I just replaced a good section of grass with vegetables but it did take about 3 months and the grass roots are still very much there so hopefully everything I planted yesterday will do well.

I would've skipped using Roundup except that there was bindweed growing in the lawn. That said I did spray the roundup in the areas where the weed was growing. Then I covered some areas with cardboard and or newspaper. Next I shoveled on about 3-4 inches of compost and topped that off with straw and let it sit until yesterday. Raked off the straw to the next section of grass :-) Planted peppers tomatoes, broccoli, cabbage etc.

There's a lot of hype on the internet about Roundup I'm not sure how much is real or propaganda. I would be very careful using it around anything that you want to keep.

Hi Aloha,

I'm not sure, but I think grass will be surprisingly easy to kill with RU! The problem then tho, as GJ has said, is that you still have the root mat in there, making it extremely difficult to plant other things, or to improve the soil in a very large area when you do replant. RU only kills things when it gets on the foliage--it then goes down thru the foliage into the roots to kill the plant. Just to be safe, I'd keep it off of exposed roots and the bark, but if you accidentally hit something you don't want to, you can rinse it off with plain water before it dries and you'll be fine. You can replant just days (I think they may say a week on the label) after using RU, but I'd wait till you're sure everything you want gone is dead first, in case you need to repeat the RU. You mention weeds, and if you have thistle and/or bindweed, it WILL take more than one spraying.

Some people say/think that RU can go down into the roots of the plant you're trying to kill and then somehow "transfer" to the roots of other plants nearby, but that has definitely never been my experience. A couple people stayed after the swap and I showed them how I kill cottonwood suckers and bindweed even when it's growing, literally, right in the middle of one of my perennials. I have dozens of cottonwood suckers coming up around, right next to, and in the middle of my perennials every year--I kill them all, and it has never had any ill effects on the perennials. I use RU or Weed-B-Gon, whichever I have around, but you need RU for grass.

That's my take on RU, BUT.....

The mat of roots will probably take a couple years--maybe even longer, to decompose if left in place if you just kill the grass and leave it in place. That's another one of the "differences" here in high, DRY Colorado! You might want to consider renting a sod cutter and just cutting the whole top layer of sod out, at which point you could add a bunch of compost or some type of organic matter and till or work it into the soil that's under the sod layer---which, if it's been sod for a long time is probably very compacted and was probably poor soil to start with when they laid the sod! That would get rid of the nasty root mat, improve the soil you'll be planting in, and eliminate the need for the RU--or at least as much of it! Depending on the types of weeds you have, you'd probably still need at least some of the RU to get rid of them. If the weeds are shallow rooted or annual weeds, you'd get rid of them with the sod, but bindweed or thistle---NOT!

When I wanted to sink the stepping stones that are under my bird feeders, I laid the stones on top of the sod and left them lay there for a couple months. It did kill most of the grass, but even after it was dead it was incredibly difficult to dig out the roots when I finally got around to setting the stones. Also, when I dug out the sod where the tomatoes are on the east end of the yard, and where the perennials are on the west end, I started throwing the (pretty small) pieces of sod on my compost pile, and even on the compost pile, which I keep pretty wet all the time, it was taking a LONG time for it to decompose and I finally stopped putting any pieces of sod on the compost pile and started just throwing them in the dumpster.

However you decide to do it, it's gonna be quite a job!

Skybird

Gjcore, the best of luck with your garden. Bindweed is so nasty. In our previous house we had it intertwined in bushes. It was miserable to try and get rid of, we just kept it at bay the best we could.

Skybird. Thanks you letting me know the good, bad and ugly of RU. I got up at 6am and sprayed before the winds started (50 mph gust forecasted later today). I took your advice about staying away from any exposed roots. We put buckets over the junipers and sprayed away from them and sprayed 1' and away from the bush.

The soil is incredible for the first 6-9". The PO must have brought in a ton of top soil! Both your explanations of how long it takes for the roots to fully decompose has me thinking of how I want to replant the area. I think I will put the trees, butterfly bushes, and whatever else I can think of (suggestions always welcome). After a few years perhaps I'll start planting smaller perennials. I have a ton of other flower beds that need tending, so it's not as if I'll have nothing to do. Knowing all this I won't get frustrated in having to work with tough root systems. It's a large side yard, but it's more of a pass through that I hope to make into an oasis for strolling. For the next few years it sounds like it will be mostly a pass through.

As we gardeners know, gardening is about patience.

That sounds like a good plan. I, personally, would leave the dead grass roots - it will stabilize the soil, and the worms will work on them.

I don't know what to do now.

I was up Monday at 5:45am spraying with RU since it was going to get windy that day (and boy did it). I read somewhere that I should start to see some wilting by 12 hours, but everything was as happy as ever.

At 2am, I wake up with an epiphany. I messed up on the mixture and made it about 1/3 to 1/2 of the strength (I guess that's what I get for getting up at dawn).

So back out at 6am spraying, thinking this will work but alas it's been about 40 hours and not much still.

I don't know how old this stuff is, but I just ran out of the RU from before and it was in an old can that the top had rusted off. It killed everything, even though the can had rusted more then the Tin Man.

I know if I call RU they will say to purchase new stuff, but I'm thinking this stuff is maybe 2 -3 years old (the old stuff was maybe 20 years old).

Does it take longer? What should I be seeing by now?

WAY too soon, Aloha! The poison needs time to go from the foliage down into the roots and then start to kill the roots before you'll see anything happening on top. Probably one to two weeks till you start to see much of an effect, depending on the temps. The herbicides that give you "immediate satisfaction" will only knock the foliage down, and unless the roots are killed too, the grass/plants/weeds come right back. I know it's frustrating to watch it in the beginning, and when I spray bindweed or thistles I wind up out there GLARING at them every day, but eventually the damage to the roots shows up in the foliage. I'm assuming you thoroughly wet ALL the foliage with the solution. If you're not happy with the result in 3-4 weeks, spray again, but before you do, be sure the grass is a long as possible. The more foliage there is to spray, the more of the poison there is to go down into the roots.

Patience! Find some other fun thing to keep you busy in the yard and just give it some time!

Skybird

Thanks Skybird. I relooked at the Round Up website, I looked at the wrong column as to when I should see results. The one I looked at said 12 hours, the correct one said 4 days.

I'm beginning to think I should stay away from chemicals. Between mixing it too weak, and reading the wrong column, I'm not doing well.

You asked about making sure I got everything and apparently I put on too much (unless I read that wrong too). It said a gallon should cover approx 300 sq ft. I put on about twic that much, and I definately wasn't soaking down the grass. I would have had to wisk the hose really fast to get it on even thinner. This project just hasn't gone well at all.

I don't have much time to work on it until next Thursday at the earliest, so it will be easy to be patient. I just didn't want to wait till Thursday and it was as green as ever.

Well I've never had RU do anything in 12 hours OR 4 days, so I googled the label (for the concentrate) and, lo and behold, it says, "Weeds usually yellow and wilt within hours with complete kill in 1 to 2 weeks." I have NEVER had that result! I checked a couple more links and found the one linked below--which is much closer to what usually happens when I use it (or Weed-B-Gon)! I didn't realize when I first found that site that it was from the UK! Don't know why there would be such very different information! Possibly the concentration is different in the UK? Or possibly we US'ans are so impatient that they can't sell the stuff if they don't say it works immediately! In any event, my experience is more like a week to see much wilting or yellowing, and 2-3 weeks before you can decide for sure if it's going to totally kill something. (But I'm usually using it on bindweed, thistles, or cottonwood suckers!)

Regarding my question about wetting the foliage! The more completely you wet all surfaces, the better job it should do. As long as you're mixing the solution at or close to the rate they recommend, I don't believe it's possible to wet the foliage "too much," except, of course, it would be running off and you'd be getting more into the soil/environment than you'd need to. At the last house (rental) I lived in, there was a HUGE patch of well established (years!) bindweed covering a whole area of rock mulch on an "unseen" end of the house, and I once used RU in a hose-end sprayer, and saturated the stuff TOTALLY--until I ran out of RU in the sprayer, and it had very little effect--quickly--long term--or any way at all! It wilted a little, and then ROARED at me! I wasn't gonna spend anymore money on chemicals trying to get rid of it, so after that I just waited till it all grew really long--and I do mean long--and then I'd wade thru it and "roll it up" into huge handfuls and pull it out/off! Kept doing that till I moved out! But I really do expect grass will be easier to kill--but I'm not sure about that. Has anybody else around here used RU to kill grass? When I use it now I mix it in a 2-gallon sprayer so I know for sure exactly what the concentration is--and so I can apply it just exactly where I want it, with no overspray, but I guess that would be hard with such a large area. But I've always wondered how accurate those hose-end sprayers are--especially after my experience with so VERY little effect when I sprayed the bindweed field!

Wait about 3 weeks to see what it's doing, and if too much is still growing, don't mow, leave it grow as long as possible---and then water it thoroughly the nite before you're gonna RU it again! That should get it happily sucking in anything it can get--including the RU! Then wait a couple days and water it well again!

Good luck! We'll be waiting, along with you, to see how your project goes!

Skybird

Here is a link that might be useful: Roundup Weedkiller

Roundup is particularly effective on grass. It sounds like you did this the right way, aloha, and I'd give it a good two weeks and then you should start to see the grass yellowing.

The only exception I've seen is cheat grass, which turns yellow and then goes to seed anyway.

Skybird, I pretty much did what you did with the bindweed when we were living in our old house. It was so intertwined with my bushes, I would have spent a lifetime "painting" it on. I'm sure glad I didn't, especially hearing soaking it down didn't do anything.

David and Skybird, you were both spot on about the RU working better on the grass. Day 3 and yellowing is starting to take place on the grass. The weeds that I sprayed are looking as perky as ever.

My DH is going to be reworking the sprinkler systems this weekend, and I'm going to start laying out the bark in one of the speciman areas we didn't have to kill off the grass first. In this other area we planted an Austrian Pine last weekend, and this weekend we'll be planting an English Hawthorne. I want desperately to get all the trees in the yard to get as many years of growth in as possible. The bushes and flowers as you know don't need nearly as much time in the ground to look good as trees do. I have one or two trees left to pick out. One evergreen and another small ornamental. I'm so glad I saw the threads about Japanese Maples. They are such beautiful trees, but it just doesn't sound worth all the work.

Thanks for all the encouragement, it's hard starting from scratch all over again.

Aloha, just a thought - have you considered solarizing the area? We inherited a nightmare of a yard when we bought our foreclosure - 5' thistle, bindweed, messed up sod - you name it. After going through bottles and bottles of RU (and me being a chemical hater) we decided to solarize and it worked beautifully. It will kill EVERYTHING in the soil - good and bad - so you won't be able to plant there for a while (we waited a year and then composted the heck out of it). But I only have a handful of weeds around the corners of my yard now and those mostly come from my neighbors. :) It's a drastic but effective way to go. We watered the area up and then used black plastic (3mil, I think, most people recommend clear but black worked great for us) that we bought in rolls from Home Depot and held the edges down with brick and rocks.

Google "solarize yard" or do a search on it here on Gardenweb. Might be another solution for you.

Good luck!

Just as a different voice, probably too late, but this old professional landscaper took out the KBG from the treelawn and several areas front and back, ~550 sf of turf. I rented a turf cutter for 2 hours for IIRC $35.00. Then I rolled it up, put it in the back of the truck, took to the landfill, paid 45.00 for the fee, and was done in maybe 6 hours max. Ready to go, blank slate. Done.

Dan

I guess great minds think alike, Dan! :-) I suggested a sod cutter up in my first reply, and if I ever wanted to remove grass from a large area, that's the way I'd go--although Little Olde Lady here would probably need to find somebody else to do the actual cutting! But if you ever have another project like that, save yourself some $ and some labor and post the sod on FreeCycle! You'd probably get a taker within minutes, and they could come load it and haul it away--free! And if you planned it right, you could even have them come roll it up as you cut it! Life was intended to be easy! I'm sure about that! (Except when I'm out extracting clay from my veggie garden!)

Skybird

I wish we could have used a sod cutter. The shallow roots on the maple tree have made so many problems for so much of the landscaping. Someone came over to get free sod, and quickly gave up from the frustration of the maple roots. Today I've been ripping the sod out with a hand shovel near the trunk (didn't want too spray to close to the trunk). I'll spend another 2 hours on it and then I'll use the newspaper method to hopefully ensure the grass doesn't come back (when I have time next year perhaps I'll start planting some hostas at the base).

We are having to make the walkway out of breeze, partly because we like it but mostly because we can work it around the tree roots. My DH had to adjust the sprinkler head between two huge roots (he can seem to do the impossible). The edging has a few gaps because we couldn't get the edging around roots. I think you get the picture.

I would NEVER get a shallow rooted tree. Even if you have your landscape done, the roots will forever be an issue.

although Little Olde Lady here would probably need to find somebody else to do the actual cutting!

Cougar alert! Those were the days...sigh... ;o) Nevertheless, we didn't care enough to keep the turf nice enough to give away in good conscience(compacted and underwatered).

Aloha, sounds like a nasty old silver maple-type. My sympathies. Few good options in that situation.

Dan

ROFL! No Cougar alert needed here, Dan! I haven't been out hunting for MANY years! Love my life just like it is!

"compacted and underwatered" I think you might be surprised by what the folks on FC are DELIGHTED to get!

My sympathies about your roots, Aloha! If your tree was right on the other side of my fence, I'd be hacking them out left and right like I do the neighbors' cottonwood roots! For your hosta, and whatever else you're planing to put in there, whenever you have time start to soften up the soil and add as much organic matter as you can. Hosta do much better with a lot of organic matter, and it'll have time to work its way in better if you start adding it now. And remember, The Tree is going to be sucking up a lot of water, and Hosta like to be wet too, so you're going to need to stay on top of the watering situation when you start planting there. (I may be giving away some small hosta starts at next year's Spring Swap!) If it's mostly shade, consider some of the hardy ferns too! They can be really cool! They like a good "spongy" soil too--and moisture. And don't worry about it if you need to cut out an occasional root here and there to make something work! Think about how many you can see--and then consider how many there are that you can't see! I've been hacking out cottonwood roots for almost six years now---and, oh how I wish I could do some damage to those trees!

Skybird

My DS from Illinois gave me some variagated hostas, and my FIL from Iowa gave me some lily of the valley (I love having a personal story behind where I got a plant) that worked great in our previous house. Since I have another source, unless there are extras at the spring swap, I'd feel better saving them for someone who doesn't have access to any starts, but thank you. This location will be similiar, under a tree that gets lawn overspray.

As I'm digging I'm learning how incredible the topsoil is. I had to keep moving the worms out of the way so I could slice at the grass roots and not the worms. After living in Boulder county (they don't call it Boulder county for no reason - I would find HUGE rocks buried), this is such a welcome relief. I think down below the 7-9" or so of topsoil is all the clay but I'm a pretty happy camper that the PO brought in so much great soil.

Dan, it's actually a Red Maple. It's beautiful on the outside but a mess just below the dirt (and a little above too). I guess since I was so fortunate to have great topsoil, I had to have something to frustrate me.

Yeah, I'm almost done. I hope whoever in the future has this problem, reads this part of it.

I decided to use a utility knife and it was a great help! Cut through all the grass roots about an inch down and then "raked" the blade through the dirt to heavily damage any grass roots that remained. The right (or at least better) tool for the job, makes things go so much easier.

Grass is looking worse and worse (don't hear too many bragging about that). Trying to get all the materials to finish getting rid of the sod, I've been scrounging around at work getting all the extra newspapers - and they get a lot. I've heard 3 layers and I've heard 6 layers is absolutely best and I've heard it's no good at all since it can create problems with pests etc. Does cardboard from cereal boxes etc. contain lead (I've put enough destructive things down with the chemicals)? Where could I find out for absolute sure what is better. It's hard to know what source is more realiable when they contradict each other.

In my own experience in Colorado, good top soil is a rare commodity. So I'd try to keep as much of it as you can.

Also, roundup does take a while to kill the entire plant, roots and all. So if you're already starting to mess with the sod, there is every likelihood that the roots are still alive, and may come back to haunt you.

I'm only removing the sod by hand that I didn't treat near the maple tree (2-3' circumference). It took about 3 hours! I realize all my ranting and raving it probably sounds like I removed all 300' of sod by hand.

The rest of the grass, I'm just sitting back and admiring it getting yellower and yellower (still not much seen on the weeds - luckily there weren't that many).

I've got another area, I'm just getting rid of the grass SEED invested bark that I've been working on. The beauty of having an entire yard makeover, there is always something else to do.

It's good to come in for rests breaks here and there.

Just an update. All the grass is dead, dead, dead. It's amazing how well that works on grass, but the few weeds left are having a hard time but still seem alive. I've got to fill in some dirt but otherwise I'm ready to start laying the newspaper then mulch.

It will look a bit barren this year, and even when we finally get some plantings in. I consider a good garden like a good wine. It gets better with age.