My experience is that the progeny of organically grown plants are stronger and healthier--Last summer, my husband & I planted 3 types of potatoes from the supermarket--not recommended, but we did it anyway:). 2 were non-organic, the other was organic. The organically grown seed potato jumped out way ahead of the conventional seed potatoes. We used the same organic methods growing all of these. According to Camille Kingsolver (Barbara's daughter) in Animal, Vegetable, Miracle, this is because plants that have to fend for themselves are genetically stronger than plants that are dependent on heavy loads of synthetic chemicals (fertilizers, pesticides) to do the work for them. Thus, the justification for the higher price is a naturally genetically stronger plant. But the choice is yours--couldn't say how many generations of seed saving it would take to build that strength back into the plant, but it's got to happen eventually. You may need to be more vigilant about selecting seed from the more vigorous plants if you decide to go the conventional seed route. I prefer organic seed when I can get it purely for results. Here is a link that might be useful: About Animal, Vegetable Miracle

There actually are some gmo seeds on the market that consumers can buy. According to Fedco ( where I get most my seed) Burpee golden beet is a Gmo? I have been growing that for years not knowing. It's germination and growth rate was slow. I now use detroit golden and golden mangel an heirloom seed. I cannot imagine that using treated seed has a noticable impact on the soil or the plant it produces. It's a religion, like Mac vs Pc. and organic is the pasword these days. I grow my stuff organically because I get free manure and I like what it does to my otherwise marginal soil. I also don't like handling chemicals and spraying them on the food I eat or give away. I use neam oil for aphids and it works ok, nothing for root maggots, just plant a few extra plants for the bugs etc. I have less than an acre in cultivation so managment is fairly easy. I also grow under various types of mulch, a winner all the way from my way of thinking. I had the opportunity to chat with a fellow that travels the world resurecting sick forests with proprietary enzymes he has created. He also tests soil and vegitbles with frequency devices he created in his labs to determine health. A healthy vegitable will sit on your kitchen counter for a long time and dehydrate, an imballanced one will rot fairly fast. It was indicated to me that some of the worst vegitable frequencies come from all chemical fertilized and all organically fertilized gardens and the combination of the two fertilezers produced the best produce, for what is is worth. The debate is likely to go on for some time.

Dschall- In answer to your questions-- Compost is a free input. We make it by hand cutting the rice grass and mixing it with dried rice straw and vegetable kitchen waste. No manure. I was referring to suggestions that involved spending money when I said we had no money for inputs. I apologize if that was unclear. We have a solar panel, sugar, and an aquarium pump. If we applied the finished compost to our 4 acres it would provide almost zero improvement in pH and be washed out during rainy season. Further, the hottest month of the year here is April and we keep the compost tea in the shade, so I think it is probably aerating sufficiently. We teach Soil Science, English, and Systems of Democracy in the classroom 6 hours a day, five days a week. This week in Soil Science we taught the nitrogen cycle and how to mix inputs into compost tea differently to get a finished product that is bacterial or fungal, and which plants to which to apply which type of tea. Scrap wood is plentiful around here, especially bamboo. We do not have a shredder so it is difficult to compost or otherwise grind wood products, however, burning for ash would make the wood more easily applied. I will answer each of your questions and maybe you can explain their relevance to my initial inquiry. How many acres do you have access to? 4 How many acres are in rice paddies? a little over 3 What crops do you grow in the non-rice season? Chinese cabbage, bitter gourd, chiles, yard long bean, many asian eggplants-- however, if we cannot raise the pH signifigantly we will probably switch to crops that grow better in low pH. Does grass (not just bamboo) grow in the area? rice grass Is there anything green growing in the ditches? No, they are waterways. Are there wild or farm animals in the area? If so, what are they? Ducks Was there ever a forest or grassland in the area? Dunno. Maybe 1000 years ago? How many people are being supported by the land? 20 Do they get food from anywhere else? The goal is to be self sufficient. The low pH of the soil last year provided a smaller than necessary veg harvest and we had to raise $$ to buy food that was our intent to produce. Thus this inquiry for answers. Are they vegetarians? They eat whatever is put in front of them. If veg is all we have that's all they eat. They eat duck and duck eggs fairly regularly, as well as snakehead fish and snails that we net from the ditches. That soil test was not particularly good. Make a note for your journal to get a better test next time. --Soil test was free and is the standard test provided by Chiang Mai University. They won't do another free test for 5 years. We were lucky to get that one, as soil testing paid for by the Thai government provided free to Burmese refugees has a complicated political element to it. When these folks return to Burma, many will not have access to electricity to power a pump, IPM strategies must be developed to address their twin pests of monkeys and parrots, and they will NEVER have access to the results of a soil test. So when I say we are teaching organic farming it is in much the same vein that Hawkeye Pierce would teach surgery to a Korean med student, if you get my drift. Who is Buzz Killington? I've been working in the jungle too long to keep up with pop culture. Lazygardens, Nandina-- azolla?? Cool. we have a small pond with water hyacinth which I chop and use in a basket layered with rice straw to germinate mushroom spores. I'll look into azolla. Will the ducks eat it?

I'm not quite sure what is the point of this thread. In this one meta analysis, they reviewed 343 previous studies done, examining and measuring nutritional content of organic vs non organic vegetables. Is that right? Yet, after 343 studies done, they still find very little difference in the nutritional value of both groups. No difference that would actually support recommending one over the other for nutritional content. After 343 studies. That to me is a very large waste of time and money to do that many studies when the first 50 probably told you all you needed to know. I also have to wonder, who was paying for these studies? Is some organization trying to gain support for their point of view with 'scientific studies showâ¦'? At any rate, I haven't expected that organic produce has significantly higher amounts of nutrition over non organic produce. I simply understand that pesticides and fungicides actually are designed to kill bugs and fungus. Why would I want to eat foods that were sprayed with any kind of agent that can kill, even if it is just a small bug? And had them repeatedly applied? And that the soil that they are growing in has had years and years of them being applied? The other reason I choose organic gardening, is because an ecological system clearly exists. Why ignore that rather than try to understand it and work with the system rather than against it? None of these studies address either of those reasons why I choose organic.