Susan, Many seed companies include free packets..in fact, almost all the ones I order seeds from will send a freebie packet every time. It is nice that Remy remembered you had said you wanted to grow Little Lucky and sent it. When I ordered seeds for my chocolate garden a couple of weeks ago, the vendor sent a free packet of another type of chocolate flower that I hadn't ordered. That's one of the things to love about smaller retailers....they have time to select a freebie packet to send you that they think you'll like based on what you ordered from them. The larger vendors, like Totally Tomatoes and Tomato Growers Supply, usually just announce in their catalog what their 'freebie' will be and they'll include it in every order or every order over a certain $$ amount.

The comment about Livingston varieties was mine and I made it in reference to only planting Livingston varieties purchased from Victory Seeds. Why? Because Mike is very careful to be sure he has the true Livingston variety, whereas some other seed purveyors assign the Livingston name to a variety that is "close enough" but certainly doesn't match the original description of the variety as given by Livingston himself. I am sure Remy's Livingston varieties are just as true to type as those from Victory Seeds because she's a credible person. There are some small (and not so small) seed companies that do not seem to be as concerned about offering true-to-type varieties,.....and, no, I won't name the ones I don't trust but if I see somebody ordering from them I might suggest they use another supplier.

I also avoid retailers who overhype every variety they offer. Every single variety they sell cannot be "the best" although they try to convince you it is. I prefer honest descriptions to overhyped ones. The truth is that lots of tomatoes are only average, some are above average, a few are excellent, and some are below average. When a retailer hypes every single variety they sell as being excellent, I know that I can't trust what they say. Also, if a person repeatedly claims to be the sole source of a variety that I know is sold elsewhere, that bothers me. There are not many varieties available through only 1 source.

Sandhill Preservation Center doesn't hype their varieties and I like that about them, nor do they claim to be the sole source of any given variety, although in many cases, they are the sole commercial source. I also would trust any Livingston varieties from Sandhill, Glecker Seedmen or Southern Exposure.

Dawn

Oops, my bad. The Livingston Paragon was from TomatoFest.

Does that change your opinion? I don't think I will even grow it, but will probably put it up for offer in seed trades.

I found another bi-color today I'd like to grow called Deweese Streaked. That is my maiden name, so it would be for sentimental reasons. I read good things about it. Have you ever grown it, Dawn?

Susan

I know nothing about the Paragon from Tomatofest so cannot comment on it. I have grown almost every Livingston variety offered by Victory Seeds and I know/trust their seeds for that reason. The Paragon I grew from Victory Seeds was true to type and the fruit I got matched Livingston's description and Victory's description.

I've never grown DeWeese Streaked. Want to know why? It is a late season variety, and it can be very hard to get late-season types to set fruit early enough in our climate. If they don't set fruit in May/the first half of June, high temps and high humidity tend to shut down pollination/fertilization and then they won't set many, if any, fruits until fall. Then, since they take a long time to mature, you're racing the cold weather to get any ripe ones at all. I tend to avoid late-season varieties for that reason, unless I can plant them in Feb. in a pot and drag them into the garage at night. Using that technique, they'll usually set fruit for me in late April or early May and then I can be harvesting it by July. Otherwise, it isn't worth babying a plant through all that heat only to get a handful of fruit in the fall. I'd rather have tomatoes for months. I work hard to improve my in-ground soil and I spend a lot of money carefully blending a soil-less mix for my containers, so I don't want to waste "good soil" on a plant that is not highly productive. I can tell by the first week in June if a tomato plant is going to be productive for me, or not, by how many flowers/fruit it has set by then. In my area, the temps usually hit the point of no return during the third week in June, so if fruits aren't on the tomato plants (not talking bite-sized ones here, they're different) by that point, then that plant is not going to have a good year and is a waste of space.

I also am not a really huge fan of the very large bicolors, having found them to be quite erratic in performance. Some years they taste great, other years they don't. Some years they are beautiful, other years they have a lot of cracking and aren't so great. If it rains a lot, especially after they're breaking color, their texture can get mushy or mealy and the excess moisture waters down the flavor. I've had better results from red/green bicolors than from yellow/orange/red ones. I don't know why but for whatever reason they seem better adapted to our climate. To be honest, even the bicolored cherry types I've grown weren;t good enough to earn a return engagement. It isn't that there was something wrong with them, but rather than there just wasn't anything that special.

This year some of the Brad Gates' varieties I'm trying are bicolors and they may be late-season ones, but I've toyed with trying them for years and finally decided to just do it. However, they're "experiments" that I'm added in addition to all my regular tomatoes, which means I added more containers in order to have them and not that they are taking the place of one of our "usual" productive varieties. That makes them expendable if they aren't doing well. I have a certain number of tomatoes I expect to get for fresh eating, canning, salsa, pasta sauce, dehydrating, etc. so I am pretty ruthless about not growing types that won't/don't deliver. For me, late season types tend to not deliver. Your results might vary, and you certainly should try whatever pleases you, but remember that there is virtually nothing we can do here to offset the effect that high heat/high humidity have on tomato production and choose your varieties with that in mind.

What is it about DeWeese Streaked that appeals to you?

Dawn

OK Dawn, you're in trouble now. DeWeese is her maiden name and you said it was a late bloomer and not productive in Oklahoma. [grin] I'll bet you get an answer on this one. LOL

If I chose tomatoes based on family names, I could grow Tiny Tim, which I have grown (not because it had Tim's name, but because I was looking for something small to grow indoors in winter) and it wasn't a winner.

I just hate seeing anyone who is dealing with limited space taking a chance on a type of tomato that is less likely than others to do well here.

DeWeese might be a perfectly wonderful tomato and I'm not saying it won't be. I'm just saying that based on what we know about the effect of high heat/high humidity on late-season producers, it is a riskier choice than a smaller tomato that produces earlier.

The tomatoes that produce best for me after the month of May are those that produce tomatoes that weigh less than a pound. And, of course, the worse the heat, the worse the production of late tomatoes, at least until it cools down in fall....and then you have to worry about having a lot of green tomatoes that freeze before they get big enough to ripen.

Growing tomatoes here would be so much easier if the weather would do what we want it to do when we want it to do it.

Dawn - You know I was just pulling your chain, right?

Carol, I know! Now, though, I'm worried Susan might be out hiring a hit man because I was not overly encouraging about choosing a tomato based on name alone....especially since it is her name.

The surest way to guarantee she'll have success with this variety would be for me to state that it absolutely, positively will not produce well here. That should pretty much guarantee that it will be a huge winner just to prove me wrong.

Dawn

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the banter between you two this morning! What a morning java joust! Dawn, I think you should choose Tim's Black Ruffles, LOL!

You must admit that Deweese is not a common name. I don't think I have room for any more tomatoes anyway. I don't know the exact number, but I think I have 20 so far, and that doesn't include Jay's gifts - that I should be in such company inspires shock and awe!

I usually do get free seed in my orders, but it never fails that it is something I don't want. I got some kind of ornamental Amaranth from Select Seeds that I know I will not grow.

I find I am very interested in the bi-colors and stripes. I mean, they're beautiful if nothing else, and will hopefully be really tasty, too. Both Lucky Cross and Little Lucky are supposed to be great tomatoes and are bi-colors. I can't wait until seeds of Craig's other crosses come out of the closet - Caitlin's Lucky Cross, a pink/gold striped. I'm also anxious to see the finished development of some of his dwarfs like Dwarf Wild Fred (out of Dwarf Chamption and Carbon). There are so so many, it's astounding. Of course, I, as a container gardener, am very interested in dwarf tomatoes that produce a fruit larger than a cherry or saladette. I'll attach one of Craig's pages in case you're interested in seeing some of the dwarf varieties he grew out this last year, and which includes a list of his favorites, recommendations, and assessments, always interesting to see what others think of certain varieties.

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: Craig LeHoullier--From The Vine

Susan,

I thought about growing Tim's Black Ruffles, but all the ruffled types I've grown previously were big disappointments. They certainly looked much better than they tasted.

Lucky Cross and Little Lucky are superb tomatoes. However, for me, when grown in the ground or in containers, I'm lucky (pun intended) to get 3 to 5 tomatoes from Lucky Cross or maybe 6 or 7 in a cool, wetter-than-average year. My guess is that, like many other large-fruited bicolors, it doesn't like our extreme heat. Its flavor ranks right up there with Brandywine Sudduth and Stump of the World, though.

Little Lucky is much more productive in our heat and I have grown it both in the ground and in containers. In a large container (20 gallons), it produces almost as many tomatoes as it does in the ground, which doesn't necessarily happen with every variety.

I always enjoy visiting Craig's website and reading his updates. He's one of the "founding father" of the heirloom tomato movement and when I think of how many varieties he saved/resurrected from near-extinction, it is mind-boggling. I also enjoy visiting Fusion's website to see what Darrel Jones is up to. Plants that perform well for him tend to perform well here, and his grow list makes Jay and I look like the amateurs we are.

For anyone who wants heirloom tomato plants they can't find from local Oklahoma sources like Duck Creek Farms, The Tomato Man's Daughter, Sunrise Acres, etc., and who doesn't wish to grow their own, Selected Plants is a great mail-order plant source.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Selected Plants

I ordered from Totally Tomatoes last year and recieved free seed as well. The free tomato seed was Raad Red which was substituted for Red Alert. This year apparently neither variety is available from TT, leading me to believe that the free seed is something they can't sell anyway. Not doggin' TT as I was pleased with the seed I did order and will order from them again this year.

Keith

I stand corrected on the Red Alert as it is available, however things are getting confusing... In the online catalogue the free seed offered are: NuMex Sunrise Pepper and Red Alert Tomato. However in the paper catalogue received in the mail the free seed offered are: Serrano Tampiqueno Pepper and Djena Lee's Golden Girl Tomato...

I don't know...
Confused in MWC...

Keith