I sure would like to give you some of my P & K, could even spare some other minerals also.

Larry

How big is your garden ? Are you going to use three seperate products? Will you do the whole thing or the "hole" thing??

Boy I'm big help, no answers just moe questions.

Larry, I'd love to have some of your P & K. Can you just stick it in the Star Trek transporter beepy thing?

Speaking of minerals, we've found exactly 4 rocks in the garden here. Four! We're keeping them as special treasures. LOL (Our last place was more rock than dirt -- and that dirt was tight, tight clay that acted like rocks.)

PHJ, altogether, it's roughly 200' x 150'. There are also other, smaller planting areas but they'll be mostly herbs so I won't fertilize them, other than organic material.

The main garden has raised, wide rows so the entire rows will get fertilizers but not the paths. However, both rows and paths will get organic material as a mulch during the growing season so it'll work itself in without being too much at once.

I'm not yet sure what I'll be doing about the NPK. I'm such a newbie to storebought fertilizers, I need to ponder on my options for a while. I do have a few hundred pounds of GardenTone that I'll be topdressing with but I'll still need more P & K, I think.

Diane

Diane,

Here's my random thoughts about soil tests in general and yours in particular.

I hate soil tests. I know they are necessary and, in fact, I often recommend them to folks starting a new garden or starting in a new location, but all those numbers make my head swim and my eyes glaze over.

I am not a numbers person. I am a "look at the soil and see how it looks to you" person, and my general solution for everything is organic matter, organic matter, organic matter.

We had a soil test our first or second year here and it told me what I needed to know "for starters". Ever since then, I've just followed my gut feeling about what I needed to do to the soil, and I suspect you'll do the same. As an experienced gardener, you'll know what your soil needs by how your plants grow, how they look and how they perform, and you'll know what to do to tweak your soil.

Having never seen your soil, from your test results it appears to be sandy and well-draining and low in organic matter and some minerals. Wow, is your magnesium high! I wonder why. Essentially this soil you have at the new place is completely opposite the soil you had at the old place and you'll have to adjust your gardening practices accordingly. You had clay there, right? Clay is high in minerals and once you add enough organic matter to it, it usually has a great CEC. So, you can't expect plants to perform the same in your new soil because it is likely they'll need more nutrition.

Although we gardeners tend to love sandy soils because they drain well, sandy soils often are low in nutrients because of their low CEC and the way nutrients do or do not adsorb to soil particles. Sandy soils (not sandy loam, which has more humus), in essence, drain too quickly.

The most important thing that caught my eye was your low Cation Exchange Capacity. Why? Because when your CEC is low, your plants may have nutritional issues.

As much as I hate some aspects of having clay soil (like the fact it doesn't drain well), it usually has a high CEC, so once you add OM, clay soil is very fertile and plants grow well in it. I know you understand that because you gardened in amended clay in OK and you had great production in the years when the weather cooperated and didn't send drought your way.

Unfortunately, there is only so much you can do to fix a low CEC (adding clay would be one thing you could do, but is highly impractical and probably expensive) and it will take time. So, I'd suggest you start your research with learning about the CEC and cations and anions. Then, with that in mind, the other numbers on your soil test will make more sense to you.

You do have a pretty wonderful pH though. Slightly acidic is great for most veggies and I'd rather have slightly acidic soil than soil that is slightly or highly alkaline.

You may have to rely on pelleted synthetic fertilizers along with your organic fertilizers this first year unless you have access to endless amounts of compost and some manure. (Cow manure can run slightly alkaline so over time the use of a lot of it can raise your pH a little.) With it being your first year there, you just don't have a lot of time to get more organic matter into the soil in time for this year's planting season. In order to build more organic matter more quickly, I'd be tempted to plant clover, buckwheat and other cover crops in the pathways so I could rototill them into the soil at the end of the growing season.

Are you in a heavy rainfall area? More rain per year than you had back in OK? Less? I'm wondering if heavy rainfall routinely leaches nutrients from your soil and that is a contributing factor (along with your low CEC) to why your mineral numbers are mostly low.

Back to your Cation Exchange Capacity. I am not a soil scientist, but I understand a tiny little bit about what the CEC indicates.

CEC is a measurement that indicates your soil's ability to hold nutrients (cations). It is all about positively charged and negatively charged ions. Most (I'm not sure if all) nutrients (examples: K, Ca, Mg) are positively charged ions. In soil, they are attracted to and adsorbed (not absorbed!) by negatively charged ions. What are the negatively charged ions? Humus and clay. It is not easy to adjust a CEC and improvement to it will come slowly. In soil, the two main colloidal particles that you need in order to have a higher CEC are clay and humus (organic matter broken down to its smallest form). Why? Because they are negatively charged. Thus, positively charged ions are attracted to them. Without them, what will the positively charged ions (nutrients) be attracted to? Your soil clearly is lacking in clay and is low in organic matter. Since it isn't easy or even possible in practical terms to add clay to your soil, you'll have to focus on adding organic matter. That's not a news flash, is it?

When your soil has a low CEC, that limits the availablity of nutrients to your plants. Thus, your plants will spend a lot of their internal energy seeking out nutrients in the soil. How does that ultimately affect them? It "uses up" energy that otherwise would be put into growing and producing good yields. Since your soil in its present state has a low CEC that interferes with nutrient uptake ability, you may have to rely more on pelleted synthetic fertilizers this year than you ordinarily would. In your particular soil, you'll need more frequent applications of fertilizer at lower levels instead of less frequent applications at higher levels, at least until you can raise the level of organic matter, which will be an ongoing effort that never ends.

It is a good thing you bought a lot of Espoma organic fertilizer for this year because it will be putting a lot of the trace elements/micronutrients into your soil which is a good thing.

I don't know if anything I said helped but I would try not to be too discouraged by the low CEC. All soil is fixable. It just happens there's no quick fix for a low CEC. Over time, as you build the levels of organic matter/humus in the soil, your CEC should rise. As your CEC improves, nutrients will be more available to your plants.

CEC on soil tests confuses a lot of people and they tend to ignore it, but knowing what your CEC is and what that means is very important. Even if you have lots of nutrients in your soil, and they are well-balanced so no one nutrient dominates the other, if your CEC is too low, the plants cannot take up the nutrients. So, if I had your soil I'd focus in the short-term on getting enough nutrients to the plants this year, and if that means using synthetic pelleted fertizilers, I'd do it. (You know it pains me to say that because I prefer organic fertilizers, but we have to be practical here in terms of getting a harvest this year.) In the long-term, I'd mostly focus on fixing the level of organic matter. One you have enough OM in the soil, everything else will be fine.

In your new location, mulching (and I know you are a mulcher!) will be more important than ever because the mulch will help add OM to the soil as it decomposes.

Dawn

Diane, Take heart in what Eliot Coleman said about his soil test when he bought his land in Maine. It came back saying it was not suitable for agriculture and look what he has done.

(Hiding face here) I have never had a soil test, but I do have a garden.

Carol,

That's too funny. It just goes to show what determination can do. It does make you wonder what Eliot and his wife were thinking when they got back that first soil test, doesn't it?

Lots of people never have a soil test and do just fine. I was afraid that if Diane's soil was "too sandy" she'd need a soil test, though, just to figure out where to start.

Even her comment about the lack of rocks was a clue. Since soil is essentially rocks that have been worn down into a powdery form, the lack of rocks would be a clue to expect low mineral content.

Diane, You can come back to OK to our place with a dump truck and haul home a truck load of clay if you want. : )

I can't guarantee it won't have every weed seed in the world in it though. And cotton root rot too.

I'm hoping one of our professional horticulturalists or horticultural students here will see this and address your mineral deficiencies a little more.

Jay's soil probably is most like yours so you can pick his brain about what has worked for him, and maybe Paula's soil too, just because it is so sandy.

I am assuming you are too far north for nematodes to be an issue? I hope so because when I think of sandy soil I automatically think of nematodes and just cringe.

Dawn

Diane,
When I have time I will look back at some of my tests and compare the results, explanations of what each reading means and also the suggestions I've received. Your PH is wonderful. Due to the alkalinity of the soil and water here that is something I tend to battle. My thoughts on your sulfur being left blank is with your good PH reading you shouldn't need any sulfur. For sandy soil your OM is ok in my opinion. I had two tests ran last year. My OM readings were very similar to yours. The KSU extension service said the readings were ok for sandy loam soil but to keep adding organic matter. The report from Texas plant and soil lab said my CEC readings were 10-20 and fair for my soil type. Most of my nutrient levels were higher than yours. I'm sure all the manure and organic matter I've added has helped. The TPSL lab also suggested using soil activators and inoculants. I did last year. I treated the whole garden so can't say it helped or not. I will find the KSU results and post more later if I see anything that might be of any help. In my soil I imagine I add as much if not more organic matter each season than most gardeners. And my OM readings still are a lot lower than say Dawn's would be in her clay or my sister's in her semi tight ground. But both labs have told me that a OM reading of 2.5-5 is normal and adequate in my type of soil. If it was me I would use a good type of vegetable fertilizer this season like Dawn suggested. In my case I'm not using any because my N-P-K reading are all very high. I added several inches of tree leaves last fall and worked them in which they say should help also. Under the soil they have about all decomposed now. Jay

Dawn, thanks so much for all of that! I had no clue about the CEC but you explained it perfectly in terms I could understand. Is that sort of what happens when there's a lightning storm and plants perk up afterwards? Does that somehow affect whatever charges there are, even if temporarily? Hmm, now I'm getting a vague memory that it's actually something to do with nitrogen fixing. Heck, I'm getting too old to hold this much info in my brain at once.

As for your questions: We very definitely do not have sandy soil. At all. It's clay. Not like Oklahoma clay (!!!), though. It does have very, very, very little organic material in it, though, just a bit of annual corn stubble leftover. In the rainfall department, we actually get quite a bit less than we did in OK. We got 52" or so, average, there. Here, it's 36" or thereabouts. (I'm going from memory so might be off by a couple of inches but I'm in the ballpark.) Most of that moisture falls in the summer, though and, since it's flat, it soaks in instead of running down the hill -- the very opposite of Oklahoma. My world is so topsy turvy! LOL

I've said before that the soil in the garden area "feels" fairly dead to me but the lawn soil "feels" alive and is absolutely teeming with worms. That gives me hope that, with time, I can turn it into great soil.

Carol, I hear ya. This is my first ever soil test. I've gardened in a few different states and always just been able to depend on my gut. Here, though, I felt I was in over my head so caved with a soil test until I have time to get to know the soil. I'm finding the test is making me even less confident in my instincts and it's driving me nuts. I keep thinking I should have just done it my old-fashioned, nutty way just so I'd not be so distracted by "official" numbers.

Jay, I'm with you and Dawn: Tons and tons of organic material will fix most anything that ails ya. It just takes a while. LOL I have hubby trained to grab any and all bags of leaves he can and he makes frequent trips to the yard waste dump in town to get "safe" organic matter. (Not things that have a higher chance of having chemicals.) Plus we contacted the local tree trimming place and they said they'd let us have all sorts of wood chips through the season. But they told you 2.5-5 is normal? Is it just because of the sandy soil so it's expected then?

I hate being new to stuff like this!

Diane

Diane - is there not anywhere close that has a coffee shop you can beg for the grinds? That would take care of a lot of nutrients, wouldn't it? (Given you can haul, mix, etc.)

Out here where I am (and you've seen it) I've got soooooo many different types of dirt. I just have to walk a few yards and it changes so whenever I think "I can plant something here!"...I've just got to start from the ground up.....and it's NEVER the same. The elderberries you gave me last year are planted in clay..(I didn't know, I PROMISE! It was in the now-retired big garden spot.) and they are THRIVING this year. So look at all this as an exercise for the brain! It'll wart off that "Old-Timer's" disease.

Spring is here...and your "gut" feelings will help lead you. YOU know your stuff...so just be one with the dirt. It'll be okay. You're not "new" to stuff like this. YOU GO GIRL!!!! (and associates!)

Paula

Diane,

As for how lightning greens up plants, I am not sure if it has anything to do with the positive and negative charges, although the Earth is negatively charged and the atmosphere is positively charged, so maybe it does. I know it has to do with lightning converting the nitrogen in the air into a form that plants can absorb. Few plants can directly absorb nitrogen from the air, but lightning causes some sort of reaction that makes nitrogen and oxygen in the air bond together to form nitric oxide. When the rain carries the nitric oxide down to the ground, it converts to nitric acid as it hits the ground. Plant roots can absorb nitric oxide. That's why everything greens up so fast after a big Thunderstorm....rainfall and nitric acid.

Well, your soil sounded like poor sand, and that's why I couldn't understand the high magnesium. Now that I know it is clay, the magnesium makes sense, but then your lack of mineral nutrients make less sense because normally clay is high in minerals.

However, if your land has ever been farmed, it is hard to reason out why the soil has "this" or "that" (or doesn't have them) because it likely would have had chemical fertilizers applied over the years and that could have messed with your soil chemistry.

I know clay is very different as you move from west to east across the country, with California clay, for example, being very different from clay in the middle of the USA and east coast clay being more different still. So, it sounds like you have a very different clay there than what you had and what I still have here.

I think it is good news that it is clay, though, because clay is easier to fix than sandy soil. Really, clay is at one end of the spectrum in terms of being tight and not draing well, and sandy soil is at the other end of the spectrum being so loose and well-draining. On one part of our property (a steeply sloping hillside not fit for growing anything except trees and grass) we have sandy clay and it is really good soil. I think it has enough sand that it drains well and enough clay that it doesn't drain "too well". Maybe your clay has some sandy content like that.

Uh oh. Your rainfall will be about the same as mine. If your rain falls mostly in the summer, that's a good thing though because that's when you'll need it most. I remember the first time you and Dorothy told me your annual rainfall in your parts of OK and I about fell off my chair. We had been through too bad drought years with low rainfall here in Love County (less than 19" in 2003 and about 23" in 2005) and there y'all were talking about rainfall in the 40s or 50s and that seemed like an incredible amount to me then.

That's good news about the lawn. It shows that with some organic matter your garden soil should come alive again.

I do think you need to trust your instincts and just file away the numbers for reference. You might not get the yields you'd like the first year but every year your soil will get better. I bet if you can find cardboard to layer under whatever mulch you use, the earthworms in the lawn will flock to the cardboard and start working on improving that soil right away. I only did moderate soil improvement here the first year and we still had a good enough garden that I was not disappointed with my yields. (Nowadays I wouldn't be happy with the yields I had then, but as the soil has gotten better, my expectations have gotten bigger.) At the time, I thought I was putting enough OM into the soil to improve it, and I laugh at that now because it wasn't even close. My "old" clay in Texas must have had a lot of organic matter in it compared to the soil here because it was so much easier to work with than the clay here. Now, in our 13th year here, I can look at the garden soil and know we have almost completely converted the top 8 or 10" of it from red clay to brown clayey-loam, but it took so much more organic matter than I ever dreamed. And, since "heat eats compost", the soil amending will never end, but now most of my amending is from the top down--just from letting mulch continually decompose and mix in with the soil naturally.

I bet a few years from now, you'll look back at the condition of your soil during or prior to your first garden there, and you'll marvel at how much it has improved.

Paula, Our soil is real changeable too. It is mostly clay with an occasional pocket of sand, but the word sand might not be totally accurate because is some spots the sand is more like silt. We have great soil in the forest---about 8 to 10" of rich, black, humusy soil on top of red clay subsoil. I'd love to garden in that soil, but wouldn't clear-cut a 60 or 75 year old woodland just so I could grow something in the good soil.

The creeks have sand, and more and more sand washes into them from the higher ground across the road every time it rains hard. Tim has joked with our neighbors that they can come over with a front end loader and reclaim their sand from our creek bed any time they want. It is funny seeing their sandy soil across the road when we have the dreadful clay in such close proximity. I won't complain though because people just a ranch or two away have extremely rocky ground. I don't think they could plant a garden if they had to. Whenever I'm hating my clay, which is about every day, I remind myself that people about a half-mile away are hating their rocks!

Dawn

Paula, those elderberries came right out of the world's tightest clay so they probably felt right at home. LOL

Dawn, I just assumed you knew it was clay and heavily farmed cornfield for years before we bought the place. Why? Because you know everything so I assumed you could read minds as well. LOL

As much as I cussed our rocky clay in OK, I knew it was very fertile and loved that about it. I sure hope the people who bought it appreciate the soil we took years to build! I doubt it, though, as the majority of folks aren't gardeners, especially around there.

The low annual rainfall was a bit of a shocker to me when we moved here. I expected it to be higher but then looked at the monthly breakdowns. It was a relief to learn that it fell mostly in the summer months. Let me see if I can find that link...

MARION
Jan 1.58
Feb 1.96
Mar 3.07
Apr 3.65
May 4.90
Jun 3.40
Jul 4.16
Aug 3.75
Sep 3.27
Oct 3.06
Nov 3.34
Dec 2.43
Annual Total 38.56

Now if we could just get Mother Nature to take a look at the official averages and quit having so many unpredictable mood swings, this gardening thing would be a lot easier.

Diane

GW is rejecting the MO rainfall data link for some reason so here it is: http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Missouri/Publications/Weather_Data/Missouri_30-year_Average_Precipitation.pdf

Diane,
Knowing now that you have a clay type soil and not sand then my comments about the OM content aren't really relevant. I wish I could find my KSU soil test reports. I have 2 around here somewhere. The professor that wrote the last report has done a lot of work in this area mainly on farm ground but also with some larger truck farms. So knows this area well. Along with our alkaline soils and water. He went into some detail why my sandy soil would never have the OM numbers of a clay soil and why it wasn't important that it did. He also said the numbers will vary depending on which test they use. And explained that is why you will see such a difference between tests from 2 different labs. The important thing he stated wasn't the type of test ran so much as knowing which type was conducted so you can properly compare results. Of course he feels what they run is as good as any. He said from looking at my soil before you ever run tests it is in very good shape. And he said for sandy soil it really has a lot of OM matter. My MG is high here also in my sandy soil.

Off topic a little. While filling with gas yesterday another fair sized gardener who grows 65 or so tomatoes and 150 or more peppers pulled up to the pump next to me and we had a nice visit. He also grows in a very sandy area about 3 miles east of me. He was a fertilizer manager at the local co-op so you know which methods he leans too. He has never added the organic matter like I have. His sand may be just a little worse than mine when I started. Water drains so fast that during the hot weather less than a day after an inch rain he is watering. His usage is at least triple of mine. On hot days he has a timer and has to water more than once. Even during the extreme heat I never water anymore than every other day but usually every 3rd or 4th day. When I started it was every like like he does during the extreme heat. He also doesn't mulch like I do. He raises a good garden and in most years has good results. But made me remember what my soil was like when I started. And again reinforced that like Dawn and also the KSU professor stated the soil and plants will many times tell you more than numbers from a test. What a test will do is give you and idea of where you are and where you need to go especially if plant symptoms could be caused by more than one source. I feel the soil tests are a good tool if used in conjunction with your observations and plant performance. Not something that is the sole answer. He did say he has decided he needs to add some manure. He just hasn't found what he feels is a safe source. And also he is like me he feels there maybe be another cold spell. We have both learned our lessons over the last 4-5 years. He has a greenhouse start his plants. He just ordered them Friday. They should be started this week. He said he still plans on planting around May 10th -15th. Same as I am. I will plant some in earlier if the long term looks favorable and also will purchase a few big ones to take a gamble on. Jay

I found a place in Quincy that sells phosphorus and potassium by the 50# bag -- or so they said. So we drove in there today, an hour each way, to buy it. Nope, they did not have it. They had normal trio fertilizers that wouldn't do me any good. Argh. To top it off, they were incredibly rude!! I'm not even going to go into it or my blood will start boiling again. LOL

I tried Keller & Sons but they don't have what I need -- but did manage to find both Bt and spinosyn there so got a bottle of each to do battle with this year.

I'll see if Lowe's has the P & K when I'm there tomorrow. More reading today enlightened me to the fact that P & K do not move much more than an inch once applied -- they bind to the soil pretty hard, at least in clay soils, so you need get them mixed in before planting. They said that top and side dressing of P & K doesn't do nearly as much good when there's this much of a deficiency so I need to get it done before I start planting out this week. After that initial big boost for the major two deficiencies, I'll do top/side dressing with the garden tone throughout the season.

And mulch, mulch, mulch as it becomes available. Next year, I won't bother (I hope) since I'll have worked in quite a bit of organic material over the year.

That's the grand plan. And we all know how plans go.... LOL

Diane

Diane, I think they use P & K in animal feed. I use to get it free where they off loaded rail cars. I never needed it because I have a high mineral count anyway but I did get it for friends. If you live near a transfer station you might get all you need for just hauling it off.

Larry

cotton bur compost would be good to get your levels back up.

Some cities offer free compost to their residents, you might check on that.

And my plan is already up in flames. LOL No phosphorus or potassium to be found anywhere and, frankly, I'm tired of fretting over it. Phhbbt. I'm just going to work in Garden-Tone and top dress with that through the season, along with the ever-present mulch. I'll try to remember and get the soil retested 5-10 years down the road and compare the results.

Thanks for the ideas, Larry and boomer sooner! I'll keep my eyes open for both of those.

Diane

Diane,

Are you saying you cant fine no Super phosphate, rock phosphate or Bone meal in that area? I would think in a corn growing area they would be selling it along the side of the road.

Larry

I did find some but only in little 1-4# bags and I wasn't willing to pay what that would add up to. I know there has to be a farmer's supply store somewhere that has it but I've not yet found it. Next time I catch the farmer next door out on a walk, I'll ask him.

Crazy, huh?

Diane

Daine,
I too need lot and lot of garden sulfur/sulphur, phosphorous, and bone meal to bring down soil pH (from 8 to 7)... I have been to many stores but no luck , none of them sell individual formula.. all i can see to trio of NPK... my soil has sufficient quantity of potash, what I need is soil soil acidifier! Most of the online deals sell small bad 2-5lbs... as you said that not the worth shipment. I just wonder why not local store carry those fertilizers being native soil has high pH? -Chandra

Diane,

I pulled my soil test from last year to show you why I would like to give you some of my P & K.

Test reads
P= 1030 lb/a
K= 1960 lb/a
Ca= 8580 lb/a
Mg= 1288 lb/a
SO4-S= 318 lb/a
Zn= 104 lb/a
Fe= 410 lb/a
Mn= 386 lb/a
Cu= 7.8 lb/a
B= 6.8 lb/a
NO3-N left blank---- Was told state does not test for nitrogen.

PH= 6.5
ECEC= 34

I have another test that is a little lower than this one, but it is too high also. You can see why I would like to share some of my mineral with you.

Larry

Larry, please send me some P LOL! take some K in exchange.

Our soil has adequate amount of K and but lacks P. I am looking for P everywhere... no luck so far. -Chandra

Chandra, I would like to send some mineral to the plant exchange. I am closer to being at the toxic level than I am of having too little. I feel I am walking a thin line, I want to build my soil with organic matter but I already have above optimum in Zn, P, and K, and if I don't keep the PH at the proper lever Fe can be a problem.

I have been thinking about growing corn in that garden and feeding the stalks to the cattle, of shredding them and tilling them into my new garden. I have not tested it yet so I have no idea what the mineral count in it is. I only started the new garden last year and it has few amendments in it.

Larry

Sounds like the three of us need to get together and mix all of our garden dirt into one big, happy, moderate mix. It would be perfect!

Diane