I haven't used a store bought "ready to go" soil mix in over 15 years. They are mainly a high percentage of peat (crap). I purchase three different commercial products and mix them together.

I pick a morning when the wind is not blowing and mix together 1 bag of Metro Mix 702 to 2 bags of Fine pine composted soil conditioner and then put it in trash cans to keep it dry and weed seed free.

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This makes a good basic mix to grow a number of tropicals I play with. I'll add the third ingredient (Turface MVP) for my special mix that is used for my favorite plants or for plants that are grown specifically to be relocated.

randy

Kirts,

No, you are not the only one who feels this way.

When it comes to potting soil, I have finally begun making my own mix from ingredients which are pretty easy to find in the average big box store like Lowe's or Home Depot, or maybe Wal-Mart, if your Wal-Mart has a half-decent gardening center. I basically use the recipe for Al's Container Mix that I read about on the Container Forum a few years ago, but have adapted it a little to keep it organic. We discussed this recently in a thread about growing tomatoes in containers. I've linked it below in case you want to see Al's recipe and my few minor changes to it.

For seed starting, though, I still buy and use the expensive Pro-Mix or Jiffy-Mix seed starting blend. Yes, it is expensive, but it is worth it. I have virtually no damping off with anything (no matter how hard it is to successfully start from seed) in these two mixes, so feel they are worth the investment. You could make your own seed starting mix from a mixture of compost or peat moss (or a blend of the two) and maybe a little perlite or vermiculate and maybe a very small amount of pine bark fines to help hold moisture.

I don't necessarily think small, local nurseries are closing due to a lack of gardening in general. If you look at statistics, gardening is as popular as ever, or maybe even more so. What IS happening, I think, is that everyone is getting into the habit of buying the same standard mass-produced plants at big box retailers at very cheap prices so they no longer go to full-service nurseries who have higher prices (and understandably so--the smaller nurseries don't sell at the same volume as the big box stores and, thus, can't match their prices). So, many smaller nurseries and even smaller plant wholesalers are being driven out of the business, which is unfortunate.

The very same standardization you see in mass-produced plants is also apparent in mass-produced soil ingredients like peat moss, bagged compost, bagged mushroom compost, etc. AND in bagged mixes. In part, you can blame the current trend on the success of Miracle-Grow potting soil. When Miracle-Grow potting soils first hit the market, they made gardening a "no-brainer" for less experienced or completely inexperienced gardeners. You didn't really have to know much, in general, to garden with Miracle Grow. You brought home purchased bags of MG and purchased transplants, put them into a pot, and had instant success. Of course, MG potting soil became a HUGE seller, so now it is copied by other companies who now put out virtually identical products. Even worse, MG began adding to its' line with formulations aimed at different growing needs....MG for roses, MG for aquatic plants, MG garden soil to add you native soil for veggie growing, etc. And, because organics are more popular than ever, they now have a bagged organic potting mix from MG. Where does it stop?

And, yes, there are some people who pay a landscaper to put in their landscape for them. It is hard to quarrel with the idea of that if they are hiring a true professional who knows how to prepare the soil, make the right selection of varieties for this area, etc. Unfortunately, some people who call themselves landscapers do not have the appropriate degree OR training OR experience. And, yes, some of those people will pay to have a landscape installed and then don't take care of it, probably because they haven't educated themselves about what their yard/landscape needs. Hopefully, somewhere along the way, they will begin to take care of those landscapes and learn how to garden themselves.

As far as your number of flower beds being on the decrease, that is a reality of life in Oklahoma this last decade. I have let three flower beds revert to native plants in the last 3 or 4 years because they became too costly and time-consuming to maintain in the continuing series of droughts. On the other hand, I have been enlarging the remaining beds--concentrating my efforts in fewer locations. I use more native plants, more extremely well-adapted plants, more reseeding annuals, etc. And, yes, like you, I am continually adding more shrubs (and vines and ground covers) because they are more drought-tolerant and easier to maintain. And I simply refuse to plant anything anymore that requires massive soil preparation and maintenance (like azaleas, for example). It just seems smarter to me, with my large landscape, to focus on plants that are well-adapted so they do well with minimal help from me.

I still grow a whole lot of annuals from seed because I don't want my beds to look like everyone else's. It seems the same dozen or two dozen standard bedding plants are sold over and over by the mass retailers and you have to really hunt for something that is different. When you walk into a big box retailer, you see the same plants over and over and over: small-flowered marigolds, sweet alyssum, petunias, wax begonias, annual salvias, zinnias, celosias, dusty miller, pansies, Mexican heather, impatiens, gazania daisies, Gerbera daisies, etc. Is is any wonder that so many people's flower beds look just like everyone else's?

Whatever happened to some of the more unusual plants like Bells of Ireland, balsam, godetia, nasturtiums, cleome, cosmos, larkspur, scabiosa, flax, the tall old-fashioned nictianas or verbascum? How often do you see these in people's flower beds anymore?

In the world of perennials, there still are a lot more choices and that seems to be where the breeding resources are being fully utilized.

As a gardener, I've just had to learn to go my own way and do my own thing IN SPITE of what the stores have and try to sell to us. Is it harder to garden this way? Yes, but I refuse to limit myself only to what is offered in big box stores, including their idea of what potting soil should be. It does take a lot more time, effort and expense to grow so much from seed. And it is time-consuming to mix up my own potting soil blend. But, it works for me.

And, for all of you who still have wonderful nurseries that offer plants that are more unusual and, hence, more special than what we find at mass market retailers here in southern OK, I hope you appreciate what you have there. In our part of the state, it is harder and harder to find anything unique. When I am desperate for plants that are "different", I will drive down to the D-FW metroplex where there still are some amazing nurseries that offer the more unusual plants. Even they, though, seem to be struggling these last couple of years and some of them are closing down or selling out to chains that offer the same-old-thing.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Container Mix Recipe

Dawn,

I've seen Al's soil mix threads over the years. It's a good mix.

Kirts,

As you look into making your own mix, you'll discover there is almost as many mixes as there are people that love to container grow plants. Nothing wrong with finding a mix that sounds intriguing and tweaking it some that makes it better suited to your climate and your cultural practices.

I've specialized in container plants for a long time and have had to tweak mine a time or two over the years as some products have become hard to get.

One thing that is very important to me is having a mix that thoroughly drains as fast as possible. I may have to water more in the heat of the summer, but I don't lose plants from rot during wet cool spells in spring and fall. It's easier to water than to remove excess water. :-)

I agree with Dawn about the demise of greenhouse growers. It's just too hard to make a living selling only bedding plants and trees full time in this day and age of the corner box store. I know too many people that like to one shop for things. Head to the box store for plants, trash bags, light bulbs, new lamp for the living room, new microwave, etc etc.

To be honest I haven't been to a retail greenhouse in at least a year. I'll go there with friends wanting advice on plants to incorporate in their landscape. But never for my self. I have little interest these days in most of the plants they have to offer.

randy

Randy,

I am glad to hear your comments on a well-draining soil mix as it reinforces what I've been doing for a while now. At times (like in the dead of summer), I worry I have put together a mix that drains "too well", but it is so much more important to me that it drain well and not hold excess moisture. So, thanks, for letting me know that I am on the right path.

Dawn

I thought peat moss was a good soil ammendment, I just bought bunch of it for my garden soil, this week.

Where do you get the fine pine soil conditioner?

Is there anything we should avoid adding to the garden soil, it seems like somebody has said cedar chunks or some kind of mulch was bad for the soil.

I was wondering about using some of the fine shredded wood shavings for animal bedding, and tilling that into the garden for composting and better drainage? Sheri

Sheri,

All things being equal, I will choose compost over peat moss any day of the week. Peat moss is essentially dead while compost is alive and teeming with lots of living critters too small to see but which contribute to soil health.

Peat moss is used to break up heavy soil and also to improve water retention. However, peat moss has an odd quality about it.....when it is wet, it holds moisture well. Duh. (Oh, I just know this sounds like a dumb blonde's explanation, and I like to think I am a smart blonde.) HOWEVER, once it gets very dry, water just rolls right off of it and it can be impossibly hard to get dry peat moss wet enough to hold moisture again. (sigh) I know Randy could do abetter job of explaining this than I am. OK, to make it easier to understand (because I don't think I said it very well)....think about those little jiffy peat pellets you buy compressed and have to add water to so that they will expand. They are very, very dry and you have to give them tons and tons of water to get them to soak it up and expand. At that point, then, they are incredibly wet--so wet that I usually let them dry for up to a week and then rewet them only a LITTLE bit before I plant into them. Peat moss, once in the ground, can act the same way. In containers, too, it can get too dry and be hard to re-wet. I hope some part of that made sense.

Then, there is the whole environmental issue of mining peat moss because it is, theoretically, a non-renewable resource. And it has to be transported long distances so there is both the cost of transport and the amount of fossil fuels depleted to transport it.

Lots of people use peat moss and are happy with the way it improves heavy, slow-draining soil. I'm just not certain is it the best choice for that purpose (or other purposes). However, it is hard to produce enough compost in a home compost pile, and bagged compost can be very expensive, so in that sense, peat moss is an OK alternative as long as you are adding manure, pine bark fines and other things to put life into the soil.

Pine bark fines are sold as mulch. You want to purchase a pine bark mulch that says "Pine Bark Fines" or "Finely Shredded" or advertises itself as a stay-in-place mulch (because the ones that stay in place ARE finely shredded).

Some people like to add a chunkier form of bark mulch to their soil. Their argument is that it breaks up the heavy clay more, lasts longer since it takes longer to decompose, holds more moisture and for longer periods, and is easier to find. All of the above is true. The problem is that the decomposing chunks tie up a LOT of nitrogen as they decompose. And, if they are monopolizing the nitrogen, then your plants may have a nitrogen deficiency. It is not the worst problem to have, of course. Since nitrogen deficiency is easy to spot, you can counter the problem by adding extra nitrogen IF your plants show signs of a deficiency.

As far as using the fine shredded wood shavings for animal bedding to the soil, I think it would depend on what they are--cedar? Pine? The problem with them is that they are "fresh" or "green" and have not yet begun decomposing unlike the pine bark fines which are a darker color because they are already decomposing. A LOT of organic gardeners like to purchase 50-lb. bags of rabbit feed (alfalfa is what I think it is) and till it into the soil. It is great to use if you can't find alfalfa meal or soybean meal in your area.

Hope this info helps.

Dawn

And, I forgot to say, sometimes you will find a product in the same area with bagged soils and bagged mulches that is actually labeled "Soil Conditioner". I think it is mostly pine bark fines and some humus that I assume came from the pink bark fines decomposition. It used to be easy to find, but in recent years it has seemed harder to find here in southern OK.

And, I thought of a good analogy for the peat moss issue. Think of a kitchen sponge. When it is wet, it can be sopping wet with water just oozing out of it. When it is dry, though, it can get very dry and be almost as hard as a rock, and a little water just rolls off of it. You have to super-saturate a super-dry sponge to get it to hold water again. Peat moss is just like a kitchen sponge in that sense.

Dawn

Hi Sheri,

Peat moss can be a very good "soil amendment" depending on what you want to grow, but we are talking container growing. That's a different ball of wax.

"I" (just my opinion) think a peat based container soil mix is the world's worst thing to use for growing plants. Scratch that, poured concrete is worse.

Large scale growers use it in exclusively because it is cheap, cheap, cheap, and did I mention cheap? They have in line water/ fertilizer systems that maintain a certain amount of moisture and nutrients 24/7 and under their conditions they produce massive amounts of good quality plants very quickly.

But once that pure peat crap dries completely out, there is nothing but trouble. Peat shrinks and becomes like concrete that nothing will live in. The only way to rehydrate the pot is to completely submerse it for hours.

I've said this same line for many years. Why on earth would you use a product that when you open a brand new bale of it and toss it in water, it's such a great flotation device, one can strap a boat motor to it and pull skiers for days. When bone dry, it repels water.

I'm not sure how many nurseries sell composted fine pine soil conditioner. I buy it from American Plant Products in OKC.

I would look at the ingredients on animal bedding before using. I believe they add things to control smell and other nasty stuff you have to deal with indoors with little varmints. Not sure that would be wise for plants. Probably not very cost effective either.

I am a firm believer in this being "the truth" for container growing under my cultural practices and in my climate. If whatever you are using can be soaking wet and fall apart in your hand after being squeezed tightly in the palm of your hand, you have a great mix. The percentages of organic to inorganic may vary depending on the individuals and what is available, but this is a good starting point. What you use doesn't have to be high tech, it just needs to work. :-)

Case in point. I have made many trips into the Yucatan of Mexico and down to the Belize border for various work trips. On one trip we were about 2 hours drive from electricity and anything you would call populated.

The road, if you want to call it that, was just a dried up limestone path that barely got the job done. We spent the night in a very small village that was just an opening in the jungle. Had one little building that served as a store and had one unit they kept things cool in by way of government supplied solar panels with a bunch of old car batteries to store the electricty in.

Had a close friend that was native Mayan with me to translate as I walked around greeting people. It was afternoon and many women were out in front of their stick houses cooking dinner over fires. One stick house in particular really stuck out.

This woman had the most beautiful hibiscus and bougainvillea I have ever seen in my life. They were nothing like anything I've seen in the states under cultivation now. The plants were growing in an old rusted out cooking pots with leaf litter from the jungle and limestone pebbles from the creek bed road. I wanted so bad to take a photo of them, was afraid it might hamper what we originally came to the village to do.

randy

Dawn do you use this mix for outside containers AND indoor pots?

Tmelrose,

I don't do indoor pots. I have cats. Indoor pots become a problem, or rather, keeping the cats out of the indoor pots becomes a problem. The cats don't bother the outdoor pots.

I would think it would work just as well inside as out, though. Can you think of a reason it wouldn't? Good drainage should be just as important indoors as out, and this mix is designed to give plants the nutrition they need plus good drainage. If there is some reason Al's Mix wouldn't work inside, maybe Randy will see your question and reply. He has much more experience than I do with growing plants in containers.

The mixes that Randy and I described that we use are better than the average potting soil you buy bagged in the stores because they are engineered to give good drainage. In general, most bagged potting soil is too heavy and too thick and drains too slowly, which leads to all sorts of problems. Why can't they sell a good potting mix that drains well? My guess is that they would have to spend a little more per bag to purchase and use good quality materials and "they" don't want to do that. Without fail, too, I have noticed that the cheaper the potting soil, the worse it performs.

Dawn

I thought I posted a follow up last night. Guess I'm losing my mind. If I use as an indoor mix do I still include your extras (bone meal, sandstone, etc) or no? I don't have any kitties but do have a dog that might be interested in the bone meal? I'm ready for the good stuff. I bought a HUGE bag of miracle-gro moisture control potting soil at Sam's last summer and I haven't been impressed.

I always add either chicken manure or steer manure to my potting mixes outside, and sometimes a bit more perlite or sand, depending on the plant (some like really, really good drainage. This year, I did purchase a gallon container of worm castings to use as well. It should last a long time because I only need to use a very small amount on each plants. That should get the microbials going!

Espoma is a great product to use for fertilizing plants. It is organic, except for the nitrogen in it. Wish I could find an organic, high phosphorous fertilizer without nitrogen added, because it is always something like aluminum sulphate. I can add the manures to those and have a nice fertilizer.

Susan

Randy,

I got a good laugh at your explanation of the peat moss. I spread it out over a large area, so hopefully I'll be alright. I'll be sure to avoid it in the containers, for sure. By the grace of god, I didn't pot anything up yet, I was going to use the peat moss, hehe. I added a bale of coco coir last year to the garden, I wonder if is about the same thing, it started out like a block of concrete, and took ALOT of water. That bed took FOREVER to dry out. I wonder if the container soil you use for tropicals would be ok for tomato plants, if I added some tomato tone? It would be alot easier to mix up. Sheri

Dawn,

Thanks for the more in-depth descriptions, it is so hard to figure out what is what, because there are so many different piles of bags, with similiar names. That drives me crazy, I absolutely dread the times that I have to go "attempt" to find ammendments, etc. Not to mention we don't have alot to pick from out here.

I don't have a compost pile, so can you think of the name of any of the compost in a bag? Did you say you Do or Do Not til in your old tomato plants into the garden? I left mine from last year, and am not sure what to do with them now.

Okay, I just have a few more questions about the compost for the tomato plants......

Would pine needles (uncomposted) be good to till in, I thought they may keep the moles out too?

fresh coffee grounds...is there anything that I need to do before I till them in?

I wonder if either one of those ammendments affect the PH balance of the soil?

By the way Dawn, that appears to be "damping off" on the plants from Keith, I see the pinched appearance on some of them. Apparantly, I am going to continue to inflict every disease/pest infestation on my poor plants. I think I have read up on everything twice, I just forget to apply it when spring starts. Sheri

I've got the rabbit pellets to till in, but am still wondering about the pine needles and old tomato plants from last season? Thanks Sheri

Sheri, I use my pine needles as mulch, and not mixed in. In my garden beds, I let the leaves stay for added nutrients and mulch, too.

Susan

Sheri,

I wouldn't till in the pine needles. They are great on the surface of the soil, but they do not break down quickly in the soil so they will tie up your nitrogen for a long, long time. Till in the rabbit pellets. They are terrific.

About the old tomato plants.....in general, it is best to avoid tilling them into the soil. Why? Because any bacterial, viral or systemic diseases they may have had can live in/on the old plants and infect the soil. That can cause major disease problems. However, research has shown that if you compost the plants in a hot pile (a hot pile is one that heats up enough to kill the pathogens in the compost ingredients) and then add them to the soil, the tomato plants grow exceptionally well in soil with the composted tomato plants. So, I always remove my garden debris in the fall, compost it and then add it back to the soil. I don't till it directly in though.

If you have already tilled in the plants before you read this, don't panic. As long as you mulch the plants really well, you probably won't have a problem. Anything that may have been present in the plants will reside in the soil, but it generally would infect the plants (if at all) only through soil splash, and not through the roots. So, a heavy layer of mulch will reduce the chance of soil splash.

And, how long have you had your plants from Keith? Did they have any sign of damping off or sickliness when they arrived? Have you been keeping them too damp, 'cause that will do it, you know. How big are they? I would have thought he would send plants large enough to be past the damping off stage? (sigh) If you happen to have any chamomile tea, you could mist the plants and soil with it to see if it helps. I think it is more of a preventive measure, though, than a cure.

I hope you have a lovely day in the garden. I was out in my garden at 6:45 a.m. and it was 47 degrees, but this should have been our last really cold night, if you believe the 10-day forecast.

If you have any more questions, post them and I'll check back every 2 or 3 hours during the day. (Whenever I come in for a short break.)

Dawn

OK Dawn,

I'm alright then, I didn't till them in. I'll go ahead and start a compost pile, maybe it will be done by the end of summer? I haven't read my Lasagna Gardening yet.

Those plants from Keith were healthy for sure when I got them, and I would say maybe 3 to 4 inches tall. They are much taller now, I have had them for over 1 month, but several do have a pinched look on them, I would say I was keeping them to damp. I didn't start reading on here until last summer, it is really hard to remember all of the important rules. But, I won't make that mistake again! I hope your mom is doing better. Glad to see Susan back too. Sheri

Sheri,

Good. I'm glad you didn't till them in. It probably wouldn't have hurt, but better safe than sorry.

Keeping them too damp is probably the problem, and it is a hard habit to break. We call overfeeding and overwatering "loving your plants to death" (smile). So, love them a little less and let them dry out some and they should be fine.

My mom is doing about the same, thanks for asking. She sees the oncologist again in a few days and maybe we'll know more then.

I agree it is good to have Susan back...we were missing her!

Dawn

I went to Walmart and got one sack each of potting soil (1.19 which looked like sand), a better grade of potting soil (Scott's $1.97 looked like chopped pine bark and very little dirt mixed into it.) then a bag of cow manure ($1.19)

I mixed it all together in a wheel barrow and added that mix on into a flower bed.

I will repeat this again next weekend when I buy some more bags.

Mixing up the bags sure seems to help the soil.
Thank you for the ideas

Kirts,

I bought 6 bags of the Scotts Brand humus and manure, also. Then when I got them home and opened them, realized I probably better add something else, as it mostly chopped up bark, so I added the rabbit pellets. I guess the Scotts will help with the drainage, hopefully! Sheri

Anything organic you add to the soil will only help it.

When I was a kid, my dad always bought bagged "potting soil" (it was the 1960s/1970s and there were not many bagged options back then) and added it to his black clay garden soil. (He also had a compost pile.) I've never forgotten how much it improved the soil and it is one of the reasons I add so much stuff to my red clay.

Dawn

That is what is so odd, now when you buy "potting soil" you never know what your going to find in a bag..

I think it was the year before, with the walmart brand soil, I found a gold mind, soil so nice, then when I went back to buy more, it looked and felt like clay mixed with sand.. I was not happy.

other brands of potting soil" I have also found some good ones and others that feels just like my black dirt.. (hard as a brick when dried, or seems that way to me)

Dawn,
the last time I tired an compost pile, I had everything under the sun in one.. including skunks, possumus, etc.
Plus, no one in my family drinks coffee, and we don't get an newspaper.

with 2 acres of land (most of which is mowing) I would have a lot of grass/weeds clippings.

I do take my grass clippings now, let them dry, then rake them up and put the clippings into the garden as a top layer... then I will turn over (tiller) at the end of the growing season.

I don't think I could make an big enough compost pile to hold all the seasons grass cuttings..
I would just have too much green and not enough browns.

It is too bad that you would not have enough browns.

I don't have trouble with a lot of critters getting in the compost pile any more (used to though) and it probably is because the pile is adjacent to the fenced-in doggy play yard.

Good coir is hard to come by. 98% of the coir purchased in the US is obtained as by-product of the bruch and rope making industry in India and Sri Lanka. To make the fibers tough the husks are soaked in salt water. The salts are left in the coir dust that are packed and sold are alternative to peat. In the past there was no market for this waste and it sat in dump and got rained on. This leached the dust and made it a fine growing medium. However nowadays all the old dumps have been used up amd the new dust is not being given time to have the salt leached out before being shipped. So some product come with high ECs an low pHs.
Pls go to my website at www.densuventures.com and click on the research tab.
Let me know it I may be able of further help to you.
Jake