I have both and love them. But, if they are not in full sun, they flop. I planted some Blue Fortune in part shade, and some in full sun; the ones in full sun are upright and HUGE, while the ones in part shade, while healthy, have fewer flowers and are floppy. My solution for the ones in part shade is to shear their tops down to half-size. There are still lots of flowers from lower branches, but the plant is less top heavy and can stand on its own.

One of my Russian sages is planted in part shade, and has a spreading, rangy habit. It tends to be straggly. Even in full sun, Russian sage seems to like to "part" in the middle, with the stalks leaning in every direction. You have to give it space for that. It looks open and airy, and the odor it has is reminiscent (to me) of roast lamb! I prefer the fragrance of agastache.

If you have no choice but to plant in less than full sun, agastache will likely be less straggly than Russian sage, but it will flop. Be prepared to top-trim.

Hi Cady and Prairie Moon.
OK -- sounds like my best choice is agastache. Now the challenge will be getting thru the bees to dig one up and move it! Anybody know about dividing them?
Thanks again,
C

My Agastache Blue Fortunes in part sun actually stand better than the one I have in more than part sun (no such thing as full sun here). Go figure. It may be the soil. In the sunnier beds I brought in pure compost and a topsoil/compost mix and built the beds up. Both Agastache and Perovskia prefer more of a poor soil.

For a more compact Perovskia, try a cultivar called 'Little Spires'. It stays more upright and tends to get less rangy even in slightly less than full sun.

Sue

Or go with something a bit tighter like Salvia 'May Night.' And, there's always Lavender. In zone 6 most of the Lavandula intermedias will be quite hardy in the spot you describe.

If your Echinacea is happy, both Agastache and one of the above will extend your season and provide some foliage contrast.

Martie (with just a thought :-)

Hi Martie. Good thots -- but I have popped in Salvia n. carradonna in every blank spot I have except this one (it is flopping like crazy this year too). So, in the interest of a little variety, I am trying to branch out! And, as for lavender, I've got 3 going happily, but whenever I add more, they inevitably die. Very strange, as they are all in a circle around a birdbath....

I agree with Sue that "Little Spires" may be a good perovskia to plant as it's shorter and less likely to flop over.

For dividing agastache, make sure each plant has lots of stems, then cut down the middle (or off an "end"). I would cut back the stalks a bit first, by about a third. If the weather is dry, sunny and windy as it is now in our region, I'd wait until an overcast day, or keep divisions moist and protected with a bit of shade cloth for a week or so. Agastache appears to lose moisture easily, even though it's a sun lover that tolerates drier soils.

Mayalena, if you want something dark blue that won't flop, I've got some nice caryopteris that self-sowed. It blooms later than perovskia - it's in full swing right now. Other than the darker color and the more upright form, it is similar in texture and overall effect to perovskia.

My perovskia does flop, though it's in full sun in a very open position between a lawn and a walkway. I have decided to think of it as "gracefully arching" (thanks, George) and leave it be, though I do occasionally tie it up to keep it from tripping people on the walkway.

If you're interested, I could figure out a way to get you a few of these.

i agree with dtd that caryopteris is a beautiful non-flopping alternative, though likely to be the same height as echinacea in my gardens (and you may appreciate a variety in height). personally, I think perovskia does not give one much bang for their buck, whereas agastache is such a hearty long blooming, bigger blue-impact plant.cady's advice to whack back-is exc. I whack by half all my too-tall leaning-likely stuff(monarda, agastache, eupatorium, heliopsis, perilla,sanguisorba, aconitum,rudibeckia, sedum autumn joy, etc etc) when they approach the height that is my goal. FYI, the Black Adder Agastache I sprang for this summer- is super- larger flower heads than blue fortune.
best,
mindy

Hi Mayalena..

My experience lines up with what Sue said about the soil. I just popped the agastache in unamended soil and it did very well.

I just wanted to mention to you mayalena that I have had trouble with lavender coming back for me too. I have clay soil and they really prefer well drained over the winter. Although I tried a few different varieties, I found that Lavender Lady came back for me when others didn't. I also have added them to a raised bed area this spring, and will let you know if that helps them overwinter. My last resort, would be to transplant them to my raised veggie beds for the winter and then move them out again in the spring.

All tender-loving-carer's cover their ears:

Lavender needs neglect. Benign neglect. Chances are, Mayalena, that if your lavs are dying it's because they're getting too much moisture, or the soil is too rich. If Echinacea is working in a spot, it will probably be good for lavs, too. Sandy, rock, unamended soil is what they love.

I have clay soil, too, Pairiemoon, and have found that throwing in a shovelful of grass clippings (not yet composted) to the hole gives the soil enough drainage without making it too rich.

Another alternative may be a dark Buddleia????? You can keep it trimmed to any height you want.

Martie

I second Martie's advice about lavender. It's a Mediterranean plant that thrives on lean, gritty soils and lots of sun and warmth. To approximate that in our New England climate and soils, we have to be creative. :)

None of my lavenders lived more than 3 years until I let them have what they really wanted -- Tuscany, or at least a pathetic immitation of it. The only lavender I have at this time is a big, happy one in full sun in a pot of almost total sand and gravel with a bit of composted manure and potting mix so a little moisture is retained and there is a little organic material.

Martie, grass clippings in the hole? That is a new one. Thanks for that tip.

Cady, actually, I have recently been dreaming of a gravel garden. The wheels are going trying to figure out how I could make my clay soil over into something approaching mediterranean conditions.[g] I've been thinking of just dumping a 1/2 foot mixture of sand/gravel ontop of the clay, then mulching with pea stone. I doubt that would work, but I am still thinking about it..lol. Regardless, if we have another year like this one, for rainfall, gravel or not, I still don't think I can grow more than a handful of mediterranean plants in pots.

Cady, what do you do with your lavender over the winter. Keep it in it's pot, or dig it in somewhere? That's a good idea by the way. I always wish I could try some of the spanish lavenders and other larger versions. I will have to try one in a pot next year. Thanks for the recipe.

PrairieMoon,
In my opinion, raised beds are the best way to make the right habitat for plants that don't like our natural soil. I have a bunch of them, made from granite cobble blocks from Home Depot, as well as some that were made using rocks from my property (a bumper crop of rocks every time I stick a spade in the ground) against a wall. You excavate out a foot or more of clay soil and replace it with your special blend, which has to be refreshed once a year with new compost but otherwise is carefree.

I use planters and containers for hardy plants (I only use plants that are hardy to at least one zone colder than the local climate).

The lavender I have is a Goodwin Creek variety that is only zone 7 hardy, so is marginal in my 6b garden. I bought it last winter and kept it next to a sunny window, then put it outside this year and refreshed the soil. It will come back in before the frost.

With the hardy L. angustifoliums that will overwinter outside in our climate, I've found it's not enough to add gravel to existing soil; you really do have to remove the soil and totally replace it with that "Mediterranean" soil. I've had luck with my alpines and other dry-loving plants using a soil made from 2 parts bagged topsoil, 1 part coarse/builder's sand, 1 part turkey grit or small gravel, and 1 part compost (veg or manure).

Cady,
Thanks for the ideas. I am sure you are right. I had some plants that were not doing well in the clay...some salvias, and I did just what you suggested in that area where I was determined to grow them and they really did improve. That is a little too much work for the size of the area I was thinking of putting the gravel garden. I will have to mull that over a little longer. Something to think about over the long winter. [g]

Thanks especially for the alpine 'recipe'. I will have to give that a try with some containers next year.

:-)

It's weird, but the one lavender I had that lived for more than 3 years was a volunteer that seeded itself across the driveway in a crack between the pavement and a rock retaining wall. lol

It picked the one place in my garden where there is sandy, well drained soil (the gravel and sand under the paving) and full sun.

Sorry to sound quick ... adding sand to clay makes cement. The grass clipping idea has worked well for me. The grass eventually composts itself and breaks up the clay just enough.

Not surprised about lavs living in a crack. Think of the cliffs of the Med and it's just like home!!

Again, lavs are easy, easy, easy if you don't take care of them :-)

Martie

Martie,
The grass clippings (or other humus-making compost) probably are the best solution for PrairieMoon, since she has a large area to cover. Humus/compost seems to be the only cure for clayey or sandy soil. I prefer removing the soil altogether and replacing it, which is why I decided to go for raised beds. But I wouldn't try it for a big chunk of area.

You sure are right that the best way to get lavs to grow is to ignore and not take care of them. They want to pick their own place, and if you have even one speck of sandy, gravelly soil like in a pavement crack, that's where they'll be happiest, as the "volunteers" have made perfectly clear!.