviewing the MSDS if I was to have an employee applying this material for me I would require long pants and shoes and Rubber or other light chemical resistant gloves and goggles while pouring or transferring it but not necessarily for the application.. The reason I would recommend this is that is the recommendation of the msds http://www.kellysolutions.com/erenewals/documentsubmit/KellyData%5CNC%5Cpesticide%5CMSDS%5C74530%5C74530-4%5C74530-4_GLYPHOSATE_41__11_30_2006_4_57_38_PM.pdf And the fully formulated MSDS http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Monsanto-Roundup-MSDS-Docs7017.htm Recognizing, controlling protecting from and eliminating hazards are what I do for a living. I would follow the manufacturers instructions and recommend anyone do the same. To put this into perspective you will be exposed to between 100 and 200 PPM of benzene the next time you fill your fuel tank at the self service pump. If you can smell gas, you are being exposed. The Occupational action level where mitigation is required is 1 PPM. A person can apply round up and not be exposed to any substances listed as hazardous with a Threshold limit value by the American council if industrial hygienist or a Permissible exposure limit by OSHA. Get this. Alaska fish fertilizer has phosphoric acid that does have a PEL and TLV. http://www.growercentral.com/UPLOADS/PDFS/alaska%20fish%20fertilizer%205-1-1%20msds%20(02-05).pdf EMERGENCY OVERVIEW: Potential Health Effects: Primary Entry Routes: Eyes, skin, ingestion. Target Organs: Eyes, skin, gastrointestinal tract. Acute Effects: Eye: May cause irritation, redness and/or burning. Skin: May cause irritation, redness and/or burning. Ingestion: May be harmful if swallowed. May cause abdominal cramps, nausea, vomiting and/or diarrhea. Medical Conditions Aggravated by Long-Term Exposure: Persons with existing skin lesions should exercise caution when using or handling this product. Chronic Effects: Prolonged skin contact may cause dermatitis. I am not going to quit using Alaska Fish fertilizer either nor am I giving up fueling my vehicles. I would post opposing views but the first one I opened Had a Trojan horse so if you are going to be searching for counterpoints do not open The link from naturescountrystore.com!!! It's infected with a trojan horse.

Thanks all...when I went out to shut the greenhouse up for the night last night, I checked on everyone again, and buds are starting to swell on Peace, Betty Boop and Sundance now too. Everyone is waking up! I can't wait until they all leaf out...and it sounds like some great garden weather for the next week or so - warm and sunny over the weekend, with possible rain showers next week. Exciting! The soil is really excellent, loamy and full of earthworms, even though it looks terrible. We'll mulch it later so it looks nicer (I don't mind leaving it, and just planting over it, but hubby likes a more "groomed" appearance). Like Dave, I didn't use much compost, just about a third or so, the rest is all native soil (I actually had leftovers from the one bag I bought to put in the veggie bed). I use the waste water from my aquariums to water the gardens for most of the summer, and shots of miracid a couple times per summer, but other than that, the roses generally do very well with little thought here, and I don't typically use fertilizers other than the aquarium water and superthrive to get them started. More pictures later when they get leafed out and growing. :-)

Here is my advice and what I would do in your case. I always start my new bed preparations the Fall prior to the Spring I want to plant. First, get rid of the grass in whatever way you find best and easiest. For me, I simply rented a sod cutter from the home improvement center and it really did the trick, taking off the sod layer only and leaving the good soil beneath very quickly and neatly. The sod cutter is very easy to use and does a very neat job of it with nice crisp lines/borders. The next and probably the most vital step of the whole process is next, and is really a no-brainer in my book. After the sod removal and before any supplementing/amending of the soil in the bed, get it tested by your local Agricultural Extension Agency. That way you know what needs doing for sure to make your beds rose friendly. This is especially important when it comes to your Ph #'s of your garden soil. Be sure your sample is taken from several different spots in the bed and is about 6" down in the soil. If your Ph is bad, no amount of amending will do it any good if the soil is chemically unavailable to your roses because of a bad Ph. rating. If you make sure to tell the agency your target crop are roses, most will even tell you what kind and how much of whatever amendment is needed to make your soil perfect. First get your Ph corrected with whatever the agency tells you that is needed. I am lucky in that my soil Ph is almost perfect naturally so I don't have to do much there except to add just a little sulphur, but you do whatever they suggest to you. Then, I bought the cheapes amendments possible at Lowe's and till them in to the bed several different installments, watering deeply between each tilling to encourage the amendments to "sweeten" the bed. In the last couple of tillings I always work in a good amount of peat moss and a good quality garden soil and again till it several times to really spread it deeply and evenly, finishing off with another good soaking. Now just leave the new bed alone and let it sit through the winter until very late in the Winter season to mellow/sweeten out. Now,just prior to Spring in late winter I take another couple of soil samples to the Agricultural Extension Agency. This way you catch any slight changes especially to your Ph level before you start your planting. Make any necessary adjustments to the Ph if needed. I just cannot stress how important the correct Ph is to grow your roses. You can go to a lot of trouble and spend a lot of money and time spinning your wheels if the Ph is not right. I know this sounds like a lot of trouble, but doing this simple stuff is very important and will pay you so much in return you will find that it was well worth the effort you put in and will save you lots of aggravation not to mention time and money later on. You will get much better roses and be much happier with what you get from them when they grow vogorous bushes with tons of beautiful flowers, supposing you plant the new bushes/bareroots correctly, but that is another posting, LOL..... John

Thank you very much for the information David, but a couple of things aren't clear to me. You wrote, "In the end the 2,4,5 T or 2,4, D are NOT anywhere near as dangerous as the DIOXIN by-product created from making these 'weed-killers'." Well, at least that's good to know. "It" was stopped being made years ago." What 'it' was stopped -- the manufacture of glyphosate? "But by law the stuff made still can be sold until the supply is exhausted." Do you mean the supply of Roundup's active ingredient, glyphosate, will not be made when the supply that was made years ago is exhausted? "The PAN reference I was looking the other day says Scotts stopped in 1996. To still 14 years later have product seems unbelievable so I need to figure out how long ago Ortho was bought out by Scotts because this part still doesn't make sense to me as yet." Does this mean that when the previously made supply of glyphosate runs out Roundup will no longer be available? And that presumably Scott bought up Ortho's supply? BTW, didn't Monsanto spend millions developing plants that were resistant to Roundup so the weeds could be sprayed without it affecting the food crop and called the seeds to those food crops 'Roundup ready'? Why would they do that if the manufacture of Roundup is to be discontinued? I just read this on Monsanto's site: "Roundup® agricultural herbicides are the flagship of Monsanto's agricultural chemicals business. The properties of Roundup agricultural herbicides and other glyphosate products can be used as part of an environmentally responsible weed control program and fit with the vision of sustainable agriculture and environmental" Sorry to be so dense but I really don't understand all this. I didn't even know that Grass b Gone was related to Round Up. I'm not educated in chemistry and thought that the 2,4, numbers, etc. just referred to where molecules attached to one another and not were not necessarily referring to molecules that were related to one another. In other words I thought fluazifop (Grass B Gone) was unrelated to glyphosate (Roundup). But if they are closely related it seems that Roundup would be pulled as well as Grass B Gone. So if anyone can clarify some of this I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance.