Alas, rumors of the beast abound but personal sightings for me remain elusive.

Monique,

I could live here the rest of my life and not be a New Englander. I am a hardy Southerner living in New England.

Idabean,

My wife is from here and blames the '78 blizzard for the behavior, too.

Rockman,

I, too, lived in the Midwest for several years (in Wisconsin). You are right on the money about people's attitudes out there. Any storm less that a foot hardly made the news. I never once witnessed panic there and that includes the 3 ft blizzard they had my second year there. I don't recall a single January where the temperature rose above 5 below zero. I remember several nights where the absolute temp was 25 - 40 below zero and the windchill was 80 - 100 below zero. I laugh at "brutal" winters that New Englander's have to endure.

Narcnh,

If I only had a dollar for everytime someone here blamed an issue for for which they were being criticized on another part of the country. There is NOT an influx of people causing this problem. It is the native people that are responsible. Their accent gives them away and their bad manners.

Kim,

I'm going to say something to you that I've rarely had a chance to say to any New Enlander since I've lived here. I respect you and your honesty.

Cady,

All I have heard since I've lived here is how New Englanders are such a hardy bunch. This has never been qualified as pertaining to only rural regions. However, I agree that I'm more likely to find a hardy New Englander in Maine rather than Boston. You're argument that the same phenomenon is commonplace in other urban areas is just dead wrong. I have been to Minneapolis several times and have never observed panic with any weather event.

Rudy,

You make a logical argument. Maybe I should extend my search in the direction of Foxborough...

Never could figure out the rush to buy groceries before a snow storm. I've actually done some of my best shopping during the storm. They may be out of milk and bread by then but usually all I'm looking for is something to toss on the grill. Just don't get carried away and buy more than you can carry because the shopping carts can be trick to push through snow drifts.

Sue

I come from Hardy New Englander stock, but I bet my ancestors are rolling in their graves with jealousy because I dont HAVE to be hardy.

Very few people choose to live their whole lives on a subsistence level, when the alternative is a very comfortable (even if modest) life. And it's a luxury to be able to whine a little to people who understand.

I hope I never have to activate those hardy genes.

Claire

I'm with Kim-I'm a summer girl myself. I'm a California transplant and I've only been in NE 20 years, so I'm not yet acclimated. I do however remember walking about a mile to the bus stop in snow quite often growing up-I'm from Northern CA, not southern. And they don't use salt there. I have a temperature tolerance range between 73-78 degrees. I have a whole closet full of coats. But I like to go the mall during a snowstorm because everyone else who is out and about is at the grocery store buying bread and milk and oh yeah-beer too. I will say that I've made a pact with myself to never ever buy another vehicle that is not a 4x4. I don't like driving in the snow, but I do want to be safe when I do.

I grew up in Michigan, which is colder and snowier. They also hit the stores to stock up whenever a storm is predicted. This behavior never ceases to amaze me, because no matter where I've been, the roads have always been plowed within a day at the most.

lol the only hardy New Englanders are in Minnesota!

Tree Oracle,
Perhaps the difference between Minneapolis and Boston, is most Minneapolitans are Minnesotans -- and not far removed from agricultural, non-urban ancestral lives -- while more and more Boston-area people are dyed-in-the-wool urbanites for generations. Or, transplants from urban points south (NYC, etc.)

All I know is that my grandparents all were immigrants from the Pale of Ukraine/Russia, that my father's family settled in northern Vermont and New Hampshire, my mother's family settled in Buffalo, and that never in my recollections did anyone in my extended family panic over a snowstorm. They were and are as stoic as any New Englander/upstate New Yorker could be.

A few points -

I've lived in Massachusetts for over 20 years, and pretty much grew up here. I would definitely say that the news has become more and more prone to over-dramatizing winter weather. It's getting silly when it seems like everything over 3 inches is called either a "blizzard" or a "noreaster" or both. I don't remember the fuss being nearly as great when I was a kid 15 or 20 years ago, but I could be wrong.

As for the reactions of the general public, I agree that some people overreact, especially those who either take the news too literally or simply have a personality where they get worried about everything. As far as I can tell, though, the majority of people take winter weather pretty much in stride.

Part of it may depend on the exact region. I'm not sure where in Massachusetts you live, but if it's zone 6b I'm guessing the southeastern part of the state, Cape Cod, or right along the coast in or near Boston. Those parts of the state are generally the areas that get the least snow - they will often get rain, sleet, or freezing rain when the rest of the state gets snow, so their "snow tolerance" might be considerably lower. Last winter had a couple of storms that, unusually, dumped more snow in the southern coastal areas than the areas further north and west.

I live about 35 miles west of Boston, near Worcester. I would consider a few inches of snow in one storm fairly light, about a foot middling, 20 inches-2 feet to be heavy, and 2 feet or more extremely heavy.

I don't think it's entirely fair to compare people in the Boston area to people from, say, the Minneapolis-Saint Paul area. The winters in Minnesota are on average considerably more severe than those in Massachusetts, particularly the milder zones in the southeastern part of the state. It's only natural that people have a lower tolerance for extreme cold and heavy snow in places where they are not as used to it.

A couple more points -

I agree that a lot of people in Massachusetts drive like complete idiots when it snows. This leads to more accidents, more traffic jams, and a generally longer and more harrowing commute experience for many people. I have heard this remarked on by many other people, both natives and people who recently moved to Massachusetts from other states. I am at a loss to explain how so many people who see a lot of snow every winter for years can continue to behave like they just moved here from Miami and have never seen the stuff before as soon as they get behind the wheel.

I know quite a few people whose greatest anxiety when they hear that a snowstorm is coming is driving related - the worst case scenario is getting smashed by some idiot who thinks he or she can still cruise along at 75 mph on a highway that hasn't been thoroughly plowed yet, or the less dangerous but enormously frustrating prospect of getting stuck in traffic for hours extra because of the accident(s) caused by said idiot being ahead of you.

Springa,

A very lucid, logical post. I couldn't agree more with your very last statement. However, it seems to me that the phrase "hardy New Englander" extends to all areas of Massachusetts including the coast as well as Rhode Island and Connecticut. If it does not then I wish people would stop using the phrase in those areas.

I do indeed live on the South Shore in Marshfield. However, that has not always been the case. I lived in Lowell my first two years here. I then lived in North Andover for three years, Quincy for one year, and Marshfield for the last four years. My impression of the reaction to storms has not changed from area to area.

It's funny that when we were planning to move to Marshfield, I was somewhat hesistant because I wanted to move somewhere that got plenty of snow. My wife assured me that it snows along the coast, too. Boy, were my expectations ever wrong. We have taken the brunt of almost every storm over the last three years. I've lost count of the number of times over the last two years especially that we have received 2+ feet of snow in a single storm.

Tree Oracle -

I've never noticed all that much panicking around winter storms, apart from traffic jams caused by people leaving work early. People grumble about the weather, but I hardly ever see anything that resembles panic. Perhaps I just don't notice it because I'm not the type to rush to stores immediately before a snowstorm, so I don't really notice the people who do (and those are the panicky ones). Unless the storm is absolutely enormous, stores will be open the next day, although it can be harder to find parking because a sustantial part of the parking lot is now covered by piles of plowed snow, and everyone uses the excuse that they can't see the parking lines clearly to park at random odd angles and leave 7 feet between cars so that the lot can only hold about 50% of its normal capacity.

The last couple of winters have seen several true "noreasters" - storms where the center is out over the Atlantic and the winds pull moisture from the ocean back westward onto the land, usually hitting the coastal areas hardest. There has been an unusual abundance of them, giving the coastal areas of Massachusetts some of the snowiest winters they've had in recorded history. The more common type of winter storm is a front coming in from the west or northwest and dumping more further west and inland. That's what I got used to growing up - there were numerous storms where the Worcester area would get, say, 18 inches, while Boston would get maybe 3 inches and Plymouth and the Cape would get only rain.

Springa,

Your second post is right on the money. However, I would extend that to all of time rather than just when it snows. You have to have lived in other parts of the country to realize just how bad people drive here. Don't get me started about the primitive infrastructure around this area. Lack of signs, beat-up roads that do not have enough capacity, no merge lanes, rotaries, etc., etc. Combine this with bad drivers and you get the traffic nightmare that is Boston.

I have very little experience driving in other parts of the country, but the little I've seen made a generally favorable impression on me. What really impressed me were the roads - wider, straighter, better maintained, and much better labeled as a general rule than those around here. Apart from the interstates, Massachusetts basically has a system of roads built for horses that's had some pavement laid over top of it.

Hey Tree Oracle:

This is turning out to be a rather thoughtful thread. Thanks for giving us a chance to re-examine some of our assumptions.

Claire

Springa,

You're OK in my book. You see the world as it is.

I still maintain that this formula has merit:

Dependency on services/access + Media hype from ridiculous television weathermen = Panicky sub/urbanites.

Every day here on the North Shore and Cape Ann, lobstermen and fishermen take their boats out on hazardous winter voyages; local construction workers and roofers are out in sub-freezing weather; the remaining farmers are splitting firewood and putting away supplies as a regular part of their natural annual seasonal cycle.
They don't panic when the weathermen rant on the tube. They live their lives as they have for generations.

The farther you are from a hands-on trade, and the more dependent you are on others to provide your daily needs, the more vulnerable you are to panic with storm forecasts and media hype.
Minnesotans and North Dakotans are used to worse blizzards, and in general are more self-sufficient because they are descended from a rich heritage of self-sufficient people from cold, snowy climates -- Norwegians, Swedes, et al. They also have far harsher and longer winters than New England, and because of that they likely have better systems in place to provide for basic needs during the worst weather. I'd reckon their plow budgets are more generous, and their system better organized, than any out here since we don't have to deal with severe storms/snow as frequently as they must.

Tree Oracle, you crusty old crank... lol ... You drag this topic out every year just to get a reaction. It's really a rhetorical question that will never be answered to your satisfaction, because you hate being here, as you've so often stated. Maybe you should move to Cape Ann and be a lobsterman, or New Hampshire and be a dairy farmer, to get things into perspective. Or keep their company instead of surrounding yourself with a world of service-dependent office-working people who spend too much time watching television forecasts, and thinking that they are representative of all New Englanders.

OK, so Cady said it first and gave me the courage to speak. Tree Oracle, you start a thread like this every year, altho this one has been uncommonly polite in comparison to previous years. As I have said before, life is too short to live in a place you dislike so much. There has got to be a job for you in a place you like better. For your own happiness, pull out all the stops and find that place.

I have lived all over the US, North, South, both coasts. Every place has its pros and cons. Every place has people who couldn't imagine living anywhere else, and people who are sick waking up to face another day in that place.

I am not from New England but I absolutely love it here. I love the variety of scenery, from oceans to lakes to mountains to forests to meadows to wetlands--and more. I love the tremendous range of gardens they make possible. I love the variety of weather--it is exciting and stimulating, and I am always looking forward to the next season as one begins to close.

And I love the people. There really are more very intelligent people here than in many other places. I took a cab back from the airport and the driver presented his political views in a more articulate and informed manner than I have read in many newspapers. Book stores are everywhere--new and used (my favorite). I like the diversity, especially in Boston and the many college towns--people from all over the globe.

I love the passion of so many people, whether for the Red Sox or politics. I love the history. I visit historic sites and homes frequently and will never run out of places to visit here in New England.

I have gone on too long. Tree Oracle, you are a nice guy under your curmudgeonly persona--kinda makes you one of us, to tell the truth. If you really dislike New England and the folks here as much as you have said over the years on this forum, then find your bliss. You owe it to yourself.

Tree Oracle, you are a nice guy under your curmudgeonly persona--kinda makes you one of us, to tell the truth.

If you remember last year's thread, you will realize that Tree Oracle has mellowed a great deal, and is indeed being absorbed by the local New England persona.

He also has, I suspect, shaken some of us out of our complacency. Cady is absolutely correct, lobstermen and fishermen, construction workers and farmers, and many other people in hands-on trades who work outdoors in all weather are still undeniably "hardy".

It is also true that most of us who spend way too much time sitting at computers do not fit into that category. I am beginning to realize that I am not the rock-ribbed New Englander I thought I was. I delight in following the weather forecasts, with all the flashy graphics, even though I don't always believe them. I don't race to the store to buy last-minute supplies before a potential storm, but only because I've always kept emergency supplies in stock. My one downfall last winter was a need to go out for birdseed when the road wasn't plowed for about 4 days.

I don't think Tree Oracle should leave - he's become a useful counter-irritant for us. And I suspect he'd hate to leave his impressive garden here.

Claire

Oh, this discussion is turning into a Christmas tradition around here LOL :-)

Let's see, Tree Oracle wrote his post mid afternoon on Saturday. That was 24 hours after we received 14" of snow. When Tree Oracle wrote his post, we had been up since 7am, fed 5 animals, finished clearing snow from around the barn, picked ice out of horse feet, mucked out the barn and paddock, galloped around the pasture bareback on a furry pony, filled water troughs, thrown bales of hay out of the hayloft, restacked the hay in the loft that were scattered from kids making forts, and that was all before 11am!
(that's how we stay warm, anyway!)

The farm across the street did the same for their 15 horses. So I don't know about the inner suburbs of Boston, but central Mass certainly has hardy residents who are not fazed by the weather :-)

Ellen (who is loving this snow!)

Ellen,
If I could have galloped bareback on my pet turkey, I would have! Unfortunately, my old Morgan mare passed away last year.

I guess what I'm saying is...maybe you are looking in the wrong place for your hardy New Englanders, Tree Oracle. Metro Boston is not really representative of New England as a whole! Can you change the title of this thread to "Still searching for that hardy Bostonian" :-)

Cady...sorry about your mare...I have had one of mine since he was 3 yrs old (he is now 17), I can't imagine life without him.

Ellen

Thanks, Ellen. She was a great horse. Got her when she was 8 and had her for 21 more years. She was the most willing trail savvy ol' girl. This snow would have been irresistable for her to go for a roll.

I've been chuckling through this post and because I'm a relative newbie, didn't realize that this is a tradition. Gotta like it! Yankee manners at their best .... LOL. As a native who's never wanted to go anywhere else, I keep finding reasons to stay put.

In my new job I travel a lot in Franklin County, Massachusetts. This was a volunteer assignment. Anyone who can keep a business up and running in Franklin County has *got* to be smart, or rich. Either way, they get to their businesses every day, no matter the weather, and make their lives work. That, to me, is a hardy New Englander.

Martie, who drives 25,000 miles per year and has met her fair share :-)

I have lived in New England all my life. Lucky enough to have enjoyed the Blizzard of '78. [g] Walked to a friend's house 3 miles away as soon as the sun came out and the driveway was shoveled, and the eggs, milk and sugar were for chocolate chip cookies and milk!

Drivers in New England? Roads in New England? Possibly deserved, but I tried living in Florida once and only lasted 7 months. Missing the seasons was primary, but one of the things I missed a lot were the streets. Ever try driving down Rte 1 from Pompano to Miami? [g] And no where to take a short cut unless you wanted to end up in a canal. Sure missed the turns and the hills and the half a dozen ways to get to the same place. Yes, even the rotaries. :-)

Here drivers are driven crazy by having to travel 128 that has way too many cars on it every day of the week and lived with the Big Dig for how many years?... only to learn the tunnels are leaking. Not that that is an excuse for poor driving. I just have a hard time believing we have exclusive rights to that problem.

I agree with the comments made that the weather forecasts have become entertainment..lol. We get a big kick out of them. Panic when snow is coming?

I can't remember seeing any panic but I wasn't in the stores stocking up either. [g] The only people I knew who had their eyes glued to the weather forecast and were anxious in the winter, were those who had night blindness, or people who had new drivers in the family and worried about if their kids would get home safe from where ever they were. Or someone with a back injury who couldn't shovel snow and had to depend on someone else, or someone who was older and had to worry about falling when the streets weren't clear.

I think you have to pretty healthy to be hardy even in New England and many of the baby boomers are not as healthy as they used to be.

I couldn't read the whole thread, so please excuse if this is a rehash of what has already been discussed.

:-)
adam

I've enjoyed reading the all of the posts. I'll always have different opinions that many of you but I think we do indeed share a passion for gardening. Claire was right in that I would hate to leave my gardening masterpiece behind.

One thing that we are in total agreement on, is that fisherman here are truly hardy New Englanders. I cannot believe how difficult and dangerous their job is. If it makes you guys feel better, I'm a real fan of steamers and lobster. I grew up eating shrimp and catfish which I miss eating. But there is some good seafood here, too.

Ginny,

You last post is the attitude that I find typical of Bostonians. It's why this area is not well-liked by other parts of the country and it's really what drives me nuts. Do you honestly think that this is the only area of the country with a variety of scenery, or a change of seasons, or book stores, restaurants, museums, and the arts? Do you think this is the only area with a rich history? You are not well-traveled if you do.

And I love the people. There really are more very intelligent people here than in many other places.

That is not the statement of a mature person. You have a lot to learn. Over the course of my life, I have learned that intelligence depends on the topic of conversation and who you happen to be talking to at any one moment. Construction workers, lumberjacks, and mechanics are not people that typically have a degree in physics however do you know how to operate a bulldozer or chainsaw or how to work on a car engine. No? Well, then maybe you are the one that is ignorant. Any urban area of the country is going to have people well-versed in politics, science, finance or anything else that I would refer to as book sense. I would never assume that other areas do not. I grew up in a small town in northern Alabama and everyone in my family and most people that I knew growing up have a college eduction. There is also more to intelligence, though, then just book sense. When I was growing up my mom gave me a line right out of the movie, The Natural. I was always much better than average in science. One day she looked at me and said, "you have a gift but it's not enough. You always have to make sure that you have enough horse sense (a southern expression for common sense) to balance out the book sense in order to be a truly intelligent person". I've never forgotten that speech. I've spent my entire life observing people and situations, trying to learn common sense and applying it in my everyday life. I have found this trait to be in short supply in the Boston area. Your last post is evidence of that.

Common sense is no more rare in New England than intelligence or education are in other parts of the country.

I've lived in a few places, city and rural, and found that people are pretty much the same wherever you go. Some of them just talk funny. :o)

In each case, I've met highly intelligent and delightful people from every economic rung, "society" women (all manicured and coiffed, even in the smallest rural town), down-to-earth, hardworking, honest ordinary folks, millionaires in bib-overalls, and a fair share of low-lifes and town drunks. Among them, some are always "hardier" than others.

Wow, lots of good stuff here and lots of hot air. IÂll leave it to each individual to sort one from the other. My Ânot-even-worth-two-cents observations, summarizing some of what has been posted:

o "New England" covers regions that include Greenwich, Connecticut, where folks have a view of the New York City skyline, and Caribou, Maine, where folks have a view of, well, caribou (not really, but it reads well). Would not expect folks from such disparate regions to have the same view of the world, the weather or whatever. Northern New England has more in common with Upper New York State than with areas that border Long Island Sound. Not good or bad, just the way it is.

o Folks in urban areas, like Boston, are going to have a different view of the world, the weather or whatever, than folks, who live in rural regions and have taken care of basic Âfarm chores by 11am. ALL urbanites the world over are more service-dependent than ruralites. Again, not good or bad, just the way it is. A good question to distinguish Âservice-dependents from Âself-dependents is, "Do you get your eggs from a carton or from a chicken?" One of my favorite activities is to ask a local farmer about the weather. There is no hyperbole or fascination, just a very real analysis of whatÂs happened, whatÂs coming, and their impact on the crops or livestock. Very sobering.

o Saying that the roads of Boston were created from horse trails is disparaging to horse trails the world over. They were created from cow trails.

o ALL snow regions would be a lot safer, if people would change their all-season radials for real snow tires. Studded snows should be mandatory. Four-wheel drive should be strongly encouraged. Four-hoof drive is the best.

o Intelligence and stupidity know no regional, cultural, social, ethnic, racial, age, gender, religious or political boundaries, being equally dispersed among all. Common sense, as it relates to survival skills, is another story. See last item.

Now, I can check one more Christmas tradition off of the list.

Hi Narcnh

When you talk about heated water bowls? I keep hearing that you should have a heated bird bath for birds over the winter...my family has asked me, why do the birds need a heated bird bath, what did they do in the winter all these years without one? [g] We all imagined that they must eat the snow.

So you DO provide fresh water for the birds in the winter. What is a heated water bowl and do you have to plug it in? Where did you get it?

Thanks..
:-)
adam

Cady, do you use heated water bowls in winter? Last year I bought a couple of the large, ½ gallon heated water bowls they sell for dogs and they have worked great for keeping liquid water available for my birds. Without the water fowl I only need one now for my chickens. They also seem not to mind eating snow, especially when it is light and fluffy, like the last snowfall.

narcnh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

The outdoor birds will drink from the buckets of warm water I serve up. They are resourceful little varmints.

narcch, the electric dog bowls I got are 1 gallon sized. I need the larger ones to provide enough water for chickens, a turkey, and one small duck that manages to squeeze out of the duck pen and wreak havoc overnight -- splashing and pooping in the heated water. Fortunately, the other ducks and geese can't fit through the slats in the stall. They have their own bucket anyway.

o Intelligence and stupidity know no regional, cultural, social, ethnic, racial, age, gender, religious or political boundaries, being equally dispersed among all.

One of the wisest statements that I've ever read.

Adam,

ItÂs a heated dog bowl that I bought on-line for $18.49 from PetVetSupply. They had the best price I could find last year. The link is below. It plugs into an outdoor extension cord that I run from the barn to the chicken coop. They also sell a variety of heating units/deicers that can be put into water bowls. IÂm sure one of them would fit in a bird bath. They do need to be plugged in. Given the power required to keep water from freezing and the fact that cold weather robs batteries of their useful life, I doubt youÂll find a battery-operated one.

But, IÂm not sure you need one. My chickens eat snow all the time, so IÂm sure wild birds do, too. And, there is usually some source of all-season running water within a couple of miles of any place on the east coast, even if it is not obvious to those living nearby. However, from the standpoint of drawing birds for your viewing, IÂm sure it would work.

Cady,

My mis-type. The two bowls I have are 1 & 1/2 (1.5) gallons each. I got them when I had the ducks and geese and needed all that water. You are right; it was amazing how much of a mess the waterfowl made. When I cleaned out the coop last week the wood shavings were completely caked with packed waterfowl droppings and still wet underneath from all the water they spilled. And they had been gone for months. Chickens have fine European table manners in comparison.

Tree Oracle,

I must have read it someplace else.

narcnh

Here is a link that might be useful: Heated Water Bowl

Tree Oracle, please re-read my previous post. Nowhere did I say that I was a Bostonian, or even a New Englander. I was born and raised in NYC, fifth-generation. I love NY and visit frequently but life took me here.

I am very familiar with much of the US. I have lived--note, lived for at least a year--in New York, Washington DC, Tennessee, Ohio, South Carolina, Baltimore MD, California, and Massachusetts, among others. And I have visited at length many other states, including places most people never see, like North Dakota.

I have a degree cum laude in American history. I have continued to feed that passion by exploring every corner of this country, reading extensively both before and after my visits. In the next few months, I'll be in Hawaii and later Texas, both of which I have visited before. History is the focus of each trip. Right now, I am reading about the interaction between New England Protestant missionaries of the early 1800s and the native Hawaiians. It is fascinating.

I did not say that the assets I mentioned, both in nature and in culture, do not exist elsewhere. Of course they do. I did say that they exist in an unusual concentration in New England. I stand by that statement.

Empirical data supports my statement. Surely the diversity of nature is evident to anyone. Regarding culture, Boston has a world-class symphony and art museum, among a handful which might be so described in this country. As for education, check US Census data on levels of education achieved, SAT scores, and the like, not to mention the high concentration of colleges, universities, and even prep schools in this region.

And intelligence and education are valued assets to lobstermen and farmers as much as to any other calling. Have you read Linda Greenlaw's The Hungry Ocean? She is a Colby graduate and part of her story as a highly successful longline swordfish boat captain was told in the book and movie, The Perfect Storm. She tells it more fully in her own book.

This is not a fully developed response--our garden forum is and should be devoted to our common love of gardening. So with this brief reply, I will bow out of the discussion. But I can't resist a last bit of advice, Tree Oracle. Ad hominem attacks do not advance your argument; rather, they spotlight its flaws.

The Hungry Ocean--I loved that book! Linda Greenlaw was 1 year ahead of me at Colby. Perhaps she could teach all of us a thing or two about the hardy New Englander. But, alas, the term has no useful meaning, as many have indictated, because of the huge social, cultural, and physical diversity of New England. Back to weather, which is my passion. New England weather in winter, as a region, is much more diverse than most people realize. The average temperature in Caribou Maine in January is 8.9 degrees F. IN Boston, the average is 28.8 degrees F, and along the south coast (New Bedford), the average temperature is about 30 degrees F. So mean January temperatures on the south coast of New England are 21 degrees higher than Northern Maine. Is that a big difference? Well, how far south would one have to travel from New Bedford (mean January temp = 30) to find a location with a mean January temperature that is 21 degrees higher or about 51 degree? Tallahassee and Jacksonville Florida!! In other words, the difference in mean temperature between Caribou and New Bedford in January, is about the same as the difference between New Bedford and Jacksonville!! And what about snow? Boston averages about 40 inches a year, but Portland Maine averages twice that. Once again, the south coast averages much less (25-30 inces) and Block Island RI only gets about 15 inches per year, on average (last winter was very unusual indeed!). So, if you work in Boston, you could choose to live a one hour drive to the north or a 1 hour drive to the south (assuming you can tolerate that commute) and you would experience winters that are different enough, on average, to notice. So, looking for the hardy New Englander is similar to looking for the hardy Midwesterner, without specifying any difference between the boot heel of Missouri and Fargo. Just a thought.

Thanks Cady and narcnh. Yes, I agree they are able to find water, it would be for attracting them to the yard more and the link was just what I was looking for. I do have an outdoor outlet, so that will work fine.

:-)
adam

AdamM321 -

I managed to last 4 years in South Florida. Notice that I now live in southern Vermont. I was very happy to leave all that insanity down there.

Yes, I have driven US 1 from Pompano Bch to Miami and farther down to Islamorada - 'nightmare' is not the word. I lived in Fort Laud and worked in north Boca. Now THERE'S a hideous commute.

J-

PS - Where (precisely) did you live? Pompano? If so, I AM sorry for you. ;-)

somewhat apropos: I don't think the water heaters are for the birds survival, but to attract birds to the birdbath so we can watch them from indoors.

this thread is covering a lot of territory....

say three times: think before hitting "send" advice I wish I had followed myself a few times.

Hi Jim...

Yes, we lived in Pompano over 20 years ago for a brief 7 months and even 20 years ago I just hated to drive that Rte 1. It took forever to get where you wanted to go. One straight boring line and it seemed like there was a traffic light on every block, and no way around it! It reminded me of Rte 1 in Saugus with traffic lights. A lot of shopping etc. I can't imagine what it is like now. Fort Lauderdale 20 years ago was a beautiful place. We went on vacation there and were ready for a move and decided to try it. Pompano was a few towns over to the north and less expensive, if I remember right. Paradise! lol It was a great place to visit..but.. [g]

We moved there in May. Thought we might as well find out what the summers would be like. WOW! I don't think we ever turned the air conditioning off in 7 months. We moved back home just after Thanksgiving, deciding it wasn't for us, for many reasons. As for climate, we discovered that we would rather live with heat in the winter and coats, then going from one air-conditioned space to the air conditioned car all the time. We really missed the seasons too.

I don't know how you lasted 4 months Jim..lol

adam

Hi Idabean :-)

Sometimes a thread needs a little distraction every once in awhile. [g] Maybe the person sending the post DID "think three times" before hitting "send". I imagine you might not have been following their train of thought.

I am sure all of us have experienced the thread that starts out one place and ends up going in many directions, and since you brought it up, I reviewed the thread and to me, in comparison to other threads..this one seems pretty on track.

adam

Sorry...thinking four years, typing four months.. :-)

Adam,
If you use the dog bowl instead of the heated bird bath, it would be a good idea to put a large rock in the middle for birds to perch on and prevent them from accidentally falling into the water from the rim of the bowl.

There are plenty of gardening catalogs that sell heated birdbaths, which are shallow and safe for birdies. Try Gardener's Supply (they're in Burlington, VT but have a website and online catalog).

My hardy NE winter storm tips:

1. Start by turning off the television. The local newstations are a bunch of useless pap on a good day, but when a storm is brewing they break out all the flashing and blinking graphics and preempt everything. They'll burn out two or three of those sound machines that make the big WHOOSH!!! when the graphics come onscreen. It's not a storm, it's "BLIZZARD 2005!!!, WHOooooshhhhh!".

If you watch that crap you deserve to be frightened.

2. Is it the first or second storm of the season? Take the day off. Stay out of the motor vehicle. All evidence indicates that the drivers who are out there are seeing the white stuff for the first time in their lives. And they're scared, because it's not a storm, it's BLIZZARD 2005!!!, WHHoosshh!!!. You don't want to mess with these folks.

Give it a day, the storm will have moved on, and the roads will be in pristine condition. As all hardy NE's know, each Town's DPW department has a budget set aside for snow removal. If they don't spent it all then come Spring the money is gone, and of course sometimes Winter is dry. Goodbye overtime. The solution? Blow 80% of the budget on the first storm. You can eat off those roads by the time they're finished. For the second storm and beyond? Don't worry, the Sun will come out eventually, and if things get too unbearable the DPW will scream "we're broke" and get emergency funds.

3. Reaquaint yourself with your spouse.

4. Build a snowman.

5. Walk to the nearest woods, put on your x/c skis or snowshoes, and go.

6. Stay away from that TV! In fact, shoot the thing.

7. Read a book. Or some seed catalogs.

The food shopping, and shovelling? Manana.

This all works for me anyway, I like Winter.

Tree_Oracle If your ever in Maine during a cold snap. Your invited to come on out on the lobster boat with my hubby. I do believe this is the hardy New Englander your looking for.
Please dress warmly.As there is NO HEAT on a lobster boat. You may have to wait a half hour before he takes off from the dock as the bait is usally frozen into solid blocks of ice and he has to soak it over board for abit so he can chop it apart. While the baits over board thawing he will be trying to untie the frozen icy ropes from the dock.
If you pick a really cold day.You will be rewarded by getting to see all the sea smoke rolling over and around you.
Also wear proper foot gear. If its a rough day the waves coming over the bow usually end up freezing on the floor of the boat making it really hard to walk. Don't plan on hanging onto the railings either as they also are very icy. Also if you have a beard or mustache make sure none of the sea spray get on them as they also will get that icy look!
When you think you can't bare the cold any more you can stick your hands or feet in his hot tank that usually has fairly warm water in it good for a quick thaw out.
Don't bother bringing any food as it will be froze solid by lunch time. Hot thermos of coffee might still be unthawed by then.
Set your alarm early as the boat leaves the dock at sunrise. And he ties back up as the sun sets.
And if its snowed the night before ( bring a shovel)he sure could use some help shoveling the dock off before he goes out his does this before day break.
Non native New Englanders a dime a dozen.. Hardy native 3rd generation Maine lobstermen. PRICELESS He loves his job.

maine_gardener - please don't introduce Tree_Oracle to your husband. He will lose his sweeping generalizations battle cry. Or maybe he will grudgingly admit that, OK, may be there is ONE... but all the rest of us are pansies. LOL

It's OK Tree_Oracle - just come to a CT plant swap - or better yet Logees in January and I will give you a hug. All of the older men in my family are curmudgeonly to one degree or another and I have a soft spot for them. I'm not sure if it is in my head or heart though!

Deb (not as hardy as a Maine lobsterman)

AdamM321 -

I don't know when the last time you were in SoFla - but you wouldn't recognize it if it has been twenty years. US 1 is completely built up - every square inch - from Palm Beach down. I am sure it is also north of PB, but I never went there. Pompano has gotten quite a 'reputation' and not in a good way. For some reason, it has the look and feel of Fort Laud's ugly little sister. No one really wants to live there anymore if you can afford to be anywhere else.

Fort L is no longer 'beautiful' in the æsthetic sense. It's a big, busy, crowded, semi-cosmopolitan, dirty metro. The Old Florida that you remember is long, long gone. Oh, and you can't tell where one city ends and another begins anymore aside from the signs. IF you see them at all as you are dodging some of the worst drivers I have ever had the misery to be driving amongst. Yikes.

Be thankful you had the brains to manage to leave after 'only' seven months. It took me four years to wise up. South Florida is NOT for the faint of heart. Or light of bank account.

Jim

I will be the first to group myself with the pansies :) Although, since icicle pansies are pretty darned hardy, sometimes blooming under the snow, I'd have to say that I'm a basil instead. Dies with the first frost. That being said, I made it to work when the weathermen predicted terrible commuting in the ice storm this morning. Amazingly, the worst part of my drive was walk up the sidewalk from the parking lot at work. But we had quite a few people call in sick because of the storm that never materialzed. We have a boat also and do a little hobby lobstering. Since we aren't lobstermen by trade, we don't have to risk our safety in the bad weather. I've been out in 15 foot seas and I definately didn't like it and care never to repeat the experience. We are spoiled by having a little propane grill on the boat so we have hot food. Nothing goes better with cod fishing than a hot bowl of chili.

I've been taking my dog out for a walk in the snow every night now that everyone's got their Christmas lights on. My 13 year old Golden Retriever turns into a puppy when she sees snow. She has to stop and plant her face into every snowbank we pass. The air is brisk, but clean and fresh, much nicer than that heavy stuff in the summer. The house feels a lot warmer when you get back too.

Jim_G-Ma, you forgot drink a glass of wine, listen to James Taylor, and watch it snow.

Pats are beating the snot out of the Bucs. Looking forward to the playoff game in the snow.

I am watching the game and decorating the tree. Go Pats!!!

I'll bet Peyton is not feeling too well right about now! That was beautiful!

Watching the Fifth Quarter and savoring every replay.

Hi Jim,

I haven't been back to Fort Lauderdale in 20 years, but if it has changed that much, I am just glad to have in my memory how gorgeous it was. It was like paradise to us. [g] Pompano was just like a suburb of Fort Lauderdale then. It wasn't built up, the beaches were immaculate. I remember it as being friendly, slow paced, tropical, balmy. Not commercial really.

Jim, I really enjoy winter too. Last year was one of the few that I was just tired of the snow by March. I was ready for spring, but we had more snowstorms than I ever remember.

Rudy...we used to have a dog and he loved to get out of the house in the winter too. You brought back fond memories, walking our dog around the neighborhood and at our local nature areas too.

I LOVE the air in the winter! Doesn't snow have a 'smell'? LOL It seems that way to me.

Rudy....glass of wine, listen to any music, shut off the lights inside, turn on the outdoor lights and watch the snow falling

No one mentioned taking your kids sledding? One of my favorite things to do when the kids were small. [g]

adam

The hill where we used to sled until our feet were numb and our pocketful of Kleenex was soaked or disintigrated, now has a big house smack in the middle of it. Development has taken a lot of the good sled hills. But there are still some remaining in areas where conservation easements have slowed the rampant building.

What happened to the Buccs? They were flattened! Were they playing with mainly rookies and injured guys? I mean, Brady had his injury, but the Pats looked to be better staffed than the Buccs in Saturday's game.