Montmorency sour cherries. Sour cherries don't need a pollenizer, so you can only plant one of them. I'm not going to get into a discussion of rootstocks because I don't know much about fruit trees, really.

high bush blueberries- nhbabs - different fruit areas, since they come as perennials (strawberries), shrubs, and trees as well as the vines for the arbor.
A peach tree Solana
Rhubarb Bug
perimeter fence on which wine and eating grapes are grown. Then, set inside the fence about 8' is a three strand fence with dwarf fruit trees trained on it - Nandina
lingonberry -- Vaccineum vitis-idaea -- a cranberry-like fruit - Cady
Montmorency sour cherries - Mad Gal

Thanks Mad Gal I must admit again I am not familiar with sour cherries are they typically used in pies?

idabean it's your turn

I'm not into edible plants at all, but Cady's choice, Lingonberry, brought back a distant memories of 'LB collecting' trips I went couple of times in early 70's.
If I recall correctly, in a right conditions (semi-swamp areas?) it could bloom and produce berries twice a year.
Don't remember anything about ornamental values, but taste of the freshly made LB jam is something you'll not ever forget once you try it. Granted.

Idabean must be busy so it is my turn

Each fall my sister leaves her tropical paradise and migrates north to take in the sights, smells, and taste, of New England. A prime event in this sojourn is apple picking, we spend a week traveling from orchard to orchard tasting and picking bushels of apples, researching the Johnny Appleseed Trail,and of course discuss apples with any farmer not too afraid to talk to my sister the crazy lady who is wearing an apple beanie on her head. It is in honor of my sister and best friend that I would like to choose some of Nandina's dwarf fencing be three different apple varieties that are not typically found in the market place.

Hudson Golden Gem, Roxbury Russet, Winter Banana

high bush blueberries- nhbabs - different fruit areas, since they come as perennials (strawberries), shrubs, and trees as well as the vines for the arbor.
A peach tree Solana
Rhubarb Bug
perimeter fence on which wine and eating grapes are grown. Then, set inside the fence about 8' is a three strand fence with dwarf fruit trees trained on it - Nandina
Hudson Golden Gem, Roxbury Russet, Winter Banana-kt
lingonberry -- Vaccineum vitis-idaea -- a cranberry-like fruit - Cady
Montmorency sour cherries - Mad Gal

york rose it is your turn

I'm worried about the coons eating the grapes...the rascals!

My family likes sour cherries to eat. It's a common PYO fruit around here, and if left to ripen on the tree they are almost as sweet as sweet cherries with more cherry flavor. The survivors get made into jelly, jam, pies, cobblers or anything else cherry. One of these days I'd like to make cherry spirits, but I never seem to remember that until they've all disappeared.

Katy, have you or your sister read The Botany of Desire ? It's in 4 sections, one of which is about apples. It has some really interesting info on the history of apples in the US, and about Johnny Appleseed; the kind of info they most definitely do not teach in school. If you haven't seen it, it's worth picking up - in fact any gardener would probably like it, although it's not about gardening per se.

Ego,
Lingonberry is a small plant, so it much for large-impact ornamental value, but it is perfect for trough gardens or peaty rock gardens if kept moist. It has tiny, shiny, evergreen leaves that get a cranberry red tinge during winter, so planting a lot of it as groundcover or in a low trough does provide some winter interest.

I still have a "regular" cranberry planted in a trough with a bog rosemary, and I'm hoping that it will provide the same type of winter appeal.

Speaking of Montmorency cherry, like a dope I bought one at Home Depot last March because it had fat buds and looked robust. It was in a container, but the rootball was inside a nylon net bag, so I thought "Wow. Field grown." Planted it, waited. It broke dormancy, but the buds never developed into full leaves. Then it shriveled and died. Pulled it up to find that it had been root pruned so severely, when dug up in the field, that it had less than 6" of root, and no root ends with fine root hairs. In other words, it had been butchered by some field hand who knew nothing about root pruning or transplanting trees and shrubs.

That is the last time I'll ever buy "field grown" from a big box. Container grown only. Worst of all, I should have known better.

I meant:
Lingonberry is a small plant, so it doesn't have a large-impact ornamental value, but it is perfect for trough gardens or peaty rock gardens if kept moist.

Cady, yes I know it's a very short plant, something like 12" tall at most and collecting berries was a pain in a ***.
Of course, it was a 30 years ago and at that time I didn't know oak from the maple, but now, when you brought this name to the light, I'm thinking that cotoneaster's stands pretty much resemle wild stands of lingonberry where we were 'feeding'. I also remember swampy soil, full sun and zillions of mosquitos. Does it make sense?

Yup. Makes complete sense. Lingonberry will grow in the same conditions as its congenors, blueberry and cranberry. It grows in swampy ground but also in uplands as long as the soil is moist and acidic. It does look a bit like the smaller types of cotoneaster, too. Good comparison.

The conditions you were picking in, remind me of blueberrying on a electric company right-of-way, many years ago. Blazing sun, voracious 'skeeters, humidity, and the blueberries were surrounded by huge, bramble bushes with prickers like razors(we also harvested blackberries and related bramble fruits with the blueberries). I was covered with scratches and bug bites, but the boxes of juicy berries were the payoff.

Bug have no fear re the coons and our grapes EGO has *virtually* made them all move on down the road.
dtd Thanks for the recommendation now what do you think my in-laws would like for the holidays? Although Michael Pollan has a place up island I don't think he often speaks this summer however his "The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals" came out at the same time he did a fund raiser for the Farm Institute I went instead to hear Jane Goodall (who was really inspiring) and was told afterwards Michael Pollen was really terrific.

Cady LOVE the suggestion of Lingonberry in a trough. Each year I swear I will dedicate an afternoon and make a few maybe its time to loosen my purse strings and make a purchase. Sorry about your tree the same thing happened to me with Mahonneys and I went back spoke to the manager who replaced my *field slaughtered* Ilex glabra with more *field slaughtered* Ilex glabra!

Bug your name was picked out of the hat.

Kt, Yow! Was that the Mahoney's in Osterville? I've visited the one in Winchester. Really, unless the managers get complaints from customers, they won't know if they are getting substandard materials from their nursery growers. Unless, of course, the plants sit on the lot unbought, and reveal their problems by eventually dying despite being watered.

The tree I got at Home Despot was from a grower's collective out of Franklin, Conn. I saved the tag and planned to write to them, since the zipcode is included, and let them know. But most complaints (if any) probably just go right to the big box store that sold it, and the store just dumps it and gets a credit from the grower, without having to give explanations for why the shrub/perennial died. I figure that writing right to the grower will at least alert them that their field labor is not adequately trained or careful. Don't know if it will help, but you never know.

You definitely should buy a couple troughs. They are addictive, though. I started with a couple and now have them scattered around the garden, for everything from dwarf conifers to hostas, sedges and succulents.

Bug must be busy

dtd it is your turn.

Cady,
The Mahoneys I refered to is actually Jardin Mahoneys here on the island. It is the same family (one of the sons) but not under the same Mahoneys umbrella. It has the same feel as the others with all the bells and whistles (xmas tree vibrating machine!!). Because I have access to so few nurseries I learned a long time ago to never write off any nursery, they have all seem to change a little for the good and bad each year. I have always admired the troughs at Avant Gardens so this just might be my "year of the trough"...oh god another collection!!

I'm back...but what to choose. Let's see, currants! I love them all, black, white or red. I am aware that they are not allowed in some areas, especially near white pine trees, but new alternatives are available. I adore them fresh...forget about jam and cooking them up in the July and Augus heat. Yuck.

"...they are not allowed in some areas, especially near white pine trees..."

Why?

Sorry, didn't check the link first.

Bug,
Very interesting and I think our garden has everything this plant requires. Good to learn they have resistant varieties now.

dtd must be busy Solana its your turn to dazzle us.

Solana must be busy so Nandina it is your turn.

Currants aren't allowed at all in Massachusetts, because they are vectors for a rust that is a danger to agricultural/nursery crops. I've wanted to have currants for ages. sigh.

I'd like to add woodland strawberries - frais des bois. It's a good groundcover in part shade, so would work well bettween the fruit trees and blueberries or currants. Mine produce just enough berries, even in fairly deep shade, to draw me out to the "woods" where my blueberries grow when the area needs weeding and before the blues are ripe. The birds get most of the berries, but the handfull that I get each year is worth the space (which would otherwise just be mulch). They produce sporadically during the growing season.

These plants came from New Hampshire, from my favorite aunt's garden, so I know they're quite hardy.

We really should add two Beach plums (Prunus maritima) to the fruit garden. Planted inland away from the ocean they grow into rounded 6' shrubs and can also be used in a shrub border. Two are needed for fertilization. Generally they set fruit every other year if spring conditions are just right when they bloom. Beach plum jelly is easy to make and oh so good! I like to plant a Clematis montana var. at the base of them to scramble through the tight branching. Doesn't bother the bush and it is a beautiful sight in the spring when the Clematis blossoms (which bloom on old wood) drip from the branches.

Cady,
I wonder if the new resistant varieties that bug mentioned are now allowed...could this be the year for good news?
Nan,
Any fruit let alone a strawberry that will produce in partial shade is a winner in my book. Are the leaves attractive enough to use this plant as edging?
Nandina,
My favorite thing about beach plums is the back ground of deep dark almost *Pitch* black bark with the clear white/pink blossoms in the earliest spring. I am not one who can appreciate the value of liquors with the exception of Beach Plum Liquor. kt

I fear we will not be able to grow a montana clematis in this region. Although it might barely survive, it would not bloom. Believe me, I have tried everything to have a montana...with zero success. The plum sounds excellent though.

Fraises des bois are fabulous. In my garden they took over. Did I mind? No, I simply removed the blueberries that were a pain in terms of upkeep, and then had more room for strawberries.

Bug,
Why were the blueberries high maintenance? I put in a bunch over the past two seasons, and need to know if I'm going to be in over my head (in many ways).\

Katy,
I do remember reading about some new resistant varieties, but don't know if the regulations have been relaxed to allow them. Will do some checking at the cooperative extention website.

The strawberry foliage is a nice edger, although maybe not for the overly tidy gardener. How much of a neatnick is our virtual gardener/homeowner?

I would not call it invasive, either, although mine is trying to take over a brick patio; I assume that it's because of my warmer zone. My aunt in NH had no problem with invasiveness with the parent plants.

Since we can't have a C. montana, and since this garden is in zone 4, maybe Sweet Autumn Clematis would be a good substitute - late summer blooms might work well with the fruit trees. It's a noxious weed here, so I like the idea of being able to grow it without worrying about that, even if only in an imaginary garden.

Sorry I missed my turn. Despite Bug's objection that raspberries need pruning & spread, I hope we can find room for a small patch. Maybe somewhere they can be mown around?

They're so fragile and expensive to purchase, yet easy to freeze. Red raspberry vinegar makes a surprisingly delicious beverage (add seltzer) and chocolate-raspberry truffles are the most-requested of my holiday treats. Harvesting before the birds share helps control the spread.

Ana, did you have to mention raspberry chocolate truffles??? Now I have to go to the killer confection shop over in Pride's Crossing (Beverly, Mass.) to see if they have any. lol
Someday I'll venture into making my own from the wild bramble fruits that always seem to return to my garden even after conscientious weeding.

If SAC is not invasive in z4, so C. tangutica not suppose to be invasive as well. Right? Wrong?
I know the place where those two growing together in z5 and it does make sense to put two monsters together to enjoy blooms at the different times. Both are group 3, so in that respect they are compatible.

My experience with SAC is that it does not spread around. (zone 4/5) Friends find that it dies mysteriously every few years.

My tangutica does spread around, but it is possible to dig up the smaller plants quite easily. There are ever so many tanguticas though, and they behave differently - in my gardens at least.

The COTW search produce 19 tanguticas.

high bush blueberries- nhbabs - different fruit areas, since they come as perennials (strawberries), shrubs, and trees as well as the vines for the arbor.
A peach tree Solana
Rhubarb Bug
perimeter fence on which wine and eating grapes are grown. Then, set inside the fence about 8' is a three strand fence with dwarf fruit trees trained on it - Nandina
Hudson Golden Gem, Roxbury Russet, Winter Banana-kt
lingonberry -- Vaccineum vitis-idaea -- a cranberry-like fruit - Cady
Montmorency sour cherries - Mad Gal
woodland strawberries - frais des bois - dtd
two Beach plums (Prunus maritima) - Nandina - sweet autum clematis & c.tangutica-variety to be determined
raspberries - Solana
currents - bug still to be determined

nhbabs it is your turn

I hope I did not object too loudly on the raspberries. I grow them and adore them. Mine are a late Fall variety that I prune to the ground in November each year. They are a pain to keep in bounds, but worth the labor.

As to blueberries, I grew 3-4 varieties and never had fruit. I spent ages pruning off dead stuff, adding acid to the soil, etc. I wanted the space for better things. Perhaps I was too impatient.

I hope Cady's investigation on currants will allow them. What state is our virtual garden in? We'll need to know their laws.

Today is relatively mild, so maybe we'll get the rain barrels and dock stored in the barn.

We never discussed which New England state it would be in, just the zone. It could be in western Mass or just over the western border in New York, since both share the Berkshires, where there are pockets of zone 4a and 4b. Or northern Vermont, New Hampshire or Maine (interior Maine - not coastal). Maybe on the border of Quebec or New Brunswick.

New York allows currants, at least in certain areas. It's become a bit of a trendy cash crop, and we have a couple of local producers of cassis. However, sandy soil is something of a myth around here. The classic clay with rocks is pretty ubiquitous, and a lot of that clay seems to be quite limy. When we visited Saratoga Battlefield, the plant life definitely indicated soil much like mine - heavy and with a pH over 7. There was acidic sandy soil around Saranac Lake.

I'm sorry that Clematis montana will not survive Zone 4. I added that as an after thought when suggesting adding Beach plums to the fruit garden. Any Clematis that blooms on old wood could be substituted.

May I be allowed to interject a Beach plum thought which I post from time to time. One of the most sought after plants in the horticultural world is a Beach plum that fruits consistantly, year after year. Many have spent their lifetimes trying to locate or hybridize this elusive plum. If anyone out there has a favorite bush, either in the wild or under cultivation, that reliably fruits every year please post here. I can put you in touch with the right people who would be very interested in your find. I suspect that this elusive Beach plum, which may be growing on a remote sand dune unnoticed, would be named after you. Keep your eyes open!

Looks like upstate New York along the Berkshires and Mass. border is a good site for our pipedream garden. :)

I just checked a wonderful resource, "Ask the Berryman," and found to my chagrin that currants and gooseberries are still banned in Mass. (though apparently you can get a permit to grow them... subject to strict inspections by plant health and hygiene/sanitation officials).

The website is a wealth of berry fruit info. Here's a link to the section about currants, but go to the main page and venture out from there to see all the mouthwatering fruit advice.

Went out today and photographed these beach plums to illustrate why I would like to propose lichen covered for year round added interest.

Beautiful, Kt. The bayberries up heah on the Nawth Shawh get the lichen coat too.

I wonder whether it's something that would happen well inland -- do you think that our moist coastal air has something to do with the abundance of lichen?

Cady,
My limited 101 knowledge of lichens is that yes they prefer a maritime environment but to be honest I don't know there range. As I learn more I will share. Once I get a few computer glitches worked out I am moving the lichens 101 thread to a blog that I hope folks will visit throughout the winter. The berryman site was such a good one I have added it to my favorites..thanks
Up State NY along the Berkshires and Mass border - (Saranac Lake?) is such a beautiful diverse area great choice. Joe and I stayed at a Trustees of the Reservations property in Williamstown MA. called Field Farm that was wonderful.
high bush blueberries- nhbabs - different fruit areas, since they come as perennials (strawberries), shrubs, and trees as well as the vines for the arbor.
A peach tree Solana
Rhubarb Bug
perimeter fence on which wine and eating grapes are grown. Then, set inside the fence about 8' is a three strand fence with dwarf fruit trees trained on it - Nandina
Hudson Golden Gem, Roxbury Russet, Winter Banana-kt
lingonberry -- Vaccineum vitis-idaea -- a cranberry-like fruit - Cady
Montmorency sour cherries - Mad Gal
woodland strawberries - frais des bois - dtd
two Beach plums (Prunus maritima) - Nandina - sweet autum clematis & c.tangutica-variety to be determined
raspberries - Solana
currents - bug

nhbabs must be busy Martie it is your turn

I was too subtle last time.
currAnts.

I have an amazing text on Lichen with wondrous photos. I cannot lift it because it is so complete. If you are interested in title and author, let me know.

high bush blueberries- nhbabs - different fruit areas, since they come as perennials (strawberries), shrubs, and trees as well as the vines for the arbor.
A peach tree Solana
Rhubarb Bug
perimeter fence on which wine and eating grapes are grown. Then, set inside the fence about 8' is a three strand fence with dwarf fruit trees trained on it - Nandina
Hudson Golden Gem, Roxbury Russet, Winter Banana-kt
lingonberry -- Vaccineum vitis-idaea -- a cranberry-like fruit - Cady
Montmorency sour cherries - Mad Gal
woodland strawberries - frais des bois - dtd
two Beach plums (Prunus maritima) - Nandina - sweet autum clematis & c.tangutica-variety to be determined
raspberries - Solana
currants - bug

Martie must be busy Cady its your turn

Two espaliered Chardonnay grapevines in big oak half-barrels, gracing the entrance to the fruit garden area. Because grapes may not overwinter outdoors in 4b (there are some very hardy offshoots of the native "Concord" strain that can tolerate 4b, but in our fantasy garden we would rather have fun with the more exotic Vitis vinifera and stow them in the cellar during their winter dormancy. Use a hand-truck to move them.

From mid-spring through late fall, they can adorn the garden. I love the graceful tendrils, clusters of flowers that turn to compact bunches of fruit, and the autumn foliage.

When the grapes go dormant in late fall, prune them before putting them in storage and use the clippings to make wreathes and other rustic decor.

In my milder region, I grow Concord, Niagra and other native cultivars as permanent garden plantings, They cover a chainlink fence and obscure it. But I would love to do espalier!

Chardonnay?!?!! Boy you really aren't from around here. The official white wine grape is Seyval. Both Clinton Vineyards and Cascade Winery are marginally 4b, and commercial producers of Seyval Blanc.

Supposedly Cornell has recently produced a wine grape that that is both higher quality and hardier than Seyval.

LOL
You're right, Mad Gallica, I am behind the times when it comes to the wine industry and what they have been doing to come up with cold-hardy cultivars!

When I first contemplated grapes, maybe 7 years ago, I used the Cornell University website on grape growing in NY State as a guide, and recall that there were some cold-hardy varieties being introduced for commercial production as wine grapes. I wasn't planning on wine, so decided to go with table and juice grapes from cultivars of the native V. labrusca.

So, go ahead and plant the Seyval Blanc grapes in the garden on a length of fence, but let's still put some espaliered Niagras in oak barrels at the gate. Mulch the Seyvals heavily and bring the Niagras into the cellar in December. :)

high bush blueberries- nhbabs - different fruit areas, since they come as perennials (strawberries), shrubs, and trees as well as the vines for the arbor.
A peach tree Solana
Rhubarb Bug
perimeter fence on which wine and eating grapes are grown. Then, set inside the fence about 8' is a three strand fence with dwarf fruit trees trained on it - Nandina
Hudson Golden Gem, Roxbury Russet, Winter Banana-kt
lingonberry -- Vaccineum vitis-idaea -- a cranberry-like fruit - Cady
Montmorency sour cherries - Mad Gal
woodland strawberries - frais des bois - dtd
two Beach plums (Prunus maritima) - Nandina - sweet autum clematis & c.tangutica-variety to be determined
raspberries - Solana
currants - bug
espaliered grape Niagras in oak barrels at the gate - Cady
Seyval Blanc grapes in the garden on a length of fence - Mad Gal

Nandina it is your turn

Sorry I missed my turn. How about regular cranberries - nice foliage, pretty, though small flowers, and those huge garnet red berries. It makes a good groundcover as long as the soil isn't dry.

We still have lots of room on our interior fence for dwarf fruit trees. Pears are a favorite of mine. So, let's order three different varieties from the ever reliable Miller Nursery in Canandaigua, NY. One each of Clapp's Favorite Dwarf Pear, Max Red Bartlett Dwarf Pear and Collette Dwarf Pear. These will provide an extended period of fruit ripening.

Sorry for the recent absenteeism I have been consumed by a photography project for the holidays that I should have begun in July. Although I wont deny my disappointment in the software landscape designers that never followed through I recently received two different gifts of software, "Master Landscape Pro" by Punch, and" Total 3D Landscape" by Individual. Next week I am looking forward to investing some time with ONE software package, the other I would be happy to give and mail off to anyone interested in loading our garden into the program. Please e-mail me your details and I will ship it off to the first person interested in the project. It should be noted that both pieces of software will accept your own digital photos and integrate into the design. If you have a photo of anything that would be part of our design, house, hardscape, or plant please email to me them as well.
My name came out of the hat so
I am writing this on the boat and relying on poor memory as well as lack of access to researching zone 4 but here goes I would like to add to the fence some sweet cherries.
OT I put together a seasonal card that I wanted to email to you all individually but no one seems to publish there address any more.so. Seasons Greetings. kt

It is your turn dtd.

Here is Katy's greeting card for any who missed it.

I missed the fact that it was my turn, possibly because I've been working on my glögg recipe for several days, trying to duplicate the one I remember from my Swedish grandmother's house at Christmas. There are so many completely different recipes that it's taking quite a toll on us to try them all. Burgundy or sherry? Port or brandy? Whiskey or vodka? I'd like to have it right by Christmas, but that means starting the testing earlier and earlier each day.

What space do we have left? I'm wondering if we can try hardy kiwi in this locale; although they are hardy to -25, the buds can be blasted by late cold snaps. They might succeed with some shade to the east, which would potentially delay the formation of buds. They could be grown along the fence, with the grapes, but I'll defer to northern gardeners who know if this is unrealistic.

Alternatively, if our virtual homeowners are really into fruit, they should probably have some "real" strawberries. They could be grown in a long narrow bed inside the fence (we still have a fence, even though George has banished the deer, don't we?

Or, maybe we have enough fruit for this garden.

Do we also need to talk about the materials we're going to use, like paving and mulch, and about how this area will relate to the rest of the yard? Is it going to evoke an old New England farm yard and orchard, or be a more formal space? Will we include flowers and grasses, or will it be strictly devoted to fruit? Can we have a table and some chairs out here, where we (um, I mean they) can sit and enjoy this garden?