I'll not attempt to give you a size figure, but I will tell you a few things to think about. First of all: Where do you live?

Walnut trees are allelopathic which means they give off a chemical that many plants can't grow under or near. In the event that you are planning for it to be a Black Walnut, they are the worst. but other walnuts have it to a lesser degree. I have Black Walnut trees in my yard. They were here when we moved here and are huge, but they frequently drop small limbs, and falling walnuts are hard and heavy when they fall, so don't put them over a pathway or driveway. Mine are close to the street and when cars roll over the walnuts they make a loud popping sound that reminds you of a drive-by. In addition, they sprout up in every flower bed where the squirrels plant their own. We are going to put a few at my son's place, but far, far away from the house.

Pecan trees are great, but they get huge.

I planted a Hall's Hardy Almond in the early Spring near the Kansas state line along with numerous other fruit trees, and at this moment in time, it is the most vigorous tree in the batch. If I get nuts, or not, and if they will be good are not is still to be seen a few years down the road, but the tree looks good.

I have posted on this forum before asking if anyone grows hazelnuts, and didn't get an answer. I hope someone will answer your question. Good luck with the trees.

Mizmelody, I won't attempt to answer your question exactly because there are just two many variables, but as Carol says pecan trees get huge and walnuts are allopathic. It sounds to me like you're going to need an acre for the orchard and depending on how big you want your garden and berry patch as well as house, I'd plan on another acre. So my rough guess would be 2 acres.

Now on another subject, I got your email through gardenweb but can't reply to it because of the way you have it set up. Email me again with your email address in the body of the message and I can send you the info about the naked ladies.

Pecan trees like deep soil I think. They don't do that well here in my rocks. Consider the well or water source. I have a well that is limited. I could drill deeper but I would get sulfur water like my neighbors.

Good point Helen. Without a reliable water source you may not be able to get your orchard and berries established in Oklahoma's summers, even if you plant in the fall which is the best time to plant. We have an orchard about the size of the one you mention on 3/4 of an acre, and a garden on another 1/3 acre. (We have 15 acres total but we don't use all of it. A neighbor cuts our hay pasture and the 10 acres that are in woods provide more firewood in the form of dead trees than we can keep cut and burned.)We have a well which serves the house but for the garden and orchard we have rural water. A good source of mulch is also important. (And forget about laying weedmatting under the mulch. It doesn't work well at all long term. Several layers of newspaper work better.) Now we're answering questions you haven't asked, but that's what we do here.

LOL - I should proof read.....thanks Dorothy.

I have been pondering how I would answer this question ever since you posted it yesterday. It is hard to give a definite answer like "you'd need 1 acre" (or 2 or 3, etc.) because too many variables are unknown.

The most important variable is the kind of soil on the property and the annual average rainfall (though annual rainfall numbers aren't as helpful as we'd like to think). If you found property with a deep, sandy loam soil that drains well and yet also holds water well, you likely could get by with a somewhat smaller piece of land. However, if you found a place that is excessively rocky or that has only a shallow layer of topsoil on top of bedrock, you'd likely need a larger piece of land. If you found clay soil, you'd have to amend it a lot to make it workable, but at least it is highly fertile once you've added organic material and other material to it to improve both its water-holding capacity and its ability to drain well. However, clay soil requires more irrigation in hot periods because most clay bakes hard as concrete in high temperatures and low rainfall. You can ill afford to let the ground get so hard and dry that it is like concrete because, when you do, plants die and also, when rain returns, it rolls off that hard, clay ground just like water rolls off a table top. So, my answer would vary depending on the type of soil you were dealing with.

Rainfall and available groundwater is a huge issue. If you buy land in an area that generally has 35-45" or more of rainfall a year, you could space your plants somewhat more closely together and they'd be fine most years. If, on the other hand, you find land in an area that averages 28-32" a year or less, you might have to plant trees further apart so they weren't competing too much with one another for the available moisture in the soil. If you found a place with a well, or one where you have water rights and can drill a well, that's a bonus, but only if the water is of good quality. Irrigation can be very costly if you are having to buy water from a municipality or a rural water co-op, and you may not be able to afford to irrigate an orchard and a vegetable garden in the persistently dry, drought-plagued years that have been so common in the last decade. Is it possible to dryland farm/garden without irrigation? Once the plants are well-established (which can take several years with trees), maybe, but part of dryland farming or dryland gardening in the total absence of irrigation is that you have to space plants further apart so the roots of each plant can spread out as far as possible to find any available moisture in the soil. That means you'd need more space.

You have so many things to consider when looking for a piece of land that is large enough for a home, outbuildings, a lawn (if you choose to have a lawn or if you are in a semi-rural sub-division with an HOA that requires a lawn), space for children to play or for animals to live or play, a garage or storage shed, possibly a garden shed/potting shed or greenhouse, a cold frame, a driveway, a storm shelter, and land for utility easements....and an orchard and vegetable garden. You also likely will want to grow some herbs and flowers either within the orchard and veggie garden or in them. All the above requires a lot of space. If you buy land far enough out in the country that it is not hooked up to a municipal sewage system, then you also will need room for a septic tank and either the septic system's lateral lines or a lagoon, depending on what is appropriate for your soil.

I'd suggest you use graph paper (either a physical sheet of paper or an online design program that let's you draw out your dream place on your computer) and try to lay out a house, driveway, the outbuildings, the garden, orchard, etc. that you want. Draw it to scale and see what fits onto one acre. Then ask yourself if that one acre is enough or if you need 2 (or more) acres. If one acre doesn't seem like it is enough, try graphing it on 2 acres and see how that looks on paper. Remember that any piece of land not occupied by a building, hardscaping like a patio or driveway, waterways like ponds or creeks, or by garden beds will have to be mowed and maintained. Buying a place that is too big can leave you with a huge mowing chore.

We have slightly under 15 acres. It is 14.4, but most of it is wooded, so our house and outbuildings (a large detached garage, potting shed, 2 chicken coops with fenced chicken runs, a storage shed, a greenhouse and a tornado shelter), 4 separate fenced garden plots, orchard, chicken coops/chicken runs, driveway, utility easement, septic system/lagoon, etc., fenced dog yard with shade structures, and also wildflower meadows and mostly-dry ponds fill about 3 acres. We likely could have squeezed it all into 2 or 2.5, but we like having everything spaced out a certain way. Our dogs cannot escape their well-fenced dog yard, but the chickens can (and sometimes do) fly into the dog yard, so it is smart, for example, to keep a reasonable distance between our dogs and our chickens.

The way you choose to raise your edible plants also determines how much land you need. I'd suggest you read Rosaline Creasy's 2010 book "Edible Landscaping" and think about incorporating edible crops into your standard landscaping as well as growing them in a dedicated garden plot and a dedicated orchard. At least some of your nut trees, if carefully sited, can put shade in areas where you need them...shading, for example, your backyard (if edible crops that need full sun aren't growing there) or the south or west side of your house. We have a very large pecan tree that shades part of our yard, the edge of the big garden (unfortunately, but you can make that shade work to your advantage in summer), and the two chicken coops with their fenced chicken runs. Other pecan trees shade the side yard to the north of our house. You can plant some fruit trees right in the yard, if you choose. They don't all have to be restricted to an orchard setting. We have fruit trees in our front yard, the side yard on the south side of the house, and in a mini-orchard out back of the house a fairly large distance from the house (over 100' from the house).

Our walnuts are down in the woodland where they belong. I don't want them up near the house and gardens creating problems.

Remember that you cannot plant anything too far from the house without making provisions to provide water for the far-away plantings. You don't want to have to drag a bunch of water hoses several hundred of feet every time you have to water an orchard or garden.

Your gardening style will influence how much land you need. If you grow using traditional narrow rows of crops with wide spacing between rows to accomodate a garden tractor, that will require a much larger amount of space than if you grow in wide rows of plants interspersed with narrow footpaths. If you grow biointensively in raised beds filled with highly-amended soil and you utilize pretty close spacing of plants, you can get by with less land, but will have to provide water more often since the plants are so close to one another. (For an idea of how to grow in this method, check out John Jeavons' excellent book "How To Grow More....." (the title is too long to type so I'll link it below).

Your orchard management can allow you to grow a lot of trees in a fairly compact orchard, but you'd have to use all dwarf or semi-dwarf trees, and invest a considerable amount of time in keeping them properly pruned so it didn't become an unruly mess. You might want to go to the Fruit and Orchard forum and read about some of the pruning and spacing methods that people use to grow a lot of fruit in a fairly compact space. You also could espalier fruit trees (this is discussed in Creasy's "Edible Landscaping" book) alongside building walls or fences to save space as well.

With the vegetable garden, a key issue is whether you merely want to raise enough food so that you always are eating from the garden whatever is in season at the current time or whether you want to raise more than you can eat fresh and then process and preserve the rest. If that is the case, you need a lot more land and you need a storage place for all the food you want preserve, regardless of which method you use for preservation: dehydration, fermentation, canning, freezing, root cellar storage, etc.

If you have pets, you need a spot for them. Even the friendliest, happiest dog or cat can be very destructive in a garden setting. I love our pets, but most of them are fenced out of the garden plots and for good cause.

If you buy rural to semi-rural acreage, you need to know that every single wild thing that walks on the ground, swims in the water, lives underground or that flies in the sky will want to share your space with you, and you will find it impossible (and, in fact, undesirable) to maintain acreage that is free of all those life forms. On our acreage we have or have had all the following (though not necessarily all at the same time): cottontail rabbits, white-tail deer, skunks, possums, armadillos, squirrels, rats, raccoons, field mice, moles, gophers, voles, ring-tail cats, beavers, coyotes, bobcats, an occasional cougar or two, turtles, skinks, snakes (both venomous and non-venomous), frogs, toads, snakes, lizards, feral hogs, snakes, all kinds of birds including predator birds that will feed on our chickens if we aren't careful about protecting them, wild birds of all sorts (mostly desirable), fish in our ponds and creeks, and every insect and arachnid you ever could imagine and probably a few thousand kinds you've never seen before. In order to protect your plantings from all or at least most of the above, you need to have protective measures in place. For our gardens, 8' tall fences are the only thing that successfully keeps deer out of our gardens and, if the gardens aren't fenced down low to the ground, the rabbits eat voraciously, especially in late winter and early spring. Putting up fencing and doing it well to the animals cannot go under it, over it or through it, is a challenge and a major expense. You need to plan on this when you are laying out the area that will be your vegetable garden and orchard. Can you have a veggie garden and fruit trees without fencing? Of course you can, but you'll find yourself fighting the wildlife nonstop some years. I think it is easier to have the garden plantings fenced, and it has saved my sanity and really lowered my stress level. Wildlife can work, literally, 24/7 to get into your edible plantings and eat them, so you have to outsmart them and to exclude them.

Our first huge (and not unexpected) issue after buying our land was merely the time and expense involved in clearing a place along the property line to put in a fence in order to fence in our 14.4 acres to exclude the horses, cows and goats that lived on nearby land. You cannot assume your neighbor's farm animals will not 'escape' their own fenced-in pastures and pop-up on your place. It happens, and sometimes it happens often.

You'll also need an area to have a compost pile in order to make compost on a continual basis for your garden plots. You'll need an area for trash. Even in rural areas, there's trash service available, but you need a place to keep your trash cans, bins, dumpster, etc.

If you buy bare land and build a house, you will need not only a place to park your vehicles, but a place where all sorts of service vehicles, including the utility companies and delivery trucks, can enter your property, drive up to the house, and still have a large enough area to turn around in order to head back down the driveway again. You'll need a parking area for several visiting vehicles since there isn't space on most rural roads for roadside parking.

If you buy a house in a brand-new sub-division, be sure you understand all the land-use covenants. If there is a Homeowner's Association, you may find a lot of rules in place that can largely impede your ability to grow what you want, where you want it and how you want it. HOA rules can be incredibly restrictive, and you cannot just ignore them and do as you please or you'll have a lot of expensive legal issues.

If I was wanting to do what you are wanting to do, I'd prefer to start with nothing less than 2 acres. You certainly could do it with less, but then as all the nut trees grew and starting making a lot of shade, you might feel like you were losing too much land to shade and you might start wishing you had more open, unshaded, sunny land.

If you want to maintain meadows of native grasses and wildflowers for the wildlife, for example, or a little woodland space for them, you might wish to have 3 acres. Maybe you want a little water garden pond with water lilies, or a fishing pond with a dock. Try drawing out everything you want on paper or on a computer design program and see how it all works out. My experience has been that people who move "to the country" often are not realistic in their expectations about what they can do on a half-acre or acre lot and quickly find that they wish they'd bought a somewhat bigger piece of land. My brother had two acres and that worked fairly well for just a garden, a blackberry bed, and fruit trees, but by the time he added a lot of poultry, goats, three dogs and a donkey, I think he was kinda wishing he had three acres because the goats were too close to his boat and he often came outside to find the goats playing "king of the hill" with his fishing boat serving as "the hill" and all the poultry and dogs joining in the fun. Usually, someone who moves to the country in order to have a nice big garden spot always seems to end up wishing they had "just a little more" land than what they bought. We were looking for 2-5 acres when we found this place and I was worried that 14.4 acres would be too much for us. As it turned out, it was just about the right size of land...but that is true only because about 2/3s of it is heavily forested. That filled my husband's need to have trees (he grew up in a very heavily forested semi-rural area in Pennsylvania) while leaving me plenty of open, sunny land for growing things and for raising animals.

I wouldn't have wanted 14 acres of grassland because the maintenance of that much land would have been a nightmare. We stay busy enough just mowing 3 or so acres.

I hope this gives you a lot to think about before you begin searching for land. We had seen the land we ended up buying long before it went on the market and had driven by it several times because a friend told us the local rumor was that the land eventually was going to be sold. As we looked at other pieces of land in this area over a period of several months, we found something "wrong" with each piece of property that kept us from buying it. I think that both of us, deep down, really just wanted to keep our options open until this place we have now was put on the market. At times it was frustrating to look and look and look at one piece of property after another, because each piece of property we viewed had potential, but none of them was "the one" we thought was just right. We were eager to find the right land and build a house so we could move to the country, and almost bought a different piece of land but decided against it because it was all river bottom land that would, inevitably, flood (which it did, big-time, in 2007). As it turned out, this place we bought was the perfect place for us and I'm grateful we took our time and looked at many pieces of property and made a careful decision about which one was best for us. This place is so right for us and for the rural lifestyle we live that it is like it was meant to be all along! We have absolutely the best neighbors in the world, not just right next door, but up and down the road in every direction. I love living here. I hope you will find your own perfect little place so you can have the garden and orchards you want.

Dawn

To keep the nut trees healthy and producing regularly, you need to have about 10 feet of space between canopies so that the sun can reach all sides of the tree during the day.

In my 3 acre yard I have 50+ pecan trees that I have kept, but they are still just 8-10 years old. I will have to remove half of them in about 10 years to keep them productive. If I did not thin them there would be lots of dropped branches to clean up and much less attractive trees and fewer nuts over time.

A general guideline for the pecans at my house IMO is that they need to be planted 10' apart plus another foot for every year of age they are. In other words my 10 year old trees can be just 20' apart and do great for now. By the time they are 50 yrs old they need at least 60 feet between trees to do their best. Over time I can remove the ones that are not as good to get to the desired spacing.