Like you, I recently bought a potted,grafted Shenandoah 'tiny' plant and transpotted it into a bigger pot, where it has grown OK with 2 small branches developing full-sized healthy leaves. An identicle-looking tiny grafted KSU Atwood from the same seller that was packaged the same, growing in the same kind of nursery pot, repotted by me the same into the same kind of tall pot on the same day in the same soil mix with the same fertilizing and the same watering and the same Sunlight....never had one bud on the tiny scion grow out. It's rootstock sent out a couple shoots, but even these declined and died. I have used Miracle Grow, Super Thrive, and some granular fertilizer to nourish both. My conclusion is that the tiny root system is not reliable to support the tiny grafted scion. I have more confidence in clipping off the scion and regrafting it to a mature paw paw with a developed root system. I do not know what the patent restrictions dictate, but if I am going to invest $$ on a valued scion that is only being kept alive by an immature, very vulnerable rootstock, that is not a safe bet to make again. It would be a whole lot better taken care of if it was grafted onto a "Mango paw paw that has been in the ground for several years and is 8 or 9 feet tall". I wish that paw paw roots on tiny plants were as eager to grow and hardy as,.. say,...mulberries. Maybe that would be the best focus of additional paw paw research. Vigorous hardy rootstocks.

Camps. I didn't realize Glenburn was not talking about the States, my mistake. Got confused by the phrase 'imported from Europe' but I should have known better... lol I live in an ex-rural, ex-seaside summer vacation place that is now mostly part of the sprawling Athens suburbia, about 40 km east from the center of Athens, by the sea. Yes, I do grow citrus trees as a hobby, I got about 30 of them in my garden, various kinds and varieties and I also grow some in pots (mainly until I can bud them to some suitable rootstock). Citrus are grown commercially in Southern Greece at low altitudes relatively close to the sea. Northern Greece, mainly stone fruit country as you noticed, is already too cold for them as are places in higher altitudes and places too far inland. Citrus and England don't mix well, I know, unless one wants to grow just rootstocks like trifoliate orange and its F1 hybrids which produce inedible fruit, just for decorative purposes. Even under cold glass growing citrus in England should be very iffy, I think. Nik PS. How on earth can one get stuck in Polykastro, a small rural town north of Salonica on the road to Bulgaria? What on earth had you been doing there? That place is really hot and humid in the summer and can be bitterly cold in the winter. Pic of Polykastro in the middle of nowhere.. http://www.kilkis24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/polykastro1.jpg Here is a link that might be useful: An Engish citrus lover's interesting site This post was edited by nikthegreek on Wed, Feb 5, 14 at 8:19

I really hope some will be encouraged to try to propagate roses, now they can see it really is not that hard. And I really want to stress that it is very important to choose the right rose for the root stocks (I think it has become very clear that different root stocks do better in different parts of America or even Europe. I do prefer either R. Multiflora or Rosa Laxa. While some in Florida and other places might do better with R. Fortuniana or Dr. Huey. And Cass you are right! These rootstock are seedlings! But I am not sure that many will have the patience the raise these first, when it so much easier to root the cuttings. We live in a rose wonderland here since we have a very large rose production and many nurseries and access to so many thousands cultivars. We are always not very far from a nursery that sell rootstocks (a bundle with 100 (seedgrown) rootstocks cost about $) and I use about 200 myself every year, to propagate and exchange rare roses or roses that are simply very hard to get. In July here we send rose canes all over in damp newspaper and Plastic bags, to other rose-enthusiasts and nurseries and use the canes as "budwood". Many will however find it easier to use root-stocks grown from cuttings, since that is what they have available. Do use your seedlings if you have any. I am not sure we have the same nematodes here Cass. We do have some but we always bury the Scion at least 3-4 inches under soil level to protect from frost. In areas without harsh winters it seems to be more common to plant the rose with the scion in the surface or even above soil level.

I haven't here because I have no mist capabilities nor any room in which to create them. When I volunteered at The Huntington Library propagating roses back in the eighties and nineties I did. I learned from the folks at Sequoia Nursery watching them do all manner of wonderful things with heat and mist. Mr. Moore took a three pound coffee can and poked holes around the side about an inch up from the bottom. He placed it on a mist table which was between green houses and tall trees where it received a few hours of direct sun and much filtered light throughout the day. He took disbudded (all but the top one or two) long whips of Pink Clouds and grafted two to three pieces of various miniatures just under the top growth buds to created the beginnings of miniature tree roses. Once the grafts were tied in, he would lay them down on the gravel under the mist while he worked on the next one until he had completed the number of that variety he desired, then he would rubber band all of the same variety together with a tied-on label and insert them into the coffee can where the mist would keep all the growth moistened and the water would collect in the bottom inch of the can before leaking out the holes around the sides. In literally a few weeks, as few as two weeks in extremely hot weather, they would remove rooted, knitted bud mini trees which would then be potted individually in four inch pots and placed under mist to continue developing their root systems. As they matured, they would be moved into less and less mist in the green house until they were sufficiently hardened off and could be safely moved out into the open sun where they were kept watered by overhead sprinklers on the nursery tables. What I used what his trick of taking a long whip of a potted root stock in the green house, disbud the length you want to work with and bud as many buds of the rose you have along its length, leaving an inch or two open between them. He would tie the whip into a nearly horzontal position to push the sap upward, forcing the buds to break into growth as quickly as possible. Once they were growing, he would cut them apart and root them under mist, producing budded plants with no stock growth buds other than the budded variety. To produce the scion buds desired, he would bend a cane of the variety he wanted over as you would train a climber, for the same reason, to push it to grow "laterals". Once they started pushing, swelling, not producing leaf or cane growth yet, just swelling into larger "bumps", he would collect and bud them. Having mist and green houses with free water (they had six wells on the six acres which were used for irrigation only); a climate with a true "four seasons" where Daphne, lilac, crepe myrtle, citrus, grapes, most berries, a very wide range of stone fruit, all varieties of redwood, ceanothus, many varieties of cherry, pomegranate, figs, loquats, quince...just about any kind of fruit not severely damaged by heavy frost in spots protected by dense, tall trees grew there. Summer visits often included snacking on berries, cherries or other treats. Mr. Moore was an absolute freak for any kind of berry. Many people (myself included) would bring him all manner of odd, wonderful berries which he always accepted with delight. And, they grew like the invasive weeds most are there! There was enough winter chill, enough water, enough organic litter from all the plants for them to grow massively with enough high heat to make them sickeningly sweet. Usually the humidity wasn't terrible. Rust and black spot occurred, but most often on the open air retail plants which were too crowded in small pots on the tables. In really "bad" years, rust would occur on the in-ground plants, but most often it didn't. The green houses were frequently between 100 and 120 degrees F in summer, with 100% humidity. Under those conditions, there are NO diseases and NO insects! Mr. Moore would lead with me dragging behind him through that heat and humidity to see the latest discovery or seedling. That heat and humidity wore me down quickly, but he stretched like an old cat each time we'd enter one of the "saunas". In those conditions, you can bud or root virtually anything with near total success. Those conditions lasted most of the summer and slowed dramatically as fall began the cool down into winter/spring. It was common to encounter massive "rose trees" consisting of many different rose varieties where a seedling or a piece of Pink Clouds or Rum 10, his thornless selection of multiflora from his Australian agent, Roy Rumsey, formed the roots. The trunks might be three, four or even five different roses which had been budded to the earlier plant to see how they grew, what they looked like. Since they were all seedlings, there was little concern for virus infection. Occasionally a sucker from an older seedling would sprout and Mr. Moore would propagate it to try again. Often, when I would bring cuttings, they would be removed from their bags and laid on the gravel or perlite surface of the mist tables in the mist house where they would be forgotten and root themselves in the table. Burling was able to provide the Hearst Castle tree roses a full year early because of being able to root the whips in pots in the green house and begin budding almost immediately. So, yes, under the right conditions, in the right climate, you CAN bud and root simultaneously. It usually requires high heat and extremely high humidity, tremendously greater humidity than I can generate here in So Cal. Kim