.... just happened to notice your post in the ""Most Recent Posts" box.

Container media are more about structure and stability (stability being the plant's ability to RETAIN a structure that guarantees at least the opportunity for plants to grow at least close to their genetic p[potential. than their ability to feed the plant, which is monkey easy if you choose the right fertilizer. Because of that fact, I never use ingredients or components that make it impossible for the soil to provide a healthy root environment for the entire intended life of the planting.

If you're interested in learning more, here's something that offers a detailed explanation about how the particle size of your soil components impacts water retention and root health. Keep in mind that a healthy plant is impossible w/o a healthy root system.

Al

Humus is the richly textured soil that feeds the microbes once the organic matter is broken down. Humus/Compost Compost/Humus pretty much the same thing as a bagged product at the garden center. You're fine on that.

Are you planting in raised beds or containers? That's important to know how to tell you to fertilize and what mixture to consider.

Humus is basically organic matter that's broken down as far as possible. Colloidal, even. As a packaged product, it's as useless a label as is the term "organic". I've seen "humus" in the HD that was just compost, and not very well broken down at all. I'd use it, but not if steer manure was a major component. Steer manure is all about the salt.

Thanks for the responses. I am only growing in containers, since this is what I have at the ready on my smallish balcony.

So, as far as composted anything goes, be is sheep or cow, etc, isn't really going to burn any plants even when mixed at a 50% ratio? It's more about if the texture is good and will still drain yet retain moisture at the correct levels? As so long as it doesn't get compacted?

As for the humus, not so good with the cow manure, but is it okay with the potting mix or the sheep? I had no idea the cow had salts, something I will be googling now that you brought is up, cold_weather.

As for the ferts... I wasn't going to add any right away, especially to the plants in the Fox Farm potting mixes. It said the soil has enough nutrients to feed them for the first 4 weeks. I was more so concerned for the plants I will be planting in the new, less fancy soil lol. Thanks again guys.

Your concerns shouldn't center so much on the EC/TDS contribution of soil components as on the impact the components have on soil STRUCTURE. You can grow healthy plants in a 100% inert medium (crushed glass, for example) if you're willing to water and fertilize with favorable regularity.

You aren't going to be able to start with a large fraction of fine ingredients. like peat, compost, garden soil, humus ..... and add a small fraction of coarse material in the hope that an effectively amended end product will result. You need select a very large fraction of coarse material (like pine or fir bark and perlite @ > 75-80% in combination) as your base, and amend that with finer material (like peat until you get the degree of water retention that best serves your plantings.

Growing in the earth and growing in containers are two sharply contrasting cultures. More often than not, what works in the garden will be found to be less than stellar in containers. On a scale of 1-10 with 1 being growing in the garden and 10 being hydroponic growing, conventional container culture would probably be assigned something between 7-8.

Al

Al, I read your stuff for years and I respect your knowledge, however, you apparently don't know what our climate is like. We are talking a norm of 10-30% relative humidity. Do you really think a plant stands a chance with that much perlite/bark fines without several waterings per day? It doesn't work here with our aridity. There has to be more humus/compost/soil in the mixture to hold the moisture to feed the plant. I say that as someone who has container gardened in this region for years. Successfully. There is no absolutely perfect recipe in all of this, despite all the proselytizing. We all have to find a starting point and improve from that. I would have killed all my plants using what you recommend because it isn't suited for our area's climate.

Hear, hear, Jali! I've lived in Denver for 50 years now, but 20 years in hot/humid and cold/humid Illinois is something you never forget! The folks that have never lived somewhere where single-digit humidity isn't all that unusual will never really understand the differences in growing things out here.

As for me, I'm the lazy type of gardener! For whatever I do with plants I find the easiest way I can that works for me! With potting soil/mix I use Sunshine #1 for everything! The "trick" as far as I'm concerned is in learning how much to let it dry before re-saturating the soil. Even if I could find--or afford--or have room to store and mix--all the ingredients for the fancy mixes, I just would never get around to doing it--so I wouldn't have any plants, and that would make me VERY unhappy!

When I was at Paulino's they used Sunshine #1 for growing all their perennials, veggies, small fruit, etc. Worked for them--works for me! (They did use the Sunshine seed starter mix for seeding.) It's mostly Canadian sphagnum peat and coarse perlite with gypsum, dolomitic lime, and a wetting agent. That's what I just started my veggie seeds in, it's what I start cuttings in, grow houseplants in, and use in big pots outside in summer. For those of you that have gotten plants from me at swaps in the past, that's what they were growing in--including the succulents! I don't think anybody who's been to a swap here and seen my yard and houseplants will argue that it works for me.

I buy it in compressed 3.8 cf bales, and if anybody is wondering what that is, here's a (copy/paste) link to a pic!

http://www.planetnatural.com/product/sunshine-mix-1/

When I was at the garden center before Paulino's we used one of the "general purpose" Premier Pro-Mixes for virtually everything, and my brother in Illinois uses one of the Ball mixes for commercial production--he's even older than me and only grows bedding plants and veggies in spring anymore! All those mixes are primarily sphagnum peat with perlite and are very, very similar.

Garner, try a few (simple) things and find which works the best for you. Gardening is very much an individual thing and there is no one-size-fits-all answer. Watering, or lack thereof as I mentioned on your basil thread, is the most important thing. When you find a mix that will easily saturate when you water it, will drain well, and will dry, not immediately but quickly enough to keep the roots happy, you'll have The Perfect One For You---and for your plants.

Here's a link to an old RMG thread about potting soil. I spouted off on that one too!

Happy growing--the easy way,
Skybird

Here is a link that might be useful: Potting soil thread

GarnerGarden, according to my very knowledgable guy at the local nursery, those Fox Farm potting mixes are the choice of marijuana growers - and at least around here, its $5 a bag more expensive than anything else.

I've used it for growing peppers and tomatoes in 4" x 4" x 5" deep pots before setting them out in the garden - its a proper mix, with different sized particles, bits of pumice, good air circulation and drainage. If it were me, just starting out, I'd go with that as the main component, and then fertilize with their granulated veggie mix.

As others have noted, the trick is in watering - not too much when they're small, gradually increasing the amount and frequency as the plants get larger and start producing.

You'll do just fine. As you gain experience and get to know your particular environment - hot afternoon sun, wind, etc, you might wish to modify your mix next season by adding more perlite to the mix, some of the composted manure, etc. But to get started, I'd stick with the professional mix.

And finally, if you have a disaster and the plants die either from over or under watering, over fertilizing, or an errant soccer ball, don't get discouraged - it happens to all of us. I'd just do down to the nursery and buy some more plants and keep on trying.

My 5 yr old container rosemary just joined the Great Rosemary Forest in the Sky, because some idiot forgot to water it. I'm off to the nursery to replace it…..

Wow, I'm surprised that a rosemary would die from lack of water! Mine gets some water in spring because it's near an artichoke, than nothing for summer. Rosemary is planted all over Phoenix as a landscaping bush and thrives in hot,dry weather.

It's easy to dismiss someone's offering by saying they can't possibly understand what it takes to grow in dry areas because they aren't saddled with the problem, but a given plant has exactly the same cultural likes and dislikes in dry areas as in areas with high humidity or rainfall. A plant doesn't suddenly decide to prefer a soggy soil because it's grown in the desert. The grower might like it because it's easier to keep up with water requirements, but what the grower likes is more often than not, not what the plant likes. Soggy soils inhibit root health/ function no matter if they're soggy in the desert or soggy in a rain forest, which brings us full circle to the fact that our attention, when it comes to container media, yields better results when directed toward media structure, rather than its ability to provide nutrition to the plant.

It's an unfortunate fact of life that some growers need to deal with extremes of heat and humidity, but it's simply a function of where you live. Soils that require more frequent watering, as in daily or even twice a day, offer greater opportunity for plants to realize their genetic potential, that's a given. What the grower needs to decide is how often he's willing to water, because soils that offer extended intervals between waterings are inherently limiting. So yes, I really DO 'get it'.

Additionally, if you find the ingredients are readily available (pine or fir bark in an appropriate size, along with sphagnum peat and perlite) you can tailor your own soil to whatever level of water retention you might prefer, for something south of half the price of commercially prepared soils.

Al

Wow, thanks everyone. I was not expecting so many responses, but do appreciate all of the information. I do feel I will just have to feel things out a bit for myself. So far, the plants are looking very happy, if I can just pull back my motherly need to water them lmao. I need to just let them do their thing and step back some, so to speak.

Considering I have bought the haul that I have, I will just try various mixes of the ingredients at the ready. It will just be a wait and see what works best things, since I will end up with several growing medium combos this year lol. Go science! :P

GG, you will be fine with what you have selected. Your mix sounds fine to me.

As to the fertilization, for tomatoes in containers, I fertilize at planting, then again when fruit sets. After that, I will give them 1/4 to 1/2 what is on the package every 10-14 days. You'll find what works for you as the season progresses. I usually give them a foliar feeding of kelp once a week throughout the season, and especially when it gets near 100 at the end of July and after a nasty storm. Good growing!

I'm surprised that a rosemary would die from lack of water!

Just keep it in a pot and forget to water it for a month. Easy-peasy!

Some growers believe that because they are happy with the results they can achieve working within the limitations they impose on themselves by way of soil choice, that everyone else should be, too. There are healthy ways to increase water retention (without impacting soil aeration or drainage), and there are not so healthy ways. Sacrificing aeration and drainage by using large volumes of fine materials (manure, humus, peat, compost, composted forest products, fine sand, topsoil) is an unhealthy way to increase water retention; or more broadly, it's a comparatively unhealthy way to grow ..... so to say you'll be fine or to suggest that you stay your course means you will likely be fighting your soil for control of your plants' vitality.

Here is a potting soil thread that has been active since '05, in case you're interested in learning more. The topic or concept being discussed probably represents the largest step forward a container gardener can make at any one time.

BTW - HOW you should fertilize your plants in containers is highly variable. No one can offer meaningful advice w/o some sense of your soil choice, watering habits, and the type of fertilizer you're using.

Al

Garner,

Just keep on keepin' on! You're doing great!

Happy spring,
Skybird

Skybird where did you say they carry that Sunshine #1? Is the price listed on the link you supplied the best deal? Or is it better to purchase locally? I may check that soil out in the future.

On the rosemary note.... I killed the heck outta mine!! I was trying to let it grow inside until it was warm enough to put outside (over winter). No luck! I put that thing thru the third ring of hell and feel just awful about it. I am thinking of starting one from seed to atone for my brown thumb sins lol. I think I over watered it, then under watered it extensively.... Then factor in that it surely wasn't getting enough sun, nor would it be happy under a plant light.... I just sort of gave up on that one, sad to say.

Hi Garner,

The only place I know for sure that carries it is Paulino's at 62nd and Broadway (58th Avenue exit from I-25). (Are you anywhere near there? I don't think I know where you live! When you have time go over to the Who's Here in 2014 thread and tell us your Life Story!) I posted that price in 2011 and I'm sure it's higher by now. Paulino's doesn't list specific things/prices online, so you'd need to call to get a current price. It sounds like a lot of money, but a bale of soil would last you probably three years--or more! It's compressed like peat if you've ever bought a bale of that, so when you take it out of the package (a little at a time!) you "fluff it up" and wind up with LOTS of it! But, Ms. Balcony Person, do you realize how BIG a bale of soil is? Did you look at the copy/past link above? I went out and measured mine, but the bales aren't exactly square so they're hard to measure, and mine is partly used so the height is a close guess too! I got about 19" x 15" x 30"! That would take up a good part of your balcony! I took a pic of my "mostly gone" bale one year when I was trying to show somebody before a swap what it was I was using! This is it by my firewood pile, and it really is almost all gone! The copy/paste pic shows a full bale!

If you decide to get some and to go to Paulino's and decide you don't want that much, ask John at the "customer service counter" what good bagged potting soil they have that's as close as possible to Sunshine #1. (I don't think they carry Sunshine in bags!) If you have somewhere to store it, it really is cheaper to get the bale than to buy a whole bunch of separate bags! It keeps forever! If you go there tell John "Cheryl's best friend" told you about the Sunshine Mix! (I try to not use my real name online!) Also, if you go there you'll probably find a big pile of another Sunshine Mix right in front of the store--I think it's Sunshine #5. It's more expensive than #1, and it's virtually the same as #1, and I've never figured out for sure why they try to push that one, except I think maybe they make more money selling that one! Don't get roped into buying #5--or whichever one it is!!!

I don't know if Kelly at Timberline sells a baled potting soil or not, or what it is if he does--or the price. But if you're closer to there (58th & Simms) you might want to call to ask. If Kelly does sell a baled soil I'm sure it's a good one! (He's the most knowledgable hort person I know !)

It's VERY unlikely that you killed your rosemary with too LITTLE water. They like to go really dry between waterings! If you were keeping it very wet for a while, chances are that the roots were already pretty "unhappy" when you started to leave it dry, and that's why it died. Neglect can be the kindest thing with a lot of plants--and, yes, I still kill plants by overwatering them too!!! Most often seedlings--'cause I'm absolutely hovering over them---to be sure they're doing good!!! And it's not unusual that I'll think to myself that I really shouldn't be watering them yet--while I'm watering them! My seedlings are usually "safer" if I'm really busy out in the yard and don't have too much time to stare at them!

But rosemary is one thing you may find yourself buying another plant to replace the one that died! The herb grower at Paulino' when I was there used to have a hard time getting them started. I think I remember she had a really bad percentage of germination when she tried it from seed, and I know she had trouble starting them from cuttings too. It's one of the harder to start herbs! I've never found that out personally--I don't have one! I think it's one of the most disgusting plants I've ever smelled! (Heresy, I know!) So if you have seed go ahead and try it, but don't get discouraged it it doesn't work--and it wasn't anything you did wrong if it doesn't germinate! On the other hand, if you try it and it works--Great Job!

Happy growing,
Skybird

P.S. If you do decide to get Sunshine, I don't recommend adding anything at all to it. I use it straight out of the package. My theory is that if I use the same soil for everything, I know how long it takes to dry and I just adjust the watering for the individual plants based on how dry they like to be before watering.

Wow, not one single person actually answered the OP's question. Still no idea of what percentage of aged manure to use with soil/perlite in potted plants after reading through all the blabber.. 20 percent? 40 percent? Will potted plants grow better with higher percentage? Answers can be simple.