Everybody is entitled to his/her opinion, but I doubt that the man spent more than one summer trying it. And those of us who have gardened for years without chemicals know that the secret is the soil and building well balanced soil loaded with organic matter takes years. And true, it takes diligance. You have to keep a close eye on your plants and be ready to hand pick, spray with soap or even a strong jet of water or sometimes just wait and see how many ladybugs, assasin bugs, and wasps visit the garden to eat the larvae of the pest plants. Teach your kids not to freak out at the occasional broccoli worm and be prepared to cut the tips off the ends of the corn ears that have a corn worm. And be prepared to hang the traps when the Japanese Beetles arrive.

I don't think that Organic Gardening is a "religion" as much as it is a committment to educating ourselves.

Mari,

Well, what do you know? The eternal dispute between the chemical growers and the organic growers rages on. I suspect it never will change. Please don't feel defeated. Rememer the old Chinese saying "There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same." There are many ways to garden, but we all end up at the same place....with a garden we're mostly pleased with. Those of us who follow the organic path think it is best and those who follow the chemical path think it is best, and both are OK....different strokes for different folks, you know.

I have grown mostly organically since the mid-1980s and I believe it works as well as or better than the use of chemicals, and yet there's times I'll use a chemical, though generally not a chemical pesticide. Sometimes I'll use a chemical fungicidal agent like chlorothanil or a chemical herbicide like Round-up on Bermuda grass. The truth is that organic gardening has nothing that is nearly as effective on Bermuda grass as Round-up. I might use it once every 3 or 4 years, and I don't think I'll be sent to Organic Hell because I use Round-up a couple of times a decade.

For me, organic growing is not a religion (but I do know some true organic zealots who treat it as a religion, and I know folks on the chemical side who do the same for their methods). Growing organically is a philosophy and, in my case, even perhaps a lifestyle. I do think an organic program works, but you have to use the whole program.....organic soil amendment and preparation, organic fertilizers (I have mixed feelings on this), and organic disease and pest solutions. For example, I don't think using organic pest solutions is nearly as effective in a landscape that doesn't have a total organic program. And, what good is it to buy/release beneficial insects if you turn around a month or two later and spray a pesticide that kills them? I think an organic program works if you are devoted to it and believe in it, but I also don't think the world ends if you have to rely upon a non-organic solution every now and then.

For example, I always prefer soil amendment with compost, composted manure and other natural products like bone meal, blood meal, soft rock phosphate,greensand, earthworm castings, etc. BUT there are a couple of times I'll use an quick shot of Miracle Grow to boost plant performance. One of those times is when persistently wet, soggy soil that never dries out is causing plant nutrient problems. In those conditions, the excess water in the soil clogs up the roots and the plants cannot take up nutrients. So, I'll use a foliar feeding of MG so they can absorb enough nutrition through their leaves to compensate for that. Another time I'll use MG is when we have a cool spell in the midst of the summer heat, and I know that by timing the use of a Bloom Booster fertilizer a few days before the cool spell, I'll increase the chance of having tomatoes and peppers flower and set fruit during the cool spell. You can't get results timed just like that with organic fertilizers because they are more slow-acting. So, clearly I'm not an organic purist, but I try to garden as naturally as possible. I also like to pot up seedlings in MG Potting Soil because they grow so much better and are worry-free at a busy time of the year when I don't have time to mess with feeding them a water-soluable food weekly or every other week.

For me, the transition from chemical-based gardening to organic gardening roughly coincided with two events: (a) the birth of my son and (b) the discovery of Howard Garret's (aka The Dirt Doctor) radio show "The Natural Way". After my son was born, I really didn't want to use any chemical products on the lawn that he'd be crawing, walking, running and playing on. It really was a no-brainer. A couple of years later (I don't remember the year), I discovered Howard Garrett's radio show on WBAP radio in Fort Worth, which was a whole can of worms in itself.

I listened to Howard and liked his ideas and philosophy, even though at the time he seemed a bit too much of a zealot and maybe too extremely organic. I had listened to the great Neil Sperry on his radio show on KRLD radio for as long as it had been on the air...I think since about 1977 or 1978 and I had read his newspaper columns for longer than that. Neil was all-chemical, Howard was all-organic and I respected them both and saw that both of them made good points, but they thoroughly despised one another and did nothing to hide their feelings, only referring to 'the other guy' in their broadcasts, though not by name. So, for years I listened to Neil and followed all his advice, except when it involved chemicals of any sort, and I listened to Howard and followed his advice on organic products. It was sort of like being a schizophrenic gardener because I felt torn in half between them. Eventually, though, I just accepted that Neil was/is the most knowledgeable horticulturalist in the state of Texas (and beyond) and that Howard was/is on the cutting edge of the organic movement and his knowlege was way up there, along with Malcom Beck's. Is that where I am today? Pretty much.

For me, the real issue is that we cannot know what the various chemicals do when combined, because each of them is studied separately for their adverse affect on health (and some of them are carcinogenics).

If you have ever watched migrant farm workers harvest a field, it can be an eye-opening experience. Many of them wear several layers of clothing, including long sleeves and gloves, in brutally hot weather, and even wrap bandanas and strips of cloth around every inch of exposed skin? Why? To avoid exposing themselves to the multitude of chemicals sprayed on the plants. Why? Because they've seen too many other migrant farm workers die of complications, including but not restricted to cancers, related to chemical exposure. These migrant farm workers don't need studies to tell them the chemicals aren't safe...they've lived the experience with family members, friends and co-workers.

And, I do want to emphasize there are organic products that are so unhealthy and unsafe that I would never, ever use them. Unfortunately, we didn't know all the health risks associated with them in the past. For example lots of folks used rotenone, only to discover it is linked to several health problems, one of which is quite serious. Other organic products, like Pyrethrum and pyrethrum type compounds, cause nerve damage particularly to felines.

As times goes on, there are, in fact, less and less organic solutions I'll use. A nerve agent, for example is still a nerve agent whether it is natural (organic) in nature or synthetic (chemical) in nature.

I try not to use anything that is harmful to any living creature on our place if I can avoid it.

Finally, I think each of us just has to do what we're comfortable with and we have to remember the law of unintended consequences. For years, my dad's tomato crop was the victim of unintended consequences. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, when I was just a kid, my dad had the most beautiful tomato plants in the world every year. His friend, Mr. Camp, who lived about two blocks away also had gorgeous tomato plants. Dad and Mr. Camp also competed (in a friendly way) to produce the first tomato and the biggest tomato and the biggest and best crop.

Every single year their gardens both got hit by red spider mites. Some years they got hit about the third week in June. Sometimes it wasn't until the first or second week in July. What we all knew, though, was that the red spider mites meant the tomato plants were doomed to die. Some years they treated the plants with Sevin. Some years they used a miticide like Kelthane. No matter what they did, no matter what they used, the spider mites multiplied like mad and killed the plants. Do you know why? I didn't know until the late 1980s or early 1990s. Studies have shown that when you spray a tomato plant with Sevin, the population of spider mites INCREASES. I suspect the same thing occurred when they used Kelthane. Why? Because there are good spider mites that kill the red spider mites and help keep them under control. Apparently the pesticides and miticides killed off all the mites, but the bad mites rebounded much faster. So, then you had all the bad mites with no good mites to control them. Who knew?

Nowadays I seldom have spider mites, and when I do, I knock them off the plants with a spray of water and go on with my life. My tomato plants live and produce and we all live happily ever after...or at least the plants live until frost or disease gets them. My dad, by the way, stopped losing his crops to spider mites in the 1990s when I convinced him to give up chemicals and to stop overfeeding them with nitrogen. (Overfeeding nitrogen makes plants more attractive to pests, esp. aphids and spider mites.)

I don't quarrel with anyone's right to garden organically or chemically. I try not to make a religion or anti-religion of either of them. The main philosphy I try to use when gardening is "First, do no harm". It works for me.

Don't let naysayers of any kind steal your joy! You garden for yourself and not for them. OK, sorry for the book I just wrote. I know it is very long and I'll climb down off my soapbox now. And, by the way, over the years I've seen Neil Sperry become less and less likely to automatically suggest a chemical solution and I've seen some Texas A&M scientiest concede that Howard Garrett has been right on a lot of things, and I've seen the D-FW area become VERY organically inclined. Why? Because it works!

Hope you're well!

Dawn

Words of wisdom, for sure. My horses and chickens all contribute to my garden and reap the benefits as well. I had a friend that was gardening the "natural" way and was freaking out trying to find a deterent for weeds. I thought a few weeds was natural!!! It comes easy for some and harder for others I guess. Organic or natural gardening is just letting nature do what it does and you help out some.

jo

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the roundup. So I'm not a chemical free gardener either because like Dawn, I use it on Bermuda and Johnsongrass. And I also use the MG plant mix.

But no longer use even the old "organic" pesticides like rotenone and pyrethrum. There were several other factors involved in my husband developing Parkinson's I'm sure. He's Norwegian and red-green color blind, both genetic factors that have been identified as putting people at risk. Plus he is a diesel mechanic and worked for years in a fume filled shop. But the use of rotenone has been linked to Parkinson's and over the years we both spread a lot of it with hand held dusters or sprinkler cans and no face masks.

One of the things I've learned is that soil pH has a lot to do with which pests or diseases show up. For several years our potatoes had scab. Scab is more prevalent in neutral to alkaline soils. We had put too much wood ash on our garden and allowed the pH to rise too high for good potatoes. We quit the woodash and added oak leaves and sawdust to get it back down and the scab almost disappeared.

Good, I knew Dawn and others would come and set my mind at rest :-). I am very keen on improving my soil, and have taken to pulling up weeds in the grass rather than hiring one of those companies that seem to call me every year so they could come spray for weeds!

I see what you're saying Dawn about both sides. I will keep up with my compost pile, buying organic produce, and trying to make my garden as organic as I can.

Dawn now please tell us what you really think. LOL. You already know I agree 100% with what you said. I've used manure, ect all my life. Many times because it was what I had so was free. I do use a few chemicals. But it seems every year I find something organic or a least more friendly to the environment. Last year it was Garlic Barrier.

Being that weed control was mentioned. I've read a couple of places recently that industrial grade vinegar works extremely well on most weeds. Have been going to do a search on it and haven't yet. Has anyone else heard about it? Or used it? Or searched it and found out any complications? Thanks Jay

Dawn I did a quick search for the vinegar after the above post. The second from the top was Marshall's in Ft. Worth. I'm sure you know them. Looks like they have some nice stuff and good prices.Now will read on it a little more. If I was going to be at the swap would have you pick it up for me. But since they will ship no real problem. Please let me know what you know about them. Jay

I non organic gardening, and I have to admit that sometimes I feel a little "left out" by all the organic gardening folks. But I think at the end of the day it's an "all roads lead to Rome" kind of situation. I think those people where just being jack... and you shouldn't give them another thought.

Hoo boy, this is one of my buttons. That whole "organic" thing... It's cool to do/eat anything organic these days. "Organic" is plastered all over everything. So much so it means nothing.

Um, wait. What was the question? Heh.

Yeah, I'm one of those that uses nothing, organic or not, unless I've no other choice. Last year, I used RoundUp for the first time on some Johnson grass. I also used some spinosad on my cabbages or there wouldn't have been any left. Other than that, I can't remember using anything. Ever. Well, I do use manure and leaves and hay and cardboard -- and I'm sure cardboard isn't "organic" in the NOW sense of the word. I don't use any fertilizers or additives of any sort other than those -- but I'm keeping my options open because who knows what the future brings?

Anyway, don't mind the Holier Than Thou types. Like everyone else already said, there's more than one way to skin a cat. (Just as soon as I start feeling pretty smug about some method of mine, I'm proven completely wrong and put in my place so I try not to do that too much. LOL)

Diane

"Use no chemical before it's time".

I love to be as organic as possible, but sometimes it just doesn't seem possible. Pesticides are a NO-NO in my book and for almost everything, I would rather let the bugs eat it than to eat it myself after it has been sprayed with something. Last year, I tried a fungicide on some of my tomato plants and I couldn't tell the difference. I have lots of different soil additives including a bag of regular non-organic fertilizer in my potting area. I think I have had the same bag for 4 or 5 years. Sometimes I use it when I am mixing up the mixture for my containerized tomatoes because it is slow release and I don't have to add anything else for awhile.

I gave up last year, and used a large quantity of Round-Up to clear a badly overgrown area.

Mostly I try to use a barrier product as much as possible for the things that are really difficult to control, like flea beetles. It is not uncommon to see me (or DH for that matter) walking around the plants with a jar of water with dishwashing detergent in it, flicking the Japanese beetles into it.

Sometimes it is very hard to walk away and let something go. I had commented that I almost never see lady bugs at my house and Dawn said, "Hmmm, you must not have aphids". It was not something I had ever thought about, but she was right. Last year the aphids came in by the thousand and hit my cucumbers. I tried blasting them with water, and that didn't seem to do the trick. In about 4 days, the lady bugs came in and finished them off. I did't save the cukes, but I did watch natural in action. I also learned that I should be on the look out for aphids in the future and take care of the problem early.

A couple of good things come with old age. The most important one is that you can do what you want and not care what anyone else thinks. They just look at you and think, 'Poor thing, she is old, and that's probably the only ways she knows to do it'. Play along with it, and it'll keep them off your back. LOL

Jay,

Marshall Grain Company has been in Fort Worth for decades. They're on the southeastern side of town, east of I-35, just a few miles from downtown in an old neighborhood that has seen better days. Back in the day, that neighborhood had tons and tons of people who had fruit trees, veggie gardens and backyard chickens---all things which are popular again. Marshall Grain Company survived the Fort Worth tornado ten years ago while a similar but smaller feed and seed a couple of miles up the road was all but destroyed.

When I lived in Fort Worth I went there all the time. They had heirloom tomato plants at least as far back as the 1980s when I first started growing heirloom tomatoes. In fact, I bought my first heirloom tomato plants and heirloom tomato seeds there, so I own them a huge debt of gratitude for introducing me to heirlooms. The store is an odd combination of feed and seed store, greenhouse, organic (and chemical) gardening supplies, bird and pet supplies, books and magazines, and wonderfully old-fashioned stuff like horehound candy, old-fashioned malted milk balls that taste like they "used to" and don't any more, and Dr. Bronner's Natural soaps. It is my kind of place and I could spend a whole day in there and be just as happy as a pig in mud. In the spring, they sell chick and other poultry and game birds. If I had my own store, it would be almost exactly like Marshall Grain! They also sell all kinds of animal feed, which is becoming harder and harder to find in some parts of Fort Worth, though still easy to find out in the exurbs.

I have always found their prices reasonable, considering how expensive organic products can be. They don't carry Espoma Tomato-tone but have a great tomato fertilizer from Rabbit Hill Farm.

Nowadays, I'm thrilled to death if I make it down to the store 3 times a year and I miss being able to walk in there and wander aimlessly for hours because when I am down there nowadays I have a 'to do' or 'to visit' list a mile long...you know, Pendery's Spices, Central Market, Redenta's, Mike's Garden Center, Calloways....too many places to go, too little time.

Several years ago they began selling their own line of organic products, and they seem like fine products to me.

I do hate to think of you spending $$$$ on shipping that vinegar...it is so heavy! If you were coming to the swap, you know I'd be happy to pick up some and bring it there to you.

So, what do I know about them? Oodles and oodles of stuff as you can tell, and every organic product I've ever tried, like orange oil, corn gluten meal, molasses, lady bugs and green lacewings, and Nolo Bait for grasshoppers, I found there years before you could find those products any place else.

Although they seem like an old-fashioned kind of place (and I mean that in a good way), they're very cutting edge when it comes to the whole organic gardening movement and always have been. I've never web-ordered and know nothing about how much they charge for shipping or handling or how quickly they ship, but when I have shopped there in person....dozens if not hundreds of times in my lifetime...I have always found their employees to be friendly, knowledgeable, helpful and efficient. They are just like the folks next door who'd do anything for anyone. I recommend them highly.

Diane, You need to write a Diane version of Barbara Mandrell's song "I Was Country (When Country Wasn't Cool" only, of course, "I Was Organic (When Organic Wasn't Cool)", lol.

Don't even get me started on the USA's organic standards as applied to the "Certified Organic" program or I'll be sitting here listing my objections all day. Let's just say they hijacked the organic movement and I'd rather eat 'naturally grown' food purchased from a small grower at a farmer's market or roadside stand than "Certified Organic" stuff from a big grower who is organic in name only, and only then because the certification process was corrupted as it was developed.

OK, I'll shut up now.

Dawn