Isn't bee balm just another name or common name for monarda? Clue me in if I'm wrong!
My MIL likes drama. She isn't happy without it so she creates it herself. I won't be drawn in, but 2 of her children are easily drawn in...my husband being one who is not. I can't tell how many times we've left because of her drama. It's grating. I tried for 23 years and she isn't changing and I don't need nor want that in my life.

loris, thanks for the heads up on Rock Island flowers. I think that is really a big thing when ordering mailorder. Some people aren't doing their homework, they see it SAYS it's native so it must be. Would you be willing to tell us who the site was that didn't email you back? I know when I've been looking for native plants, some places have non-natives mixed in with the native. It gets confusing unless you do your homework. And then sometimes it's still confusing!

terry, you are right on the bee balm, but since i think there are differences is the bee balms and wild bergamot, i call them differently even though both are monarda. wb it s light purple bloom. most people likely picture bee balm as a red or pink.

yes, loris, thank you for forwarning us. to add to that, tripplebrookfarm.com has natives. however, be careful. they have plants from other countries as well listed as native. BUT, for the most part, it looks like those listings also give what country it is native to. still need to be careful. for example, there are so many of the same genus growing elsewhere but different species, ie. trout lilies (not sure of latin name).

Well, whatever it's latin name, I still want some. Did you find it locally or mail order? Close to Bureau County here in good ole ncentral IL? For the record..at our old house up here, I had a blue bee balm....not sure what the color was (blue or more purple?), because we had to move :( Then like I've said before...the lady was confused on what I'd told her to kill off, or pull up...I said gooseneck loosestrife (don't ask) and she thought I meant the beebalm...so there's no bee balm there at all.

I'm going to start paying more attention to places I visit on the web. I hadn't heard of tripplebrookfarm.com...gonna have to check them out also.

Hey fairy, check out nichegardens.com if you haven't already.

My plants should start arriving next week....lol...I can't wait...it's better than Christmas!

I think my husband is getting annoyed....lol...he keeps wanting my attention and I keep typing...lol...

Terry

I've never had a mint julep, but you can make an excellent mint tea from Hedeoma pulegioides. In Indiana the stuff was common on steep slopes near a couple of lakes where I lived. Better even than the true mints (genus Mentha), if you ask me. I've never tried drinking anything made from Monarda, though... the smell at least is hugely variable, some smell like something I might want to drink, others don't smell particularly desirable from a culinary viewpoint.

Patrick Alexander

niche gardens: oooo, oooo! garden art! i jsut opened it up and saw that. now, i will definitely have to browse. i have a metal art hanging bug something or other. h/her name is "mergatroid." very adorable with glass marble eyes.

patrick, thank you for sharing. i would have never thought of that! i keep forgetting, also, that there is a native pennyroyal. i always think of the creeper. it does appear pretty "iffy" on internal use. then again, it isn't a concentrated dose. at your own risk. also, i have never had "oswego tea" myself.

i have a couple of orders for natives pending arrival around the 15th.(yes! yellow star grass and blue cohosh- had to jump on the cohosh when i read info about visits from the "early" bees). it should coincide with vacation. i had planned on redoing my veggie garden, but i realize now it will be too early for that. i have enough of others to move anyway. oh yeah, terry. i forgot about answering your question on where my bergamot came from. it was another one of those trails at work. it is very abundant here, so i figured my garden would be a better place than the tire rut. would you like me to send you some seeds if they didn't all fall to my ground? there may only be a few b/c i only had 2 blooms this year. not enough sun and being moved from the other spot i had it in. also, just like cultivated bee balms, it is very prone to downy mildew.

Well, hmmm...since no ones had a mint julep, maybe we could make an alcohol free grasshopper? Using perhaps Patricks advise? We can just pretend "drunk"...lol...

I have some garden art too fairy. When you were describing your bug, it reminds me of my spider. With marble eyes and all...mine doesn't hang, it sits on a copper pole that you stick in the ground. And yes, I'd be interested in some seed! I love the picture in the link you provided. I've never heard of yellow star grass, blue eyed (now I'm questioning the name) grass yes. I need some...maybe I can go to my old house and dig up some? Wonder if she'd let me dig up my viburnams....lol...probably too much to ask?

For those of you have you have alot of native flowers, what all do you have?

I keep forgetting to ask anyone....it seems everytime I come to this site, be it the same day or the next, I always have to log in every time. I've got it checked to remember my user name and password but it doesn't obviously...and it's done this on my last 3 computers, so I'm thinking not my computer....anyone?

Terry

oooooo, i love edible grasshoppers! the ice cream is the best part :) non-alc even better. oh great, now i am picturing an ice cream scoop with grasshoppers sprinkled on top!

i have noticed a few glitches here this last couple of weeks. "done with error on page"; bottom of page not loading and you have to click "search" at the top; i used to be able to type, scroll up, open a link, then hit the back button on the window with my text still there. now, it erases it. that really burned my hide! then again, i get aggravated easily which is why gardening is soooo important to me. think about it: taking you aggressions out on a weed. i mean, pulling a weed- that really is a bit aggressive :) oh, lets not forget the maniacal laughter heard coming from my backyard late at night every time i squirt an earwig... neighbors have chains on their door and bars on their windows. just kidding,, really (not so sure about me now, are you?). i do tend to grumble at the lttle suckers under my breath, though.

i think i would just adore your spider, terry. mergatroid is also lacquered. natural copper in some places adn greenish tealblue or red in others. eyes are blue, like mine. quite a long "beak" also. so, with that resemblance to a mosquito, i now have it hanging from my porch light. it used to have an 18" copper stake to hang by. you know i misplaced that when hibernation came due!

as for my natives, which i am still working on, here goes. unfortuately, i don't have enough to trade! also, i am guessing from my field guide on most of my stuff. i can't guarantee i am right, obviously:

* previously mentioned Monarda fistulosa (as opposed to Monarda didyma, http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=plant_profile.cgi&symbol=MODI
) 1. echinacea purpurea, actually, seed from a magnus, which likely is reverted to native. ?

2. died when i moved it, but i still have some old seed-Ratibida pinnata , grey headed coneflower. to demonstrate confusion with common name, this also is referred to as yellow prairie coneflower.
http://www.lib.ksu.edu/wildflower/grayhead.html

3. from a seed swap- Ratibida columnaris, the western common name is yellow prairie coneflower. http://www.wildflowerinformation.org/Wildflower.asp?ID=63 ps on this link- i initially liked it, but when it list chicory as a wildflower, not being native, be warned as i warn myself. oops, i just saw where "indigineous to europe" was advised. sorry. i saw this on "catchfly" which is growing in one of my beds. this seed sprouted from a freebie wildflower seed pack." i have since learned different.

4. dutchman's breeches, Dicentra cucullaria
http://www.ct-botanical-society.org/galleries/dicentracucu.html

5. jacob's ladder, i am finding all kinds on my search so ihave no clue which i have! here is a comparison photo. it didn't come from anothr state as far as i know, if so, decades past. Polemonium reptans? ok, i didn't post a pic link for this one. i like photos of the bloom, but it just drives me nuts without the foliage visible! i need to see foliage or i misidentify!!!!!

6. toadshade (my preferred common name, wonder why?), Trillium sessile
http://www.daviessaudubon.org/toad_trillium.htm

7. spring beauty: holy cow, which one!-http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=plant_profile.cgi&symbol=TROH....illinois sites list Claytonia virginica, mine are more white than these and slightly striped in pink, http://www.vnps.org/claytonia.html

8. rec'c on trade- sharp-lobed hepatica,Hepatica acutiloba, bloom color seems to vary so i can't wait to see it! http://chicagowildernessmag.org/issues/spring2002/hepatica.html

9. rec'd on trade, dormant, we will see if it survived me- bloodroot,Sanguinaria canadensis, correct me if i am wrong, but i believe this is on illinois threatened and endangered list. http://2bnthewild.com/plants/H261.htm

10. same as above on source and dormancy, red trillium,guessing here: Trillium erectum,
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=plant_profile.cgi&symbol=TRER3

11. optunia, prickly pear, unsure of which one but an illinois native all the same

12. cimifuga racemosa, unsure, purchased at a nursery 3-4 years ago, my bloom spike arches, one spike per plant, so i probably have a cultivar. http://www.ct-botanical-society.org/galleries/cimicifugarace.html

13. spiderwort, i used to think it was virginiana, Tradescantia ohiensis
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=plant_profile.cgi&symbol=TROH

14. as yet, unid'd fern

15. cutleaf toothwort- was in a wildflower packet, didn't come back. species?
http://www.lima.ohio-state.edu/wildflowers/cutleaf.html

16. virginia bluebells, Mertensia virginica. btw, i also saw a naturally occuring white bloomed one in the woods at work!(not just an old flower, it was white)
http://www.grownative.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=plants.plantDetail&plant_id=143

17. apache plume, not an illinois native and it shows, poor thing! Fallugia paradoxa
http://www.highcountrygardens.com/51450.html

18. blue-eyed grass,not sure which on i have. there is both narrow-leaved-Sisyrinchium angustifolium, and praire-Sisyrinchium campestre -listed for illinois. maybe more!
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=plant_profile.cgi&symbol=SIAN3
http://www.missouriplants.com/Bluealt/Sisyrinchium_campestre_page.html

19. this was new this spring, hope to see it again: rue anemone,Anemonella thalictroides (?), http://www.possibilityplace.com/Perennial/detail.asp_Q_CatID_E_3_A_SubCatID_E_5_A_ProductID_E_25#
pending arrival and survival:
1. Hypoxis hirsuta - Yellow Star Grass
https://www.prairiemoon.com/store/template/product_detail.php?SID=68f486dc133cd9b042dc9102e66bc92b&IID=1077

2. Geum triflorum - Prairie Smoke
https://www.prairiemoon.com/store/template/product_detail.php?SID=68f486dc133cd9b042dc9102e66bc92b&IID=1071

3. Filipendula rubra - Queen of the Prairie
https://www.prairiemoon.com/store/template/product_detail.php?SID=68f486dc133cd9b042dc9102e66bc92b&IID=1068

4. Caulophyllum thalictroides - Blue Cohosh
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=plant_profile.cgi&symbol=CATH2

5. Corydalis sempervirens / Pale Corydalis
http://www.sunlightgardens.com/pages/1337.html
http://www.rook.org/earl/bwca/nature/herbs/corydalis.html

6. Dicentra eximia / Wild Bleeding Heart
http://www.sunlightgardens.com/pages/1074.html

7. Dicentra eximia 'alba' / White Wild Bleeding Heart
http://www.sunlightgardens.com/pages/1075.html

8. Echinacea tennesseensis / Tennessee Coneflower
http://www.sunlightgardens.com/pages/1087.html

9. Lilium philadelphicum / Wood Lily
http://www.sunlightgardens.com/pages/1376.html
i want canada lily too, i must have been trying to behave.

10. Spigelia marilandica / Indian Pink great, i see it is listed as zone 6!
http://www.sunlightgardens.com/pages/1208.html

terry, how far are you from monee? http://www.possibilityplace.com/About/

also, sunlight gardens has echinacea pallida that you are looking for. i did find maybe 10 seeds today (fistulosa)! may still be good. i will send them to you if you email me your address using the link on my homepage!. since there are so few and questionable, i will mail at my expense.

wow, that was time consuming! didn't need to do the links, but i tend to make things harder than necessary! i am sure i forgot some, too.

FTM-- thoughts on a few of your plants...

The only native Polemonium in Illinois is Polemonium reptans; so if yours is native, that's what it'd have to be. FWIW, here's a slightly blurry picture including foliage of Polemonium reptans in southern Indiana:

http://boechera.nmsu.edu/~paalexan/inplants2/pages/Polemon_rept_4-2204_5529.htm

With spring beauty, likewise there is only one native species in Illinois, Claytonia virginica. Flower color is very variable, from pure white, to white with pink lines, to pure pink. Flower color is related to resistance to a rust fungus, but I don't recall the whole story offhand.

When it comes to Opuntia, there are three native in Illinois but the one you'd be most likely to see is Opuntia humifusa... of the other two, one (Opuntia fragilis, which I've seen here in New Mexico) has more cylindrical joints rather than the flat pads of the prickly pears; I'm not sure how the other (Opuntia macrorhiza) is distinguished.

On toothwort... all the species that were in Dentaria are now in Cardamine. In Illinois there are three Cardamines that used to be in Dentaria: Cardamine concatenata (was Dentaria laciniata), Cardamine diphylla (was Dentaria diphylla), and Cardamine heterophylla (was Dentaria heterophylla; USDA lists it as Cardamine angustata, though I haven't seen it under that name elsewhere). Cardamine diphylla doesn't have any leaves with the narrow, highly dissected segments like the picture you link. Cardamine heterophylla has a couple of lower leaves that are wide and with three large toothed leaflets and a couple of narrowly dissected upper leaves, and Cardamine concatenata has just the narrowly dissected upper leaves... Cardamine concatenata is also the most common one in southern Indiana, but I don't know about Illinois...

Post pictures of the fern and I could probably tell you what that is...

Patrick Alexander

thank you SO MUCH! patrick. first, i would say, off hand, that Cardamine concatenata sounds most like what i see around here. if and when i get a photo of the fern, i hope you find my post! my camera can only be rated as "starter" quality, so the pics won't be good. it will also take me until next spring, b/c i wait until my memory card is full or close. i have a card reader, but i can't install it on the cpu i use. also, i just love "miscellaneous" information! (color related to resitance to rust). i use the term miscellaneous but not in a way to discount its importance.
finally (though probably not, b/c you have me so excited to learn all of these bits), thanks for the tip on Opuntia fragilis! i don't think that is what i have, but it is listed as endangered on the threatened/endangered list for illinois. i would just die if i had it and killed it. "macrorhiza" sounds like it would have a larger rhizomatic (is that a word?) structure than the others. sometimes, there is one little bit of info that I CAN understand. for example, i recently learned that oriental bittersweet is a bit thorny. now there is an obvious trait i can pick out! berries along stem just doesn't do it for me, unless i see both next to each other IN PERSON.

i have got to save this thread as a file!

terry, look what i found:

terry, i believe this is in will county. i like it for the pictures and names!

Patrick, How do you know all this??!! Can you come here for a little while and teach me all this? I am horrible at identifing plants. Or trees, or shrubs...lol...Ya know how ones brain is only so big and store only so much info, then it has to "purge" out some stuff in order to learn more. I'm afraid if I "purged" my brain, I'd no longer know my name. I just saw a smallish sunflower in the ditch on my parents lane. I think I'll get a picture and you can id it for me. I'm probably the stereotypical girl that makes reference to plants or car noises...with a chunk, bunk, belump...or it's this little purple flower...foliage? or I didn't notice that except it was green....

fairy, the more you talk (or write), I think you're talking about me :) And my eyes are blue also...lol...mergatroid sounds like my spider, with the exception that mines a spider. On the USDA site you provided with some of the plants, when I click on them, it's not in this county. There were 2 that were actually found here. I know 1 was the cohash, but I can't remember the other 1 :) I can't figure out where Monee is. I think it's way north of Chicago? A map would be nice...
I've got the TN coneflower...lol...everyone keeps asking me why I have to have THAT one when I didn't like TN...it's a reminder of the time when I wasn't "home". OT..do you know the song by Jim Croce "New York Ain't My Home"? I would sing that at the top of my lungs..."TN Ain't My Home"...I have never been so homesick in all my life...:(
I followed the link for the threatened species...the bald eagle and a boltonia. The boltonia is along the IL river...I don't think it would suvive at someones house, unless they watered it with muddy stinky water...ick.

I was typing and had another email....from here....fairy you'll never believe where my girlfriend lives...lol....

Terry

"fairy, the more you talk (or write), I think you're talking about me"----terry, i should say the same! i almost asked patrick the same thing also. AND, if that description of yourself didn't have me rolling, and unfortunately, sounding familiar...such creativity you have!

crete/monee: it is north from kankakee up I-57. i couldn't tell you from where i am. south of joliet, so I-80 to I-57...you would do better with mapquest than with me and my memory :) i jsut remember passing when going to "the mall" which, btw, i can't even remember which one. it isn't joliet...right off I-57. actually, i don't even know if it is still there. but, we are talking natives here aren't we. a mall is NOT a native :)

"some of the plants, when I click on them, it's not in this county."---i am not quite as an***, oops, pecu***, oops, particular. :)

ftm, a.k.a. porky pig

FTM-- you're welcome! Yeah, I'd expect Cardamine concatenata to be the main one of those guys in Illinois, too. I hadn't realized Opuntia fragilis was on the threatened/endangered list in Illinois... it's common here in New Mexico, doesn't occur at all back in Indiana. From the name of it, yeah, I'd assume macrorhiza has a nice big rhizome (rhizomatous being the usualy adjectival form, though rhizomatic gets the job dones just as well), but I've never seen it.

Terry-- well, I'm a graduate student in botany... actually am teaching the lab section of a plant taxonomy class this semester. Apart from having a lot of experience with plants, though, the amount you can look up online is pretty incredible. For instance, plants.usda.gov will tell you state-level distributions for anything in the US, and has some of the older synonymous species names listed, too. Some states now have online herbarium websites (Arizona's is at http://seinet.asu.edu/collections/selection.jsp?cat=plantae for instance)that let you search what they've had collected where that are very useful, too. How useful that is depends a lot on how well-represented your area is in the herbariums, but it'll usually give a good idea of within-state distributions and often tell you something about habitat, too. There are also a bunch of web pages coming up with pictures of the plants of an area. www.missouriplants.com is excellent, for instance. I've also got pictures of Indiana plants through my website (boechera.nmsu.edu/~paalexan), but the interface on my Indiana stuff is still kind of a mess...

Patrick Alexander

Terry, it was Rock Island Wildflowers that didnt really respond back. What they ended up doing was send me a hardcopy catalog.

I wont list all the native flowers I have, but I will mention Ive really been enjoying Lobelia cardinalis (red cardinal flower) and L. siphilitica (blue cardinal flower). They're both quite showy and yesterday I saw a hummingbird in my yard for the first time in 10 years at the red cardinal flower.

ftm, thanks for the link to Tripple Brook Farm. They have some interesting plants, and it's especially useful since I like ordering from places relatively close to NJ, especially if the climate's not warmer than mine.

spmimi, since you mentioned you drive out to the sales at Garden in the Woods, you might also be interested in the sale coming up very soon at Bowman's Hill Wildflower Preserve which is in New Hope PA. It had been recommended to me as a place to try by somebody on one of the GardenWeb forums. Ive never gone, but was interested enough that I had entered the dates into my calendar. I may make it this time, but not sure.

HUH??? Malls aren't native??? Oh no...my day is ruined :)

I only go as far as I-55..do I go even further up I-80 to get to 57?

AND, I was so tired last night that I forgot to thank you for all the work you put into giving me the names and links to all your plants! Thank you!! I notice alot of them look to be really shade loving plants? Yes? Oh and porky? I'm not that particlar either, it was just an observation. According to that website and one for butterflies, this county is pretty much barren with no wildlife to speak of....:)

Patrick, you can come here and teach botony. I'm sure fairy and I would make excellent students! You can look up plants online, for sure, its what I'm looking at or for that gets me confused. And then to try and figure out the male and female parts? Come on...lol...I won't say it! :)
The plants USDA site, you have to know the name of plants to see if it's in your area, right? Or is there something else I can click on to just pull up what all is in my county or surrounding counties? Have you moved to New Mexico? Or just teaching for a year there? I know, none of my business :)

Terry

Sorry loris, I must have been typing before your response was there. Or in my email...

I don't like that they (Rock Island) did that. To me, it's enough to just stay away from them. If they can't answer your question, what else are they hiding? Course, if they are getting the plants from the wild, that's probably enough right there! Did the hard copy answer your question?

I had the cardinal flower at our other house in IL, but it didn't do very good at all, and died during the season. I keep seeing it can take full sun, and this one was in full sun. So I don't know. They are pretty. I think I'll try one again...and they have a blue one also? Speaking of hummingbirds....I saw the first one in this yard day before yesterday. And of all things, it was at the purple loosestrife...yet another reason I haven't yanked that darn thing out yet :)

Terry

"Patrick, you can come here and teach botony. I'm sure fairy and I would make excellent students! You can look up plants online, for sure, its what I'm looking at or for that gets me confused. And then to try and figure out the male and female parts? Come on...lol...I won't say it! :)"

Yeah, that's where a botany course comes in handy... I'd go up there, but, well, you guys have winters. :)

FWIW, the Field Museum in Chicago offers a couple of course in local botany for the general public; apart from wandering around their website (http://www.lactarius.com/courses/) a little bit, though I don't know anything about them.
"The plants USDA site, you have to know the name of plants to see if it's in your area, right? Or is there something else I can click on to just pull up what all is in my county or surrounding counties?"

The USDA site won't tell you anything at the county level, and you have to have at least some idea of the name, unfortunately. Some of the herbarium websites will give you a list of stuff recorded from your county, but the only states I know of with that kind of site online are in the southwest.

"Have you moved to New Mexico? Or just teaching for a year there? I know, none of my business :)"

Well, I was born in Bloomington, IN, and went to IU for my undergrad degree. Now I'm pursuing a PhD at NMSU; moved here last year, probably be here another 4 or 5 years... after that, who knows. I'd go back to the midwest if it weren't for the weather... too humid in the summer, too cold in the winter, and spring & fall seem to only make up a month between them!

Patrick Alexander

Why Patrick! You chicken! What is life without winter? That was the biggest thing for me down in TN (just north of Chatty). We got one dusting the whole time..17 months. Add to that, I'd never lived anywhere but Bureau County USA. I'm just a sentimental fool...lol...Have you ever been in the SouthEast? You wanna talk humid...Great for my hair, but that was about it :) Think of all the fun things to do, skating, sledding...join the Polar Bear club and go swimming in the freezing water..lol...

Wasn't it the USDA site I went to? You scroll down and see a map, then click on your state, then your county? I thought it was them...have to check again.

Chicago is a little too far for me to go take some classes, but I'll check out the website. I'm telling you though, if I learn how to tell the difference between all these plants, I'll forget my name...

How do you remember it all? And what is "herbarium"?

Terry

loris, you are welcome! i am finding all kinds of nurseries over the net. i have to restrain myself on requesting catalogs! i am one of those who like to peruse every one of them during late night "foragings" while creating wishlists. i really am trying to cut back on "paper" stuff, but it is so much easier for me. oh, but this has opened a whole new world! L. cardinalis has been on my want list for a long time. i just seem to grab the woodland plants first. i have just the spot, if i ever get it finished!

patrick, sometimes i fee like i need a graduate course just to read the usda sites. hey, i am dense! i will eventually take the time to figure it out, WHEN i force myself to stop rushing through everything. i think it is cool that you keep indiana of the cornbelt with you there in new mexico!

terry, "I only go as far as I-55..do I go even further up I-80 to get to 57? "--- i love it, you are just to much like my brain! i would say you would go further "across" I-80, meaning east, to get to I-57. seriusly though, don't rely on me, use mapquest. oh, and terry, while we are on mapquest, when you are thinking of rock island, are you thinking of the one in tennessee or illinois? just for more confusion :)

i was rather disappointed when i checked the links on some of those i posted with my plants. that was a waste. i thought it would load right to the pic since it had its own "address." sorry about that. and yes, shade loving. as i slipped earlier (not in doo or on wet rock this time) i tend to gravitate toward woodlands. good thing, too, since i have few spots in full sun and not much yard to work with.

"too humid in the summer, too cold in the winter, and spring & fall seem to only make up a month between them!"---here, here!!! but i will take the cold part over high summer with the humidity any day! i keep trying to get dh to move to minnesota. i can't even believe it myself as i get cold easy. but, north near canada- no poison ivy!!! when i was there and they were complaining about the humidity, i couldn't believe my ears. i believe i missed the horrible black fly session, though. AND, the best part, i would feel perfectly at home to get a "canadian eskimo dog"- actual breed. i would feel horrible having one in our weather. also, i spent 3 days in georgia may 2004. nope, no thanks. uugh! it wasn't even summer yet! it isn't like i can live in a tank top and shorts, my preferred attire.

my college bio 2 course mainly focused on plants. i could not pay attention being totally bored with all the particulars. that is why i have a problem now. stamen,pistil- whatever. i have since developed my gardening tastes, though, so it would be different. focus, ftm, focus.

for those in illinois: http://raingarden.il.gov/initiative.htm

and:

fairy, If I go across 80, won't I be in the wrong lane? :)
When I first saw Rock Island mentioned here, yea, I though Rock Island IL. Then when she said in TN, I remembered driving up 24 (I think!) and seeing a sign that said Rock Island. Can't remember if it was a town or what though. Are you rural? with so much shade, just wondering :) lol....

People talk about stamens and pistils and I think of the song from Grease II.....:) showing my age....lol...

Terry, I looked for the information on where their flowers came from in the hardcopy catalog, but couldnt find it there either.

Dont know if itll help, but if you go to the middle of the page below, you can see what is native by state or by Canadian province. I didnt realize, but it seems to include trees and shrubs as well as wildflowers. Its best suited for browsing sequentially and it doesnt give the pictures until you click, but its still one of the best solutions Ive found so far when I want to know all the plants of a genus that are native to here.

http://www.wildflower2.org/NPIN/Plants/plant.html

Below I put a page for Connecticut wildflowers, but this thread is making me realize Illinois has many more natives in common with the east coast than I would have thought. You can browse by flower color, common or scientific name. In order to see the pictures youll need to click, and in this case even page down usually, but I think their descriptions and especially their pictures are extremely clear.

I just checked William Culinas book on wildflowers, and he lists cardinal flower as needing wet to moist soil. If yours wasnt, maybe that was the problem.

thank you loris! What a great link. I thought IL had alot of natives in common with the east coast also. Not really sure why...I have Culina's book on woody plants, and I noticed in it that alot of stuff in the east is also found here. He's got one on wildflowers also?

I received an email from a nursery about 1/2 hour away. They're having a sale! I clicked on their wildflower section and see what I think are more hybrids than just the actual species. For instance, with little bluestem, Schizachyrium scoparium, they have Blaze' and 'The Blues'. Would the native bluestem just be schizachyrium scoparium? I'm getting confused...lol...I think I'll email them and tell them to separate plants that are native. Or list them as such. Does anyone know this plant, Geum triflorum, Prairie Smoke? And this plant is in there, Phlox glaberrima 'Morris Berd'. I don't believe it's a native, is it? Also called smooth phlox. O.k. wait. I just looked and phlox glaberrima is native, but the variety Morris Berd is not. Oh boy, I got some homework to do!

Terry

"If I go across 80, won't I be in the wrong lane? "-- oh, you are quick! lol!
i wish i was rural! maybe why i want woodland plants- a little piece of woods in "the city." nope, just a 50's era subdivision loaded with silver maples! if it isn't our tree shading things, it is the neighbors.

thanks for the links, loris!
terry, anything is quotes is a culitvar (right?variety?). so, it has been bred as a sport off the native. there have been natural occurences also, for instance, the white virginia bluebells i found in the woods.

"I'll email them and tell them to separate plants that are native"-- easy! you'll fall victim to reckless eyeballing!Geum triflorum, Prairie Smoke is on my list of future arrivals (this month!!!). it is a native, http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=plant_profile.cgi&symbol=GETR

Well I would, wouldn't I fairy?

Silver maples...no comment...did I say I took out a quaking aspen? Who in their right mind, on a 64 x 130 lot, would plant such a tree? *^&%&*$%

I did email them. They can roll their eyes all they want. I also told them that I have always loved coming to their establishment. But going all native leaves me not coming there and not spending my money. Hopefully, the name is reconized and they remember the $$$$$$$$$ I've spent there! So I can at least go and get that. I also saw rudbeckia Triloba, ratibida tabernaemontana, eupatorium hyssopifolium. Any of those sound good? They didn't have anything in quotes. I want the species, right? Is that the correct word? And I said they have "hybrids". Is that the correct word? lol...I'm Vinny Barberino and "I'm so confused!"

Fairy, where'd ya say you live? I'm gonna hang in your neighborhood and watch for the UPS guy...lol...

Terry

well, i WAS quitting for the day/night.

see link for usda below for Eupatorium hyssopifolium. it appears that illinois "bonesets" are E. perfoliatum and E. sessilifolium. there are varieties here, also. so, i guess what you don't want, terry, are cultivars. now, i wonder which one grows here. i see it, just not sure which one.

patrick, oh patrick...?

you know, i was tempted... just for kicks, to plant a giant redwood :) and be warned, i have a killer attack toad! :)

Boneset--the name's mostly used for Eupatorium perfoliatum, but sometimes gets stuck onto other Eupatoriums that don't really have a common name, usually with some modifier stuck on the front ("tall boneset" = Eupatorium altissimum; "round-leaved boneset" = Eupatorium rotundifolium, &c.). Generally, once you get out of plants that are commonly talked about, the common names you see listed were likely as not made up by a botanist because he had a "common name" field in some document and had to put something in it.

Patrick Alexander

I'm pretty much an EXOTIC plant gardener. I've got a few 'natives' (meaning a couple of things that grow in the county) but that's it. My yard is an artificial environment. I don't get much water and the natives that grow on the hillside above me are a fire hazard in summer and the natives that use to grow in the canyon below me are no longer there because the property developer went bankrupt and just left a street and cement trough surrounding it and some artificial stacking block retaining walls.

Actually I'm probably the ONLY person in the immediate neighborhood who gardens so I'm about the only one with hummingbirds, hawks, butterflies, and yes even foxes (I had a fox family in the yard last winter).

I've tried to seed some California poppies that are native a couple of hundred miles up north, to no avail here...not enough water. Most of the exotics do great. They look fine in the summer and I don't have to water much.

The biggest problem I see on some of these gardening sites is that some particularly zealous types get carried away and can be a huge turnoff. Besides, what exactly does constitute 'native'?

I got a couple of different local yuccass, dudleyas, and a nice big clump of Mataliija poppy but that's about it as far as natives are concerned. I've tried Salvia clevelandii in the past but it just got woody and ugly and would die every time I cut them back to encourage new growth.

Just my opinion.

-Ron-

Thanks Ron for shedding some light on why one would prefer to grow exotics. I agree that xeriscaping is preferred over fire prone native vegetation. Also, it seems you made a good choice in selecting plant material that attracts wildlife as many cultivated species lack this desirable dimension. But don't be harsh on the zealots, we need to promote more native use in our landscapes because it's necessary to turn the tide. We are up against a huge giant, as most cultivation now-a-days is with either non-natives or native cultivars which have been bred to meet a certain criteria at the expense of some less desirable ideals. As you may know, natives usually require less use of fossil fuels, water and chemicals. Lushly planted native gardens trap moisture by means of slowing down rainwater runoff and evaporation. Consequently, protecting our waters from pollutants, enhancing moisture reserves for vegetative use, and alleviating flooding downstream. Finally, although your yard attracts wildlife, it's simply incomparable to that of a well-designed native garden. As a native landscape enthusiast, I would encourage someone in your situation to include as much native vegetation as is practical and safe for your particular situation.

Natives for me are plants that grew in an specified area pre-European settlement. Often times, it is difficult to determine what grew in any given natural environment, so one has to make an educated assessment.

I don't understand it, but there are posts that are missing.

*The biggest problem I see on some of these gardening sites is that some particularly zealous types get carried away and can be a huge turnoff*

Ron, this is a native plants forum. You will get zealous people. I'm like theresa, I'm a native enthusiast. I'm not zealous about only native, I'm not a purist who believes only natives should be planted. Plant what you like.

Artificial sounds like plastic grass and plastic flowers. ☺ If you're interested, this link describes what "native" means.

I grow many "natives" but they are mostly cultivars of the species. Still, I figure escapees will likely revert to something close to the original form over time. I tell people I use natives because my lot is very hilly and I like stuff that is low maintenance, and I'm near a large undeveloped area and don't want exotics taking over.

Still, even when we plant natives we impact the environment. Coneflower IS native to PA, but it's a prairie species and rare here. Maples have taken over from oaks as the primary species in mature forests because of fire suppression, and heavy planting of maples in urban settings is also believed to have played a role.

The terms "native" and "non-native/exotic" have absolutely NO biological meaning whatsoever. Organisms are constantly moving around this planet, always have, always will.

Kangaroos are not native to Australia?

I'll bite. Who said that and when? This is an old thread....☺

Well, if the term native has no biological meaning than nothing can be native to anywhere. :)

Just pointing out that certain words DO have meaning in the right context.

Try again. Marsupials evolved in North America, as is shown by the fossil record. Marsupials began to migrate to Australia and New Zealand from North America in the late Cretaceous or early Tertiary period. The route of migration crossed Antarctica and into Australia. As Australia broke off from Antarctica and moved northwards, its isolation from other landmasses was complete and the independent evolution of marsupials in Australia and New Zealand began.

And cyanobacteria evolved in the ocean. The point is that Kangaroos are endemic to Australia regardless of the origins of their ancestors. Same applies to the silverswords of Hawaii or the Cacti of the New World. When starlings by chance give rise to a new species I will accept that new species as native to North America.

Good thing that humans were not around in the Tertiary, those marsupials likely would have been killed off by the invasive species kooks, thus no kangaroos. How did those silverswords get to Hawai'i? How did anything get to those islands? None of the flora or fauna of Hawai'i is "native", it ALL came from elsewhere. Endemism is but an accident of geology and evolutionary history. Species do not belong to some particular area of this planet, they move, they evolve, they radiate, they speciate and often go extinct.

The starlings don't give a damn if you accept them as belonging here or not. They will continue (I hope) to occupy whatever part(s) of this planet that suits them.

Most ecologist seem to suffer a profound ignorance concerning the history of life on this planet. The only constant in nature is change. Why is it so difficult to understand that every square inch of this planet has changed, is changing, and will continue to change regardless of what we do or think. Stop worrying about starlings and enjoy your very brief time on this wonderful planet.

*I think I'm gonna find some kangaroos to let loose, and return them to their homeland; North America.
**Camels too.

You may have trouble obtaining permits.

"The starlings don't give a damn if you accept them as belonging here or not. They will continue (I hope) to occupy whatever part(s) of this planet that suits them."

I wish they would not. The point is not whether the starlings give a damn or whether "worrying" about their presence detracts from my enjoyment of the planet. The reality is that I prefer and value the species as well as the diversity that they have displaced. Starlings in the millions or twenty species of songbirds that they've displaced?

That's what conservation is. It's the preservation of the historical record.

Which species have gone extinct as a direct result of the introduction of starlings?

What do you mean by the "preservation of the historical record"?

Displace, as in the context of interspecific competition, not replace or exterminate. It is not difficult to recognize that an introduced species is naturalized rather than native. Failing to do so indicates a "profound ignorance concerning the history of life on this planet." (your words, not mine)

We can debate costs and benefits of species introductions, but all I have been trying to do is correct an apparent misunderstanding of ecological terms. If someone comes to this forum looking for information on growing native plants and sees someone stating (to put it nicely) that there is no such thing, that is bound to cause confusion.

I accept the term "naturalized", clearly some introduced species are living freely and reproducing. What I reject are the terms "native", "nonnative", "exotic", "Alien", "invasive", etc.

All attempts at defining the term "native" rely on some arbitrary, and therefore meaningless, timescale. What defines a species as being native to North America; is it pre-columbian, pre-human, before or after the last ice age, pre-cambrian?

If this causes confusion it is only because some people have accepted unfounded simplistic concepts and terminology to explain natural phenomena

I wouldn't call the period of modern human history arbitrary and meaningless. It would only make sense than we would view the time of our existence to be relevant to how we view the natural world. Most floras consider a species to be non-native if there are no historical records of it prior to it being introduced. Many people would find that information to be useful or at least interesting.

For example, people are almost always surprised to learn that the venus flytrap was discovered in a small region near the border of NC and SC. They often assume that such an unusual plant would have to be from an exotic place on some far away continent.

Our capacity to understand the long history of life on earth is limited by our relatively short life span, and very short recorded history. If by the "period of modern human history" you mean the last 10,000 years or so, then the list of what would be considered "native" to North America is much longer than it is now, and would include organisms like the Proboscidea and Camelidae. Ten thousand years of history for one primate species is minuscule compared to 3.5 billion years of life on this planet, and is still an arbitrary and meaningless demarcation.

Most floras have been written in the past 100 years, are generally incomplete, and only tell us the species occuring in an area at that time. Still useful information, but is more akin to a photograph, and gives the false impression that the flora of that region is somehow static and unchanging, when in reality it is constantly changing and dynamic.

The Manual of the Vascular Plants of Northeastern United States and Adjacent Canada by Gleason & Cronquist is about as comprehensive as you could hope for in a flora. Names may change from time to time but the plants are in there. Along with them is information about habitat and distribution based on thousands (if not millions) of voucher specimens held in herbaria throughout the northeast. Such floras incorporate data that goes back much further than 100 years. Many North American plants were first described by Pehr Kalm, a student of Linnaeus, in the mid 1700's. The mountain laurel genus Kalmia was named in his honor.

I imagine Kalm saw a landscape quite different than what exists in the northeast today. Three hundred years forward, and I would think the same area will look somewhat different. In three thousand years it may be unrecognizable, and in three million totally alien.

Kalmia hirsuta grows in the flatwoods around here, it is a beautiful plant. Though I realize that this may not always be a welcome home for this species and it well may move on in time. Just as many of the species now found in the northeast once lived here on the Florida peninsula during the last ice age, your welcome.

Good article in NYTimes that makes a strong argument for "why natives?".

sure "Terry" because the deer wont bother your native plants or flowers they don't mine some people here got mad because the deer kept eating their store bought flowers had they bought native plants that wouldn't have happened I've been trying for 4 years now telling people to plant and grow native plants and they still do not listen and the same thing happens then they have the nerve to get mad at the deer because they wont plant whats native to here.

You're very lucky "Mike"! My parents live outside of town, on 16 acres, and the deer eat their native plants. Not all of them, but a lot of them. What's funny is how they've always stayed away from their Hosta! Never taken a single bite! If you're lucky, your neighbors will see your native plants continue to flourish while theirs continually get eaten, and that alone will make them ask you what it was you had been telling them.

well i hope so or they'll just keep wasting their money i guess.
i have a few Hosta flowers and they don't bother them neither even at my moms place too i guess they don't taste good to the deer or something.