Jay, someday please talk about the peppers you grow. I grow a lot of sweet peppers but only a couple of hotter ones. I think I might like to grow some that I read about called New Mexico Big Jim or something like that. I like for things to be spicey but not "burn your mouth up hot". What would you suggest? Where should I order seeds?

I am growing Pablanos for the first time this year. My peppers are coming in very late, and I picked the first pablano today, but my plants are covered with small ones. Part of that is weather related, but the other part is probably because I had them in containers until mid July. They have more that doubled in height since I put them in the ground, but it took a while for them to set fruit. I had no idea the plant would be that tall. My bells have been late also but they are making some huge peppers.

You may not be the one for me to ask because you are probably a "pepper head" growing up in that part of the world. You probably like them much hotter than I do. LOL I loved Mexican food in Colorado because it was the real deal, not like the Tex-Mex we find here. So many of them use cilantro and I never saw it used in the Mexican food we could get in Colorado. I hate that weed.

When we lived in Dayton, Ohio, I had an employee that travelled to see her family in San Antonio a couple of times a year. Everytime she went she brought us several dozen tamales, and they were the real deal. She would always say, "What do you want from San Antonio? Oh, nevermind, how many do you want?" I was always ready to send the money with her to bring back all she could carry back. LOL

So-o-o, tell us about your peppers. Carol

Paula, I think it is probably best when no relatives live next door! Probably even my own kids....a little distance is a good thing.

I don't even think people should walk into other peoples yards without asking permission first. I can't imagine them actually taking produce without asking but I do know how tricky a situation it is. I think Dawn's subtle approach is best.

Good luck.

glenda

Scott,

I know these words will shock you coming from me after all my 'troubles' this summer, but I felt really bad about the cougar being shot in Georgia. I was thinking how courageous and bold he'd been to strike out on his own to, presumably, find his own hunting territory as juvenile males must. He was big and healthy, so clearly he was a good hunter. As far as I know (and I only read the one story about the DNA ID, so I don't know much about why he was shot), he wasn't lurking in a residential area or killing livestock, so presumably he was shot for 'sport'? It just seems wrong.

I'd like to see the big predators like cougars and wolves somehow confined to remote wild areas where they can live the way they're meant to live. The trouble, of course, develops when they get too close to humans and become a threat to livestock, domestic pets and humans.

I know that the Florida panthers are known to feed not only on deer but also on feral pigs. With the explosive growth in the feral pig population during recent years (I know parts of Texas are becoming quite overrun by them), you have to wonder if the increasing anecdotal reports of cougars are linked to the growing food supply of feral pigs. You know....here, we'll see our rabbit population soar, and then a year or two later the coyote population cycles up and the rabbit population cycles down. Why couldn't that be happening with cougars and deer/pigs. I know we are seeing more and more deer in our yard and our 'neighborhood' (it is hard to think of a rural area with widely spaced homes as a neighborhood in the traditional sense, but it is a neighborhood), so it seems natural that the predators that prey on them would follow.

We have so many deer here the last 18-24 months that if I didn't have a tall garden fence, I wouldn't have a garden at all.

Glenda, It is easy to suggest a suble approach when it is not your own inlaws! Hee hee. I can see where this might be a dilemma for Paula. For example, if they are living on family land that used to belong to her in-laws, then the in-lawns might still feel like it is 'their' land too, if you know what I mean. Boundaries. It is all about boundaries, whether you're dealing with cougars, deer or in-laws.

Dawn

Reminds me of our neighbors across the street. They are both older couples. The one couple travels a lot. They went off somewhere for a couple of weeks during the summer and told the other couple they could have whatever ripened in the garden while they were gone. Well, they came home to find their garden totally stripped of every tomato, red OR green.

I would be really hacked off if family or neighbors let themselves into my garden and took things. I wouldn't have anything to shoot at them but I could sure gripe at them. I wouldn't be scared of making anybody mad, I would already be mad and so they might as well go on the trip with me.

You guys are the BEST! Thanks for your support! Sure turned this post in a different direction!

You're right, Dawn. This was "family" land. My DH was given the 5 acres with home in 1998 when his parents retired to Eufaula. In 2003, they decided to move back and wanted their home signed back over to them. They gave DH 2 & 1/2 acres which he placed a "double-wide". His Dad helped build the decks, etc. It was around this time that we started dating so I was out here a LOT. Even helped roof the place! I think that's why he asked me to marry him because I'd already invested "sweat equity"! LOL. We married early 2006 and it's been a whole new world ever since. At first, they'd let themselves into our house during the day when we were at work. We changed to locks after we asked them to stop and they didn't. His mother has asked for one of our sofa's out of our living room (while she was sitting on it!). She also comes over within 5 minutes of seeing a new car in our drive just to be nosy. She's video-taped me out in our pool (we now have stockade fence around it placed 4 ft off the ground). And in fairness, the first jalepeno heist was right in front of me. She came over a couple of weeks ago asking for some jalepenos to "give away to the nice boy" that lives next door to my sister-in-law. My DH & I were prepping cukes to make jalepeno relish (my second batch). We told her we didn't have any extra. She sat and gabbed about nothing for almost an hour while we worked. As I left the room for a moment, she told my DH that she was leaving but first was going out to pick a few peppers and shot out the door. As I came back in the room, my DH was still spinning trying to find his shoes & shades! We took off out to the garden and she'd already picked 1/3 of a Walmart bag of peppers!!! After some interchange, she unwillingly gave me the bag. I of course, thought "Paula, don't be selfish" and gave her apprx. a dozen back. My DH then tried to divert her attention to the bells (on the other side of the okra). I followed and as I turned around she was feverishing picking any and every jalepeno left! I couldn't believe my eyes! When she saw me looking at her, she stopped, fumbled with the bag and promptly left the garden, walking back to her place calling out "Thanks & Talk to you later" over her shoulder. That afternoon, I had to go to Walmart and buy enough jalepeno's to finish my relish. Yes, it was about equal to what she'd taken. As you know, this weekend we went camping for 4 days. Tuesday my father in-law came over while I was @ work to talk to DH (who's laid off at the moment so he's home lots). With a twinkle in his eye, he asked DH if he noticed anything missing from our garden. He then proceeded to tell him how he'd come over in our absence to pick "a few" and how good they were and he forgot to wash his hands before he scratched his eyes. Personally, served him right! Maybe it could be a new cure for glaucoma? LOL. Anyway, last nite I picked every single pepper that was close to mature so I've got enough for my jelly. And you know what's sad? They have their own garden but didn't grow any variety of peppers!!!! Pop (father in-law)usually guilts me into putting up all the harvest because my mother-in-law won't and hates to do any of that. I did hang a sign at my opening garden gate that says, "If you didn't grow it...DON'T help yourself! Entry by Permission ONLY!". Maybe it will offend them and I won't have as many "drop-in" visits.

Carol - I'm growing pablano's too this year and they're late in producing. Got several that are about half the size of my fist so far and I'm letting them get bigger. Several years ago (when I lived in OKC) I had a bumper crop of them, but they didn't really start producing until this time of year either. I used to grow my own tabasco's for pepper sauce too. Next year (after the fence is installed) I'm going to increase my pepper population by about 5 times! I want some more colors, shapes and flavors to work with!

Got a good giggle out of "Paula Pepper Day"!!!! Thanks for letting me blow off some steam here.

Paula

Paula, grow a few plants for them next year (and put in their garden)...or even better, double plant, your garden and theirs, and then they will have everything you do :)

Lisa

Paula
I can't believe the utter CHUTZPAH of your inlaws! I'm not sure what I'd do in such a situation. But there is a limit! To impose on your own DS and DIL as they do goes way beyond any reasonable bounderies. I feel sorry for your DH, but looks like it may have to be him to set some bounderies, since otherwise, it's usually the DIL that gets the blame for any problems.

Barbara

PS: I think we need a new thread! Maybe a grievance thread where we can all vent.....
If this thread gets any longer I'll need to install cruise control on my scroll button.

Carol,
I will start a new thread and post my opinions about what peppers I grow and what I like in a pepper. I'm like you where I was raised Cilantro wasn't used any that I know of. Only after we moved to KS and the migrants started coming in did I learn about it. I feel it is more like American food varies with geographic areas. And the Mexican food I was raised on didn't have it. To me a little goes a long ways but that is probably because I'm not used to it. Like those that do.

Paula again I I want to state I hope you can get your problem settled. And I feel you frustrations. I have never shot anyone even with rock salt but knew of some that did when I was a youngster. Have fired a shotgun in the air close enough to scare a few intruders a couple of times. When they come onto my property taking something that belongs to me they are walking on the wrong side. If they knock on the door and ask I will probably loan it too them and help them load it. But when they start stealing then it is another matter. I find the lack of respect many have for others property shocking anymore. The other problem here is that most of the stealing is by those needing money for drugs and those who have went out and tried to talk to them have been threatened. And our law may show up an hour later if at all. Jay

Dawn,

I am a predator lover to a certain degree. Other than coyotes taking rabbits, I cheer for the killers here. I manage my places when possible to give the hawks and bobcats the advantage when going for the snakes and squirrels, as well as the foxes with the rats.

The deer populations in Oklahoma are probably higher than ever before in history, or at least close. A mountain lion here could live fat and happy. I have seven deer that eat sleep in my yard at night in the red clover that has exploded since the August rain. Now if they touch my blueberries I will kill every one of them (kidding), but they can have the other stuff in the garden.

I would make an exception probably for wolves, but all of the other predators I like to see increasing in numbers and in new places. That Florida cougar that had made it all the way up to Georgia was a really sad story to me. It probably used the newer artificial wildife tunnels to get past highways. I think that is pretty cool. Like the Florida cougar support groups say, the odds are just too stacked against them to have much chance to repopulate the southeast without trapping and moving and public acceptance. I did not know until recently that some serious study had been put into re-introduction and that the Ozarks of Arkansas came up as the best place to try it. The Arkansas wildlife people were very opposed, kind of like the wolves being opposed in Idaho and Wyoming when re-introductions happened there. I doubt it will ever happen. Missouri seems to me to be the only state nearby where the wildlife folks are receptive at all.

If anyone wants some peppers, they can come get some here. I can't keep up and over half just go bad. All kinds of them.

Ilene, Well, at least you know who to suspect if your garden produce goes missing.

Paula, I suspected it was a family land/boundaries issue because we have a lot of families here where several generations live on family land and such issues as you've encountered do arise. It is a very delicate balancing act sometimes to "get along" and yet maintain boundaries.

From here on out, you'll be known here as "Saint Paula" because certainly you must have the patience of a saint.

I'd take Lisa's suggestions and plant double in your garden next year (but don't tell 'them' that, or they'll think they can take twice as many) and I'd raise extra plants from seed and offer those plants to them. I know you said you are going to grow a lot more next year and I am glad. If they decline the extra plants, I'd tell them up front that you have big plans for canning all the peppers you raise and likely will not have a single one to share with them. Then, I'd offer the plants to them again. If they decline the plants again, put a lock on the gate and keep it locked all the time. All the time.

I'd do exactly the fence you described above and keep the hot wire on all the time. I'd make sure they never obtain a key to it for even a day (or they could copy it). And, if they squawk about that, I'd squawk back and say that you don't want 2-legged thieves (no need to mention that you mean 'them') stealing your food.

You probably cannot completely stop them from taking some of your peppers and they still may come into the garden (or kitchen) while you're in there and help themselves, but you can fight those battles individually as they arise.

When we lived in Fort Worth, we lived just a few houses up the road from my parents and I did have to work really hard to set boundaries with my mom and to make her respect them. (My dad wasn't a problem.)

When you plan your garden this winter/spring, why not invite them to plan their garden at the same time. If they don't raise their own seedlings, offer to raise seedlings for them and draw out a 'map' of their garden on paper. List what seedlings you'll raise for them and be sure to grow extra in case they decide they want "more". Maybe encouraging them to plan ahead and plant their own pepper plants (which you're going to raise for them up to the transplant stage) will take the pressure off you and your garden and your pepper plants.

Glad "Paula Pepper Day" made you smile. I would have mailed some jalapenos to you, too, you know.

Barb, I agree that it needs to be Paula's husband who tries to set the boundaries. With my husband's family, he tried, but his mom resisted his efforts and still blamed me. Sometimes there is no real solution if the other side insists on being difficult.

What would we call a grievance thread? Let me think about it and I'll start one. I don't know what I'll call it, but I'll put "September" in the title so y'all can find it.

Jay, I have learned that living in a rural area means that you have to be your own first responder....because quite often the local EMS, fire and law enforcement officers are a long way from you and their response time can be quite slow. I also know that you'd better have a gun and be ready to use it to protect yourself because help is not nearby. I'd be more likely to shoot a human trespasser than an animal one at our place because a human who was, say, breaking into our home would have come onto our land "with malice aforethought", whereas a wild animal roaming across the property is likely just trying to eat and survive.

The lack of respect for property (and lives!) these days is appalling. I may be more hard-line than someone who is not married to a cop, but I ALWAYS assume a stranger on our property is bad news. It is stupid to assume otherwise out here in the boonies because if you wrongly assume a "bad guy" is a "good guy", you could end up dead.

Dawn

Dawn, I agree. My DH has been a reserve for years but doesn't work the streets any longer. He now represents the Sheriff's office on the Drug Court Board so still stays involved with law enforcement. He spent about 5 years in the court system and I worked 2 years for the District Attorney, so what I am going to say comes for a little experience. I believe that police officers "try" to stop crime by being seen as much as possible, but unfortunate as it is, their main duty has becaome "taking reports", after a crime is committed. Hopefully their gathering procedure is good enough to find the criminal and the paperwork produced is strong enough to stand up in court and get a conviction. We live in a time when they just can't be expected to respond fast enough to stop all crime.

People get protective orders out the gazoo, trying to keep themselves safe from other people, but a protective order is a piece of paper and a bullet can go right through it. It is kind of like health, ultimately YOU are the person responsible for your own protection. Be careful out there.

We had a large communication outage this morning. It took out our phones and our internet service and lasted several hours. My cell phone still worked but most people's did not. In addition, people couldn't buy gas with credit cards, so it was definately affecting lives. Didn't help that it was on 9/11 so there was a little fear as well. It all came back up after a while but I think it was our entire town and more. At one time people were saying that it went all the way to Dallas, but my DH called our son in Fort Worth on his cell and he called OKC to one of his companies stores and we stopped that rumor. We live in a strange world. My DH went to Arkansas this afternoon and I told him to make sure he had plenty of cash because his credit card might not work.

Carol, Most cops spend so much time on paperwork that they hardly have time to be out on the streets. It is sad, but that is what our system has turned into.

There's a real lack of resources in small, lightly populated,poor counties like ours. I don't think the sherriff's deputies write reports at allwhile on shift. I believe the dispatcher keeps a log (a MANUAL log because we are still in the dark ages here) and they come in and fill out cursory reports at the end of the shift using the dispatcher's logs for basic facts. It drives Tim stark raving mad. His department is the opposite. They document everything to death.

I had a friend killed by a deranged former boyfriend (and she only went out with him for a brief period of time) who was stalking her. She went to court. She got the protective order. He had to wear one of those monitoring bracelets that set off an alarm at her house whenever he got within some distance of her home. The alarm went off when she was home alone. She decided to run jump into the car and flee so she wouldn't be there when he got there. He gunned her down in the driveway. So, you know, she tried to work through the system and it let her down.

Our county's emergency radio system seems to go out just about every day. It is old and no matter what they spend (I''m talking relatively small amounts), they can't keep it working right, and our 9-1-1 lines are just as pathetic. It is very frustrating. One of our neighbors had trouble getting through to 9-1-1 when she had a medical emergency at her home. Ever since then, she calls us and we radio it in. She says that even if the radio repeater is down when she calls us, at least she knows we'll come help them even if no one else does. She jokes with me and says "Everyone else calls 9-1-1. I just call Dawn and Tim." I worry that one of these days we'll have an emergency that is a really big deal and the communication system will be down.

Dawn

Yep, where we lived before we called DH the neighborhood husband. We had 3 widows who would all call him and a divorcee, but she was pretty independent. Guess that didn't work out too well since she was murdered in her home after we moved. Last I heard they had arrested her son.

Dawn, I think you are in the donut hole again. Looks like you have rain on 3 sides of you.

Carol,
I love the idea of the neighborhood husband. It was kind of like that in our Ft. Worth neighborhood. We were in our 20s/30s and our 'widows' were in their 70s/80s. It was sort of like having elderly aunts just down the road, especially since I'd known them my whole life (I grew up less than a block away from our home). Tim was always good natured about fixing things, mowing the yard, trimming trees, etc.

Yep! We've been in the doughnut hole on and off for over 24 hours. I don't mind it too much though because the 70s feel better than the 90s. Rain would be great, but every storm has the potential for hail, high wind, and fungus-spreading moisture, so I can go with the flow and be happy either way.

Tonight and tomorrow are supposed to be "our" time for rain. We'll see.

Tim called from the airport an hour or two ago and said they were getting pounded by rain. I looked at the radar and it was really, really red there. I haven't called him back to see if all is well there because he usually gets really busy when the weather goes nuts.

Dawn

Dawn - don't give up hope! We just watched the weather and you've got an 80% chance the next 2 days! Surely you'll get some!

DH just told me to tell you to tune in to your ABC affiliate. Their "Nightline" topic tonite is "Man vs Beast"! Yes, he chuckled....but he really has been concerned for you. The times they are a changin'....and sadly, you seem to be caught in the cross-hairs.

Scott, I hope you posted a "Do No Eat The Blueberries" sign for the deer. Our deer still come in the middle of the day and not at night. I don't like that one bit because it implies there is some reason they don't feel safe outside at night.

Paula, I have it on Nightline.

I saw an NBC commercial for Jay Leno's new show that made me laugh. In the commercial, he is sitting at a table with (presumably) a bunch of writers and is holding up sheets of posterboard with headlines, newstories, cartoons, etc.

One of them looks like it is from an old Boy Scout handbook or something. It shows two drawings. In one, a man is encountering a cougar. In the second, he is holding out his jacket with his arms while the cougar snarls at him. Clearly the image is telling you to try to make yourself appear larger and more threatening, right? What does Jay Leno say? Something like "Oh, yeah. If you're attacked by a cougar, protect yourself by flashing it!" It is hysterical. Well, it would be hysterical had this been a normal boring summer. I did kinda chuckle at it, but I didn't think it was as funny as other people in the room thought it was.

Tell your DH I am very, very careful because I really am. Anyway, it can't get me if I don't leave the house, right? (grinning as I say that) I do have 'tools' staged at specific places all over the yard....big metal fence posts, shovels, metal pipes, etc. So, if I ever walk outside without a weapon, I have all kinds of club-type things I can use. I wouldn't give up without a fight...and I do not believe one ever will attack me. If it was going to happen, it would have happened in July. That won't stop me from being careful though.

Tonight I left the dogs in the dog yard after dark and they were going absolutely insane around 9 p.m. because something was in the woods north of our house. However, since they act the same whether it is an armadillo or a fox or a coyote or a deer or whatever, you can't overreact to them acting crazy.

Dawn

Dawn
That Jay Leno thing was hysterical!!!!!!!! I'm still cracking up !

Here's something else I think you will be able to relate to, considering all you've been through this summer. It's not meant to be funny because of the seriousness of what the letter concerns, but read it and you'll see. This is crux of the issue!

This is a real letter that was sent to Nancy Ledbetter, as follows:

Nancy S. Ledbetter
Director of Communications
Arkansas Game and Fish Commission
2 Natural Resources Drive
Little Rock, Arkansas 72205
[mailed at 6:10 a.m. on 08/06/2003]
Ms. Ledbetter,

As a resident of rural north central Arkansas, I would appreciate for my safety and that of my family, a clarification of the mountain lion position statement. Am I to conclude from this statement that: there are NO mountain lions of which there are some? Or, is it that: there are SOME mountain lions of which there are none?

I'm not nearly as concerned about "endangered Florida panthers" as I am about endangered Searcy County residents, namely me, my family and our beloved neighbors.

If any of my family were attacked, savagely torn apart and killed by a large cat, as recently happened to one of my neighbors, we're not going to care if it's a puma concolor coryi or a pussypuss humongous. Nor will we be concerned with whether or not it came from a breeding population.

There has been much controversy regarding the cause of the tragic death of our neighbor. One thing I know for sure is that not one bit of it that I've heard has had to do with what kind of large cat is responsible. Not once have I heard the term "breeding population." The controversy is over whether she was killed by a large cat or by some other means.

I just checked Webster's definition of "game." Any cat that may have killed our neighbor does not meet any of the definitions of the word. One might argue then, that A.G. & F.C. has nothing to do with this matter. I only know I was disappointed by your ambiguous position statement. My question now is, does A.G. & F.C. have or hold a position on what caused the death of my neighbor?

Thanks for your consideration.

Dave Foley
Gilbert, Arkansas

Barb,

I remember very well the story of that young woman. Her name was Leigh Ann Cox, and she was living with her sister and brother-in-law, I believe, and was doing gardening work in the middle of the afternoon while they were gone. They arrived home later in the evening to find she had been savagely attacked and killed. In shock, and assuming that their large dogs had killed her (because "we don't have mountain lions here"), the homeowner shot and killed two of his own dogs before someone stopped him by telling him they didn't think his dogs did it.

The whole thing turned into a disaster with the rural Sherriff's Dept. taking the position the dogs did it. Once they took that position nothing would persuade them to reconsider it. It was just a really huge controversy at the time. Do I think it was a mountain lion? Heck yes.

Now I have to find the story and link it.

OK, found it and linked it. Page down to May 2003.

I feel really terrible for her family. First, they lost her which was bad enough and then they had to deal with what many believed was a coverup and stonewalling by local and state officials.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: The Attack on Leigh Ann Cox

I was wondering if I might get a clarification on something Scott said, which sounded like he was saying that mountain lions only roar if they're female and in heat, once a year or so.

If that's the case, I'd have a hard time believing it, as I went to a big cat sanctuary once that had 20 or so mountain lions and several roared while we were there. Nearly all of them snarled nastily. Unpleasant, vicious-acting animals. The liger was much nicer even though it peed on me! I left rather unimpressed with the nobility of the beasts, though I was impressed with how uniformly dangerous they seemed.

Anyway, maybe I am misidentifying what's being called a "mountain lion roar". Can someone post a link to what the experts agree is this roar? Perhaps it's a different sound than the lions were making at the cat sanctuary.

Considering the number of "screams' and 'roars' that Dawn and her neighbors hear frequently, as well as have heard over the years, if that were true, we'd be led to assume that there was indeed quite a large 'reproducing population' in Dawn's area.

~Barb~

Game bird,

I don't think I remember Scott making that statement, but then my memory isn't as good as it used to be.

When I have heard them in the wilds of Oklahoma (LOL), it is much more of a shriek or a scream. I don't know a better way to describe it. I do think that, scientifically, it is not considered a roar...and it probably has to do with how they use (or don't use) their hyloid bone to make a sound. I don't remember enough about it to describe it.

In captivity, they do seem pretty vocal and do lots of snarling, etc. Some people say they purr, but I assume that if that is true, that it must apply to them when in captivity.

To me, there is a certain generic sound they make, but I have heard variations from far away....some sound longer, some sound shorter, some sound much more high pitched at the end.

The one I heard up close several years ago in the dark of the night was a long, drawn-out shriek that sounded, near the end, like a woman screaming.

I've linked the sound of one below.

If you go back up this thread, you'll find a link Barbara posted that has numerous cougar sounds.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Mountain Lion

Dawn I'm sure this is what Gamebird is referring to. And I hope Scott doesn't mind me copying and pasting it down here. He says that is what they say and he hasn't really looked into it. I have read something similar and then read those who disagree. And I can't say for sure. I know on clear nights in NM you could here a sound and the old ranchers would say that is a lion. Always lions where I was raised. I never heard them called a cougar till this came up. Cats were bobcats. A lynx was called a lynx cat. Just what they called them in that area. But if you've heard the sound on a clear night you will never mistake it. Jay

Posted by scottokla (My Page) on Wed, Sep 9, 09 at 22:50
Look for gray fox scream recordings and recordings of raccoons fighting if you can find them. Those might be similar, as that is what one of the Cougar groups says is often mistaken. They also say that only female cougars make that sound and only in the few days every couple of years when they are in heat. I have not really looked into it, so I don't know anything about it myself.
On another note, just where in your county have the alligators been found? Love County is listed as one of just a few where they have been verified, but I cannot find out from anyone where they were or how many.

Jay
Yea, that's the post where he was repeating what he'd heard the Cougar groups claim about a female Cougar only making those loud screams when their in heat.
Makes you wonder just HOW they know! Only a danged fool would go sneaking around in the wild trying to get a recording of ANY Cougar, let alone a female in heat, with the possibility of one or more males heading her direction.

Gamebird
IF recordings were made when a female Cougar was in heat, they probably were made at zoos or sanctuaries.....and from a safe distance, lol! Just as those no doubt were on the link I posted previously.

Have to agree with your comment about their vicious nature. Stone cold killers they are.

One man described a Cougars eye's as 'transforming' into something he could only describe as 'very evil' just at the moment it attacked him. Reminded me of the painting of St. Ignacious as he was being fed to the beasts. Somehow, the artist managed to capture in that painting, a very evil, even demonic 'look' of the cat that had his fangs implanted in St. Ignacious neck. I'll never forget that in my mind's eye!

Dawn
The link you posted was not the one I did. This is the one I'd posted. No problem, but I don't think these are as helpful or descriptive of what you and your neighbor's hear, Dawn. The point is that apparently, it's ONLY the big cats such as Cougars, lions, etc, that have the ability to issue such LOUD screams heard from great distances.
The small wild cats, such as lynx and bobcats do not.
Their vocal chords are more like our Felinicus Domesticus.

If indeed, that's the fact, it should be even more verification, and concern, to you as well as your neighbors, that the screams you hear are NOT coming from small wild cats such as bobcats.

Nevertheless, it may very well be true what Scott said the Cougar groups claim......which goes back to my posts indicating that if female Cougars only emit this loud scream during mating season, that there very well may be reproducing populations in your area.

By the way, what's the latest update on the trap? Moved or still in the same place?
Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: Cougar, Big Cats, and other animal sounds

Barbara,
All I know is the old cowboys would hear them at night and would tell you about how close they were and what canyon they were likely in. My Dad and most cowboys liked to either set out at night or go for a walk. They said the sounds of night told them as much as they saw during the day. And if they felt they were close they would go looking for sign and be on the lookout. And then as I got older I was told they couldn't of been hearing a lion. So Scott isn't the first to state that. But I know some cowboys that would dispute that. I know this. You let that sound travel and the coyotes and everything went silent as Dawn says. And then you could really hear it. As that would be the only sound you would hear. Jay

Barbara,

I knew the link I posted was a different one, but that is why I told her to look further back in the thread to find yours too. The sound when this link comes up is the closest one I found to the soundfile Ohyousooners emailed me after hearing a cougar in our neighborhood one morning recently.

I googled and found all kinds of cougar and fox screams, roars, snarls, etc. and listened to them this afternoon. It drove my animals (trapped inside with me by the rain) nuts. The cats mostly ignored it after a couple of minutes, but the dogs were in my face looking down at my laptop computer trying to find the wild animals they were hearing. Jersey, in particular, did everything but climb into my lap (she's a big dog) trying to locate the fox. None of the fox sounds resemble what I've heard and really didn't even come close. Many of the online cougar sounds are very similar to what I heard.

Lots of scientific sources say female cougars scream in heat so males can find them (I know there is a people-related joke in there somewhere but I can't think of it) and I don't doubt that at all, but I don't think it is the only time they scream. I saw them on some Youtube videos screaming (or hissing or snarling or growling) while fighting one another or bears.

The trap is still there today in more or less the same area that it has been. The rooster still lives and crows. I still don't think a cougar would go through that narrow door though unless it is a really young cougar.

Jay, The one that roared at two of my neighbors just a bit south of us the other day screamed three fairly short screams in succession. The one I heard years ago was one long piercing scream. I am sure the different sounds mean different things in cougar language. I just interpret them all to say the same thing: danger!

Maybe with all the rain (not that it is a lot in terms of inches, but the ground is wet) we'll get some verifiable tracks.

Dawn

Jay
Sound does seem to travel greater distances at night when all is quiet. And I'll bet those old cowboys had to be pretty savvy to live on that wild land the way they did. My own dad was a NM cowboy in his early youth, traveling miles and miles on horseback, from line shack to line shack and tending windmills and the like on some ranch out there. Which one I don't know.

Dawn, you no doubt know better than 99% of the humans in Oklahoma and most other states what a Cougar sounds like. As you've said, it's really unmistakable.

I was wondering about the trap. Perhaps maybe it's time for the Wildlife people to realize they need a bigger, less confining trap. I would think Big cats such as a Cougar would be leary of entering such an obviously small trap. Expecially-if it/ or they have ever been in captivity. They would know a trap or cage when they see one. Does that make sense?

Barb

Barb,
Yes and with canyon wall a lot of sounds echo out of them. And some of the camps are in the canyons or at the mouth. Those cowboys could hear when a fight and killing was taking place. And from the sounds they would tell you what was making the sounds. And could tell a lot of the times what the animal was being killed. If a cow ect and at night they would go searching the next day. They all carry guns on their saddles. I remember my Dad and uncles talking about riding at night and seeing a lion. As far as I remember they never had any trouble with them. personally like we hear about today. Jay

Dawn and Barb, If the door to the trap is too small for a cougar to want to enter, then they can't catch one can they? And if they don't catch one, they can't confirm that they exist can they?

"Here's your sign......" But....DUH!

Carol, you crack me up!

pk

LOLOL!!
Carol does have a way with words and humor that leaves me rolling in the floor at times! She could have been a detective too!

But really...you think these WL guys are that smart?

However, the Arkansas Game and Fish person that came to talk to Leigh Ann Cox's sister after Leigh Ann's horrible death at the mercy of A COUGAR, told her, "Even if you could PROVE that a big cat killed Leigh Ann, our official position would still be that dogs did it", (he added)" Do you understand what I'm saying?" Then he said it again, "Do you understand what I'm saying?"

There is a feeling amongst certain Arkansas residents that it's not a denial, per se, but a deliberate cover up. That AG&FC deliberately released Cougars into Arkansas, but are 'officially' denying it. If so, why? Environmental correctness?

This isn't just me making this up. It's on the website about the surroundings of Leigh Ann's tragic death. But I ask you, if that's what their doing, how fair is that to the residents in the area, who will then be left oblivious to the danger to them, their pets and livestock?

Finally.......how hard can it be to make a strong enough and large enough TRAP to contain both a large cat and a small chicken or rabbit?

Barb

Hi Y'all,

Have we ever had a thread get to 130 posts before? This thread just won't die.

Carol, Good point and I had thought about that....had wondered if the really "want to" catch one.

PK, in another life, I bet Carol was a comedian.

Barb, "If so, why?" My answer would be "legal liability". If ANY group released cougars anywhere and one of those cougars killed a person, the personal injury attorneys would be lined up to sue on behalf of the deceased person's estate. Can you imagine?

With regards to the Leigh Ann Cox case, I am really bothered by the entire chain of events. Even after a cougar expert consulted by the family said her wounds were consistent with those of a cougar and that his opinion was a cougar had killed her, the state still remained in 'denial' or coverup mode or whatever. I believe this family deserved better assistance/support than they got from the officials in Arkansas.

I first read about Leigh Ann in a letter her brother-in-law had written to Countryside magazine in the mid-2000s--maybe in 2004 or 2005---detailing what they'd gone through. I wish I'd saved that issue. (It's probably compost by this point!)

I think what Arkansas residents took away from the Cox case was that they all had better take care of themselves because their wildlife and law enforcement officers weren't taking the cougar threat seriously.

I know Owiebrain's family has seen cougars on/near their place and they are close to the OK/ARK state line.

The trap isn't that fancy. Go back and look at the photo of the trapped bobcat above Just a big square cage. Inside the cage is a small cage for the live bait animal. The small cage has a trap door type roof so you can open it and feed the rooster (or other animal), remove it, etc. The narrow entry door for the target predator animal is on one side of the cage. Tim said that when the animal steps into the cage through that door, some sort of triggering mechanism causes the door to close. Something that looked like a piece of plywood was on the floor of the trap near the door, so I assume they step on that wood and it triggers the door somehow.

The first timeI saw the trap, pretty much the next thing out of my mouth after I repeatedly stated that the animal in the cage was not 'my' animal and that it was much too small, was that I thought the trap we were looking at was too small for a cougar anyway. I just can't imagine a cougaar would go in through that narrow doorway. Maybe I am wrong, but it seemed about the right size for your average coyote, but not for a cougar.

Dawn

New official position will probably be something like this, "We put out a trap down there in Love county where they claimed all of those siteings, and kept it out for three weeks, but didn't catch anything but a little bobcat kitten."

I believe all threads die at 150, so this one may make it.

Does OK hire or have men with tracking dogs? I know they use them in CO and NM. A man who lived two miles west of my plant kept dogs and did it for years. He passed away a few years ago. He did some to work his dogs on area ranches. Hired out to others and then the CO wildlife dept. hired him some. I know he traveled some. They said if you could get his dogs on them while the scent was fresh they could usually track them and for sure would follow till good tracks and signs could be found. With the two crossing the road you would of thought they would of brought dogs in and put on the trail. In the link Scott posted from CO on the other thread it mentions tracking them. Same way in AR. Seems to me they aren't too interested in finding and confirming them. JMO. Jay

I don't think they really want to find a cougar here either. I don't know if OK has tracking dogs that are trained to track wild animals, but I'd bet they don't.

I don't think there is any way to know what anyone is thinking because Dawn has not spoken with the wildlife people, and she is the only one with a reliable sighting. Unless Dawn relays her details directly to the wildlife people, they will not take this one any more seriously than the other hundreds they get each year. They have already caught a bobcat that looks like a cougar and was a likely cuprit in some of the losses, and unless someone who seems convincing speaks with them, they can't really devote a bunch of time or money to the issue in Spetember with all the things they have going on right now. Dawn is the key.

Go for it, Dawn. Convince them that there is a strong chance you have a mountain lion STAYING in the area. They may go beyond the normal response if they really are convinced that there might be a mountain lion staying in the area, and I get the feeling that your neighbors are not the ones that can convince them.

I'm not the only one with a reliable sighting, although I'm the only one that posts here. (Rickey has a 'hearing' but not a 'sighting' unless something's happened in the last three days that I don't know about.) The other people who've seen them just won't talk about it to people outside their immediate family or circle of close personal friends who live nearby and who have a need to know so they can watch their animals and children closely.

People here have been told that 'we don't have cougars here' for so long that they will not talk to "the authorities". Some of these people have told me that they don't want for people 'to think I am crazy'. I understand how they feel.

While I am sure the little bobcat with the atypical coloring and longer tail might have taken some of the poultry and/or cats/small dogs, it was too skinny and small to be responsible for all of them. Just on our street and the adjacent one, there's at least 60 or so chickens and guineas that have been eaten this year, and a half-dozen cats/small dogs.

Tim has spoken directly with the officer who monitors the trap. I don't think it would make any difference for me to talk to them at this point. I think they're doing all they are going to do. If I see a cougar on our property again, I'll call them. I still don't especially want to be in anyone's database as having had a cougar sighting on our property for reasons discussed before. We already have a massive problem with idiots spotlightling from our roadway and creeping onto our property to hunt deer. We certainly don't need anyone creeping around in the woods who wants to shoot a cougar, and if you think there aren't people here who'd do that, you don't know rural Love County. We have to run off enough would-be (illegal) deerhunters as it is.

Dawn

Is the rooster still crowing? The trap still there?

Rickey,

The rooster still lives and crows and the trap is still there, but perhaps not much longer. Bill has called the last couple of days and expressed frustration with the situation.

They caught another bobcat 2 days ago (smaller and with more normal coloring and a more normal tail) and then turned it loose. Bill called to warn us the wildlife guy released it right there at the trap location. It promptly came into our yard and killed a chicken the next day (yesterday). I found bobcat tracks in my garden this morning that weren't there last night, so my cats are inside the house or on the screened-in back porch today and not happy about it.

Bill and Tim have discussed what to do next and are trying to formulate a plan to keep their/our animals and grandchildren safe.

Since the trap seems too small for a cougar, and the wildlife guy keeps releasing the bobcats, there doesn't seem much point in leaving it there.

Bill has friends who have some traps they own and he is taking about borrowing those and trying to trap whatever is killing his kitties and just dealing with it himself. He seems to have given up on the idea that the wildlife folks are going to be of any real assistance in this area. I understand that they have the trap out for a cougar and that is all they're interested in, but having them release a trapped bobcat back into the yard to keep killing our animals is not winning them any points with Bill's family or ours.

Watch your little dogs!

Have you heard any more interesting sounds lately? As far as I know, no one on our stretch of the road has seen or heard a cougar this week, unless you have. No one here is hearing coyotes either. It is eerily quiet.

Dawn

I have not heard it again and hope I never do. If I could find the material to build a trap like that my neighber and myself are going to build one. Have you been see deer lately?
We have not seen them like last year. I bought another trail cam thought my old one had died, but come to find out it still works but LCD display was all that died I will have 2 set out this year so maybe can get some good pics. Last year I got probaly 1000 deer pics the same 9 deer visited every day.
Got several of the pair of gray fox that hang around here and of course coyotes raccoons squirel crows. Got to get ready for work my the way I am ready for this rain to stop for a while

Rickey,

I understand exactly how you feel. The scream/roar of a cougar stays in your head forever.

I have had two does bringing their fawns around noon about every other day. They usually come at night so it is odd for them to be out midday. This week I put out corn for them and they aren't coming, so something has scared them.

It could be they were coming for the water in the pond and don't "have to" come here any more because there is water everywhere now. However, they did like to check the compost pile for kitchen scraps. They may not "know" yet that I put the deer corn out for them, but the crows and doves found it this morning.

I usually only see one gray fox and it is running up the road in our direction from yours. Maybe it is out hunting.

I have developed a fondness for the crows. Back when we let the chickens and guineas free-range, the crows would spend the entire day chasing away hawks and owls and keeping the chickens and guineas safe. I think it is because the crows come to eat the hen scratch and have become territorial.

We're going to get a trail cam soon. Got any recommendations?

I'm ready for the rain to stop too. Our gravel driveway is a muddy disaster area right now.

Don't work too hard!

Dawn

A friend of mine stopped by to chat while I was out in the garden today. I guess I hadn't seen him or talked with him in about a month.

He said he stopped by to make sure I hadn't been devoured by a cougar, and to ask me if I'd heard about the cougar seen in the Thackerville area. (Thackerville is only 4 or 5 miles south of us.)

He said a cougar was seen dragging a deer across a local road in Thackerville. I just sighed and said, "Well, that it what they eat, you know." He said this happened just within the last couple of days. So, we know that sightings continue to occur.

Our dogs, cats and chickens have been very nervous the last 48 hours but, of course, we have no way of knowing which kind of wild animal is making them crazy. Yellow Cat continues to spend most of his time up on the roof, except when he is in the garden with me. Whatever he's seeing, apparently he doesn't think it can get him if he's up on the roof.

Dawn

If a lion dragged a deer across the road then why dosn't someone (or three) just go down there (with a gun) and find the dead deer. The remains will still be there in the immeditate and there will be lion scat and sign everywhere to give immediate proof of the lion. Then the wildlife department will get extremely serious in a hurry.

It's not complicated!!! Just somebody show them the signs and prove it too them.

Scott - I soooo understand and hear ya! It's not rocket science! Somebody get a CLUE! But Dawn lives in the area that IS what it is. Sometimes one just has to deal with it the best they can given the circumstances. And I think Dawn has already understood this. It's just so frustrating for the rest of us that see things differently than her "locals". We just have to continue to pray for her safety.

AND WE WILL! Her DH, Tim, isn't going to let this go far without a fight. I've got faith.

Scott,

The general attitude here is that the cougars are supposed to eat deer, so why report it?

They guy who told me about it just basically wanted me to know about it so I would remain careful and vigilant.

To repeat what I said earlier, most of the old-timers here aren't going to report anything to wildlife management folks because they'd rather handle it themselves.

And, just to make you nuts, Scott, this same guy told me that the cougars are here and have been here for as long as he can remember....and I think he is in his early 90s. He grew up on property directly adjacent to the river, and still has a house there. Here's the statement that will make you nuts: He told me that he himself personally was told by a wildlife management person that cougars were secretly released in Oklahoma counties, including here, with high deer populations to control the deer. I tried to have a civil discussion with him about how unlikely this was, but he was adamant that he had been told this himself by a game officer. And, no, I didn't ask which one because doing so would likely have upset this sweet old man (because it would have implied I thought he was making it up) and you can only push one of these old guys so far, and I felt I about pushed this topic as far as I could yesterday.

Y'all need to remember too, that most people don't want for cougars to be found here....so no one is calling wildlife management and saying come and get it!

Paula, Tim keeps guns handy now much more so than in the past. Personally, I'd rather have one trapped and removed than shot, but if one is attacking one of our animals and we are at home, I'm sure we'll shoot it in an effort to save the domestic animal.

Dawn

Dawn

This is getting more scary by the day. my neighber told me last night he thought he heard it again, but this time more of a growl. since there have been at least 3 people who have made a sighting I have no doubt there is one or two in the area. I don,t go out far past the house without a gun. I learned the other day there is a man who raises goats right before you get to the railroad underpass that has lost 3 baby goats lately with no sign of carcass. Was it Fred who you talked to? If so the next time I see his son Billy Fred out i will ask him about what he knows. Lets hope some one kills this thing before it attacks a human.Stay safe

Rickey

It seems that some here continue to overlook the obvious,
the people of our country and in particular Love county Okla, seem to have voted no confidence in some of our government officials, both elected and appointed.
Why would anyone subject them-self's to the sly smiles and condescending attitude of some of these officials if they don't absolutely have to.
So many of these Public officials make you not want to be around them, it doesn't take an expert to note their words, facial expressions, and body language.
About five years ago I was the first one at an accident, in a small town in eastern Okla, where Highway 270 goes through the town,
It took at least 15 minutes for the police to arrive and bear in mind this is in the city limits. A woman with a small child pulled out in front of a truck, and though they weren't hurt real bad I called the ambulance, got some guys to direct traffic, every thing was safe and was going smooth, and when some of the witness's that were just passing through this area told me they where not going to wait on the police any longer I had them write there information down so I could give it to give to the police if they ever came.

The ambulance arrived and was taking care of the lady and child, when the police finally came. traffic was moving good so I approached the policeman,(two cars arrived at the same time) I tried to tell him what I knew about the situation and to give him the information that the witness's had left but he wasn't interested.
Now I realize that sometimes these people are overworked, but from the beginning this "Law officer" had a smart mouth and an arrogant attitude, So I left, just thanking God those two people had not been hurt bad and have to depend on them.
The next day the one in charge was interviewed by the newspaper about the accident and he told them that they where at the scene in less then 5 minutes and had had constant problems with "civilians" getting in the way and interfering with the investigation; What a pack of lies, he was just interested in making himself look good to the press.
I suppose if I where at another accident I would stop and help again, but as soon as the police came I would leave.

I have also had occasion to talk to state game officials over the years and they always seem to have a condescending attitude, its as if no one can possibly have any knowledge of anything if you don't belong to their organization.
I truly do not understand why some people have to be this way, it's as if its one of the rules for being employed by the government.

Now I know there are some good Policeman and Politicians out there but so many of them are arrogant and condescending, that they make the rest look bad.

Its been my life's experience's, (and many others I suspect)
that its best not to have any dealings with them if you don't absolutely have to.
You know the sad part about the attitudes of some off our officials and in particular law enforcement people, is that over the years trust has been breaking down between them and the "civilians" (as they like to call us) of this great country, and where that can lead to we don't want to go.

James.

A related issue that I ought to cross-post to the pet peeves thread is when people insist that the only person worth listening to about something is an "expert" or government official. Now when we're talking about something the speaker wouldn't know much about, then I'll agree we should leave it to the experts. But when the topic of conversation is the speaker's eye-witness testimony, personal experience, what they saw with their own eyes, then the "expert" is THEM. Not some fellow sitting in an office or driving a truck around 100 miles away.

So if I say I saw three dinosaurs walk across the road, the expert about what I saw is ME. Maybe we'll find out later they were escaped komodo dragons or people in costumes playing a prank or whatever, but the testimony should be taken as exactly what it is - someone thought they saw something that looked like ______. An outside "expert" or government official or internet armchair generals can say how likely or unlikely the person's conclusions are, or give ideas about what they might have really seen, but to say the person didn't see it, or that there wasn't anything remotely like what they saw out there for them to see is calling them a liar. And that's wrong. You just don't do that in polite conversation.

We have gotten a little off topic here, but this thread is about to die anyway so I guess it's OK to post this.

My DH and I were driving north on Hiway 69 through Pryor one night. A truck pulled into our lane and the left front lugs on her big 18 wheeler cut circular dents from just behind the passenger door to the back tail light of his Avalanche. She didn't stop. We were in a brand new truck and we were not going to let her get away with it. We chased her down and about two miles later, and many attempts to get her to pull over, she finally stopped. Her husband was in the truck with her and they didn't get out of the truck until long after the officer arrived so I suspected they were catching up on their log books. Anyway, you could see the paint on her lug nuts, but she didn't get a ticket because we couldn't tell them in "exactly" what spot it happen, in the town. Now if we had gone back into the town we probably could have told them, but we couldn't describe it exactly so they could be sure. The husband of the driver disputed where my DH said it happened so he wouldn't get a ticket. She had told us that he was asleep. I think they knew how this worked and kept driving because of that fact. So if you have a hit and run, make sure you know where it happened.

The company didn't want us to file an insurance claim until my DH told them the attorney we contacted told us to demand a rental car while our truck was in the shop. The trucking company didn't want to pay for one, so we filed against their insurance company and they paid it.

I think some officers are interested and try to do a good job, but others could care less. I have had dealings with government officials that made me feel the same way, but having been a government employee for most of my life, I have to say that not all of us were that way. LOL

We can soon say goodbye to this thread because we are about to max it out.

Rickey,

Of course it was Fred. Who else his age is out driving around visiting gardeners in the middle of the afternoon? LOL If you see Billy Fred, do see if you can find out what he knows because he may know more details. Nowadays, when I ask Fred "who" he is talking about, he often can't remember names and will say something like 'you know...that guy that lives over yonder' and, of course, I have no clue who he means. Having said that, I hope that when I am Fred's age (and I'm not sure what it is but think right around 90?) I still get around as well as he does. Sometimes I do have to get Billy Fred to tell me who his dad is talking about because, while Fred always seems to have his facts straight, he does have trouble remembering names now and then.

I had wondered about those goats....about how he keeps them safe because I've never seen any kind of guardian dog like a Great Pyrenees out there with them.

I heard a loud growling this morning from the woods oddly enough (and I was inside the house and it sounded like it was right there in the room with me!) and it about scared me to death. As far away as your house is from ours, it is odd we've both heard that growling sound recently. It isn't like we're so close geographically that we'd hear the same growl at the same time. I've never heard this sound before and I pretty much thought I'd heard everything there is to hear around here. The dogs were going nuts in their dog yard, and I ran downstairs and didn't see a thing, but the cats were on the porch wanting to come inside. After that growling sound, I canceled my plans to work in the yard.

James, I feel like much of what you say is true, but we have both good and bad government employees and always will. I know sometimes the local wildlife people seem to say whatever the 'official' story line is but their eyes and body language are telling you something else. Our local law enforcement officers are pretty good about telling us to 'do what you have to do' to stay safe, because they know they can't be everywhere at once. They also come as quickly as they can when called, but with only 1 or 2 or 3 county deputies/reserve deputies on duty at a time, their response time can be frustratingly slow.

Game bird,

I promise, if you tell me you see three dinosaurs crossing the road, I'll believe you.

And. on a funnier note....Chris was 15 when we moved here and had a huge iguana named Alex. He built Alex a nice roomy outdoor pen, but somehow Alex would escape and run around although he always came back to the cage when he was hungry. We alerted our neighbors, and I showed Alex to Bill one day. We were watching Alex from the road and he climbed to the top of the pecan tree, which was then losing its leaves for autumn, so you could see Alex very clearly. At that point he was about 5' long. When Bill saw him, he said he needed to warn his wife and daughters because he feared they'd about run off the road and wreck their vehicles if Alex ever ran out into the road in front of them. Bill was afraid the women in his family would think Alex was an alligator.

Carol,

I do think a lot of people know exactly how to play the system.

Tim and Chris both work at D-FW Airport, which is incorporated just like a city, and has a large Department of Public Safety consisting of police, fire and emergency medical personnel employees. Their department has several hundred employees and most are wonderful, but there are a couple that of virtually worthless. How people like that keep their jobs is just beyond me.

Dawn

I think we will be saying bye-bye to the thread when we would much rather be saying bye-bye to the cougar. However, we are all much wiser and hopefully safer as a result of this discussion.