After I posted the above, I thought to myself that a better subject would have been that "Newer Commercial Varieties Aren't As Nutritious As Olders Ones", but you can't change a title once you've posted it.

I actually think the nutritional issue is two-fold----newer commercial varieties are grown for productivity, shipping and shelf life, and most are grown using commercial techniques that leave them less nutritious too. I know that we discussed this issue earlier this summer and there are studies that show organic foods are higher in nutrients, especially antioxidants, and other studies that show they aren't.

Dawn

Dawn
I think most of us here on GW realize that when you buy ANYTHING along the line of produce or processed food at the supermarket, you don't know what the heck is in it, or whether or not it's been GMO'd.

Chemical fertilizers? I don't know whether anyone saw this or not, but Sunday there was an article on the AOL homepage about dogs dying and people getting sick from the decaying algae bloom on ponds, and lakes. Probably from fertilizer runoff.

It's sickening to think what's happening in this country. Strange that in Romania and countries like that where they follow the old ways, nutritional foods and livestock are still grown and harvested, and you don't see this kind of damage to the environment.

Barbara

The old ways would not feed today's populations, and I believe many more people got sick or died from the old methods than the methods we have today. I know I would be much more likely to do something wrong trying to raise and store all of my own meat, vegetables, grain, and fruit than if I let professionals do it.

I have spent a couple of weeks in Russia and their old methods cause much more damage than today's modern methods. Our US farmers and ranchers are second to none when it comes to ethics, morals, and respect for what they raise and the people who consume it.

Well, Now I double goofed. George told me how to copy and paste the article and I did before I saw that it was prohibited and before I saw that you did find how to link. So now if I knew of any way to remove my post I would.

Barb,

Is the article you're talking about the one that was on Yahoo and which talked about the blue-green algae in the upper Midwest and parts of the PNW, dead dogs, sick people, stinky water, prohibited swimming, etc. and the link to excess phosphorus runoff from fertilizer? I did see that, although I don't remember if the article was specific to commercial agriculture being the source of the excess fertilizer runoff or if it was people fertilizing their yards. Either way, it sounded pretty bad. And, of course, their drought-type weather was contributing to the issue because the water was stagnant which allowed the algae to proliferate.

Scott, I'll agree with you that individual farmers and ranchers farming/ranching on land they own or lease do tend to have the highest ethics and a very high regard for the land and all its inhabitants. I am not as confident that managers of the big commercially owned/operated mega-farms operate the same way though. I bet most fertilizer runoff comes from homeowners and residents who overfertilize their own land as they strive for that perfect golf-course type lawn. (I'm not saying all homeowners overfeed, but lots do.)

With the costs of inputs being so high, it wouldn't make sense for a farmer to waste his inputs by overfertilizing just to have the excess fertilizer wash off into waterways.

I think people can raise and store their own food safely and more safely than commercial agriculture if they are serious about it and adhere to safe food handling/storage rules. The reason why? Because they are going to be ultra-careful to ensure they don't do anything to that food which harms their family. They are accountable to themselves and their families for every bit of food they raise and process. One problem in commercial agriculture is that contamination occurs and very seldom is anyone really held accountable. If you have e coli in meat in the commercial food chain, who gets held accountable? Who is even able to figure out where the contamination occurred? At the original ranch where the meat was raised? The CAFO where it was finished? The wholesaler? The shipper? The retailer? As the food products get passed along, I think accountability sometimes becomes impossible to maintain.

I have three freezers full of food put up for winter, and about 120 jars of canned stuff and a lot of onions/potatoes in the root cellar that I have raised and put up this summer and fall and because of all that stored food, we'll be buying less at the grocery store. When we raise and process our food ourselves we are very careful about the quality/safety every step of the way. If I could raise/put up 100% of our food, I would. I'm just content to raise enough that we'll be able to have part of each meal from food raised on our land.

Dorothy, Well, OK, so now you're human like everyone else. LOL I wouldn't worry about the article. It'll roll on down the page and everyone will forget it.

Dawn

I agree with Scott. The USA has the safest and best food supply in the world. Without commercial agriculture we would have huge food shortages and very expensive food. We raise wheat and beef, and although we use herbicides, commercial fertilizer and pesticides we only use what is absolutely necessary to insure a crop. Farmers, even large manager run operations can not afford to use excessive amount of fertilizer, etc. People trying to keep their home landscapes are much more likely to overuse these products simply because of economics.

I try to raise my garden crops organically but realize that most Americans could not afford to feed their families if all of our food was raised organically. You will die from starvation much faster than from non-organically raised food. Think of all the difficulties we have all discussed this summer involved in raising our gardens and imagine trying to overcome all of those organically on large acreages. Possible yes, but also very labor intensive.
Farmers are not out to poison us, just to feed us and much of the rest of the world and make a living.:)

Jan

I guess I should say that I am generally really careful about what I consume and what I put on my plants. I don't eat many vegetables out of season and there are some things I am very hesitant to buy. I am not too concerned about whether something is organic or not though. Manure is the most dangerous thing that can come in contact with our food and manure played a major role in most old farming ways.

I really believe that far fewer people (as a percent) get sick from what they eat today compared with every generation before us, and this is specifically due to modern agriculture and processing. What we have today that we didn't have in all those previous generations is the instant media and the competition among the media for attention and therefore the sensationalism.

That said, I still don't put insecticides and fungicides on my veggies.

AS I may have mentioned before my middle daughter was born in Italy in Jan in 99. I spent a month there until the middle of Feb. Italy is a very very crowded country. What struck me about it was the multitude of small garden plots, small greenhouses and cold frames, hoop tunnels etc. It was incredible. And even though it was a very cold winter--with a low of 13 f--many of those tunnels and cold frames had green crops in them. (We didn't get to try any of that food, but my daughter and I did do some shopping in the local grocery, and the flavor of everything was wonderful.)

So I know how many back yards there are in America that have nary a vegetable all summer, much less in the middle of the winter, and I know that if every back yard in the country had a vegetable garden that there wouldn't be nearly as many tasteless California, Texas and Florida grown tomatoes shipped around the country all year.

Maybe Organic megafarms wouldn't be able to feed the nation, but several million backyard gardens would go a long way to feeding several million families tasteful, healthful produce. And just because both parents work doesn't mean it can't still be done. My parents did it all the time I was growing up.

And if more Americans did that, and also walked and rode bicycles more, perhaps more people here would look like the people there. Lean and trim. Exercise coupled with food that provides the vitamins and minerals needed to produce energy keeps a body slim.

I agree.

For me, gardening keeps me eating raw vegetables that I would not eat otherwise if I had to buy all of them, so I am definitely healthier (and smaller) than I would be if I didn't garden. It wouldn't be due to what is in the food, rather how much I ate (taste!) and how much I worked doing it.

Great thread and good discussion! Dorothy, I'm glad Dawn managed to link to the article.

We definitely prefer to grow, produce & process as much of our own food as we can. Yet, like Scott, I have to defend the American farmer. Nobody does it better.

Still, we often have the same wistful conversation (Jerreth and I) about how good it would be if Americans abandoned the boob tube and computer games, etc., and got interested in backyard gardening and home food production.

George

I am 100 percent FOR the American farmers and ranchers who incorporate environmentally ethical practices into their businesses. The problem comes only from those who don't. The chicken waste is one of those problems currently being taken issue with, and in some states, dealing with pig offal is another.

Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: Pollution Lawsuit against Big Poultry in Oklahoma

But that is the organic, old way of doing things! How could that cause problems? (kidding)

I am sure there are farmers who are unethical just like people in any other business, but some of these lawsuits are ridiculous. A few years ago there was a lawsuit brought against chicken farmers in eastern OK for polluting a river. After someone had enough sense to do some scientific research they found out the river actually had less pollution than it had 20 years ago when no large chicken farms existed in that area. The lawsuit was thrown out of the courts, but of course some of the farmers were already in financial crisis because they had to hire lawyers to fight the lawsuit.

The significant point of the article was that the food in American grocery stores has less nutritional value now than it did 50 years ago and more. And since even those of us who raise a great deal of our own food, don't raise all of it, this affects us too. And it should be of real concern to people who have to get all their food there.

Glenn and I often have that same wistful conversation. And visiting a country like Italy where backyard gardening is still so much practiced makes it even more wistful.

I agree with you on that score, MK. One of the main concerns, as well, is that GMO foods are not required to be labeled as such.

I was told by no less than our illustrious Senator Inhofe, (proudly) that 60 percent of the food we consume contains GMO. I think he must have meant that 60 percent of the food HE eats has GMO in it.

I think the Italians, French and Mediterranean people have much healthier diets than Americans for the most part. I'm convinced that a good part of the degenerative diseases Americans have are due to their eating patterns and the foods they choose to eat. So, it's not all the food producer's fault, when we choose to consume unhealthy processed foods.

It has been encouraging to me to see the interest here on the forum, in growing, or obtaining organic grains to grind at home and bake with.

Barbara