I personally agree with your father and there is NOT a better native tree for our area than a comon sugar maple ...although they are really slow growing ...you might want to save your$$ and get a larger one from a nursery or find someone who has a few and have one moved this fall...that is usually ...if you look around...not too expensive and the tree is free... I love red buds and they do GREAT in our area the eastern white buds are also nice but harder to find ... magnolias are just ok IMHO many tend to be disease prone and some get scale easily...that is treatable with a small one but I have a 20 foot oner I am gonna likely loose to scale I'm afraid...cause it is just too big to treat easily for scale...One larger sugar maple and a couple of red buds and white buds woulds be a nice planting...David

If you want a large tree there is not a finer maple than a sugar maple. If you want something smaller that might be a better fit with the lot size a paperbark maple is very nice and has the added benefit of great winter interest. A multi-stem one might work very well in that location to.

Thankyou both, for your opinions. I would love to find a sugar maple at a good price that's already quite large but thats seems unlikely. I think I'll have to look into a totally different tree for that spot since I kinda need something to grow fast right there. Maybe a golden rain tree or an Ash? Although, I'm still not 100% against October glorys yet. marnie

Golden rain trees are VERY nice medium size trees the are a bit messy and you will have some seeds sprouting but they are easily mowed and killed unlike other trees( the seedlings!!)they have a great three season look NEAT flowers, leaves, and seed pods..I HIGHLY recomend them ...they can be planted out in full sun or used as an understudy tree and they do well in zone 5... I would stay away from ashes at this time .... the ash ( bore...I think )is currently destroying thousands of acres as close as ohio and it will soon arrive...In addition although nice summer trees...their fall color is short lived ..BLINK and it is gone ...they have beautiful color but most have trees totally defoliated almost overnight the coler on mine last a max. of TWO -THREE DAYS ONLY !!!! there may be varieties that last longer but I have yetr to see any..I personally find this frustrating and not worth planting for ...my wife and I argue about this every year I would NEVER plant another...it is only for "fast lookers" ;>) David

Thanks David. Can I get your personal opinion on October Glory? I know it is not native but its 'from a native' and is supposed to grow fast. Would goldenrain tree block a south-west sun and grow fast?
p.s. (us wives are always right) lol ...
jk...
kinda

If you like the idea of a Golden Rain Tree look for a selection called Rose Lantern. The seed pods are a rose color. David

Thankyou so much. I didn't even know a rose colored one existed! Do you know who sells them? They seem hard to come by. I did a google search and only came up with this image, which I am not sure is a rose lantern, because it doesn't say..

Here is a link that might be useful: rose color looking raintree

I have to admit, I'm confused as to why we'd consider a cultivar of a native red maple a "non-native" - is your dad suggesting this is a botanical definition or a cultural one?

Not to speak for "M" but I think her father meant a tree the has grown in her area for years ...and has established itself as a "native tree"...whether this is valid I cannot say but I do think there is NOTHING wrong with planting "native" trees that have shown durability and sustainability to a specific area...and in fact personally think it's a plus ...that being said I do NOT practice what I preach OBVIOUSLY with my JM "forest" in making and trees and plants from all over beautifying my yard ...I do though feel strongly that the comon sugar maple is by far the BEST shade tree for MY area central Illinois HANDS DOWN!!!! All other shade trees pale in comparison for shade color and lack of messiness as well as stength in strong storms and tornados..in my mind there is no better shade tree for this area PERIOD ...David

right, but red maples are native to Illinois, I guess I don't understand what would make a cultivar red maple so different, isn't it just a native red maple that has been selectively bred for color/branching, etc? It's not a hybrid or anything like that, right?

I wish we had more sugar maples in Chicago, but they aren't very pollution tolerant, although I think the City is selectively trying them here and there (or maybe cultivars!).

I don't know if they are hybredized or selectively bred ..I assumed hybreds but honestly don't know ...I have both red and sugar actually I have three if you include the dreaded silver maples that have voluteered and were hidden til they were too big to remove...what a CRUDDY tree) in my yard... one red that I bought ( can't remember the name and a couple I inherited that are smallish over 20 years old fully grown and about 15-18 ft tall they are grass hogs and root mongers..but nice trees but wouldn't recommend them if I knew what they are...they do make good climbing trees for kids though :>)) ......the one I planted is EVERY bit as slow growing as a sugar maple..I bought it as a B&B 12 ft tree and it is now after 12 or so years about 18-20 ft tall but has branched out nicely...I have nothing against the red maples just think the sugar is a bit more spectacular...and there are so many new varieties of reds ...some of which there have been posts about that seem to point to their being a bit persnikity in some areas as far as soil and climate is concerned...David

Greer Gardens might have Rose Lantern. David

My dad is surrounded by forest perserve and I think his choice in residence is self explanitory of his philosophy on trees. To the best of my understanding, his disapproval in my choice of October Glory was based on the space it takes away from a true native tree (God made) and the cultivars ability to biologicaly reproduce naturally. He said if everyone planted all cultivars(hybrids,ect), natives would gradually get fewer and further between. Also, he mentioned life of trees and durability.

Well, my two cents is that this attitude is the old, Fred Flintstone, misinformed, uneducated school. And further.....is this your yard or your pops?

His paranoia about cultivated trees vs. native trees is something like horticultural xenophobia. What is a "native" tree anyway. I mean it's scientifically proven that all of the seven continents were connected at one point.....I guess everything under the sun is native....and no tree is man made.

As far as frowning on cultivated varities...what nonsense! There is nothing more natural! Guess what. There is a reason they are cultivated, because they are better. And that is what nature does, select the best.

As far as my reccomendation on your yard. First, buy a weed whacker and clean up the lawn along the driveway. It looks horrible and I wouldn;t think of planting something new until that was in acceptable condition. Second, try the Korean maple. And put pops in the old folks home already. At the very least his horticultural knowledge should be put out to pasture.

OH, lol, you are too mean! I'm going to cry... but I asked for it. You Texans gotta throw out some sugar before you lay the smack down on lil' ol' midwesterners like me. You roughin toughies!

Okay, Okay, my dad isn't always right. Although he IS highly educated and seldom misinformed... and you may be mislead by biast opinions? Just think, one day after my dad's horticultural perception is "put out to pasture" we might be asking "where did all those valuable native trees go?"(I think it's already happening with some rare species). :(

YET, on the other hand, I might have just misconstrued the info somewhat (I'll have to double check).

But that aside, if you think my frontyard looks bad you should see the back and sides! (lol) I love yard work and get depressed if I don't mess with some dirt for some time, but lately its either the kids get fed or the weeds get pulled. And, when I neglect my household duties I STILL can't get a handle on them damn weeds! (But actually some of them turn out really pretty) :)

Also, if I put off planting until my yard was perfectly manicured, I would be trying to stick a shovel into a frozen rock solid ground! But I guess you don't have that problem down in Texas, huh?

Btw, thanks for the Korean maple tip, (I guess thats sweet enough). I'll be sure to look it up right after I tackle those weeds in front. (lol) Seriously though, thanks. (Criticism will always work when a lil' sugar is added :)

TC I kind of see it differntly ...take care of that tree and she will HAVE to clean up the rest..until you mentioned it I didn't notice the shabbiness it looked like an Illinois yard this time of year that wasn't owned by a golfer ;>)...I usually take one area at a time and clean it up ...once she decides what to do with the tree the rest will fall in place in fact if she's like me it will be manic, she will be forced to design the whole area around the tree!! ...it pretty hard to keep an area pristene that you DON'T like for one reason or another. My only concern is if she buys a small tree it will take years to become of "shade" size even the rain tree ....Remember she lives in Illinois not east or west coasts ...except for cruddy trees like her neighbors silver maples ....dreaded mulberries and a few others trees grow slow here...My advise still stands save your money and get a larger tree or have "dad" git ya one for your b'day or xmas or just to be nice ...David

I was just messing around about the yard. Actually my backyard looks like your front yard. I have to constantly battle weeds back there because of the "greenbelt" (read ditch) behind my house. And the sod I laid earlier this summer was trampled by two crazy dogs....

Im sure your dad is a smart guy....I dont know why I was so belligerent last night - even by my standards that was belligerent.......yikes...I guess my blood sugar was a little low.

Oh and if everyone has maples on your street maybe a conifer then?

conifers would work but not for shade...the best larger "pine" for this area is the white pine...red and hard needle pines seem to be prone to neematodes (sp)...after they get about 15-20 feet tall they die..White pines are not effected grow relly fast and large...but as i said they are not shade trees obviously...I have found little differnce in buying CHEAP 2ft tall ones or more expwensive 6 ft tall ones they grow to about the same size in ten years for some unknown reason about a foot or more pr year. David

David said, "once she decides what to do with the tree the rest will fall in place in fact if she's like me it will be manic, she will be forced to design the whole area around the tree!"

David, I had to laugh when I read this because that's EXACTLY how it is for me too! Its a usualy a slow process though cause $ always has other priorities (i.e. bills) ;)

TC, apology accepted. I get in those moods too (everyone does). besides, it made me lol, it was fun.

David, I LOVE WHITE PINES! If I lived on 1/4 more of an acre, I'd plant a grove of them. But for now, I think I'm going to put one on each side of my bonfire pit. Any more than that and I'd be shading out my fruit trees. I think I'm going for an october glory. Sugar maple much more beautiful though, gosh I wish I had more land to work with. I might try to squeeze in both. Thanks for defending me and for the inspiration. marnie

actually, I'm glad TC came in and got some more info, because when I read this:

"To the best of my understanding, his disapproval in my choice of October Glory was based on the space it takes away from a true native tree (God made) and the cultivars ability to biologicaly reproduce naturally. He said if everyone planted all cultivars(hybrids,ect), natives would gradually get fewer and further between."

I was really perplexed. I have a Red Sunset cultivar, and it produces lots of samaras, so I think your dad may be confusing sex-specific cultivars with cultivars as a larger group - it is true that some trees are bred to be males, as (especailly in urban areas) nobody wants gingko fruit on the sidewalk, or unnecesary tree litter backing up storm drains and causing flooded basements.

Good points i didn't read thatg post very thoroughly ...as I said above i thought it was a durability thing ..so called native trees certainly have that in their favor ..That being said their are alot of junk native trees...such as the mulberry that NO ONE should own as well as pin oaks silver maples etc .... and you are correct some male only trees are a blessing ... as anyone who has EVER owned a sweetgum will tell you ( there are now male sweetgums) BUT I still wouldn't recommend them cause the leaves are horrible and don't biodegrade or compost well!! and if you are in an ice storm area you will have a VERY thin tree if one hits :>) David

I asked my dad what he exactly meant and so it has been my misunderstanding. He said if we are speaking about something that is "selected," in his opinion, that's different than something hybrid (was the word he used). Meaning, I assume, the offspring are non-productive or bunk? But it also is a issue of duribility since he doesn't want to see me waste money on a tree thats might be diseased or insect infested for years, only to live to be 10 years old.

Carter thanks for your input too. I'm just learning all this stuff and am just repeating what I Think I heard my dad say. Just curious, so I can see my dad's perspective a little more clearly, does your Red sunset produce seeds that will actualy germinate in the ground and do those seedlings grow to be representive of the parent tree?

Although I respect my dad's opinion, I don't feel obligated to germinated my residential area, since almost every neighbor of mine, uses every kind of pesticide, herbicide, poisons of all kinds, to keep their yards as un-native and un-natural as can possibly be anyhow! (I guess I do learn a lot from my dad), but after absorbing all the info, I'm going to get the tree I feel best suits my purpose. Right now, october glory in the lead, only do to it's faster growth, otherwise it would definatly be a sugarmaple.

Okay, here is an updated picture (apple tree gone) and a broader view of my lot (which extends about 10 ft. left of the evergreens). If I put an October Glory roughly where the white bucket is (20 ft. from the house)... would it look proportioned to then place a sugar maple (thanks david) almost parallel to the front door but slightly to the left, and exactly parallel to the apple tree? (kinda near that brown patch).

yep, I find myself plucking little red maple babies (sorry!) periodically, so they're the real thing.

also, keep in mind many trees hybridize naturally, oaks are notorious for it.

your idea seems fine to me, I will say that a map from an aerial view, where you actually draw a circle indicating the eventual size of the crown, might help a lot.

here's a good example:

http://treegrowersdiary.com/landscape_map.html

The oct glory I am not sure about...it may be a bit closte to your house ...now if you plan on planting a small tree and moving in ten years i wouldn't worry about it...the sugar maple shopuld be ok although you could move it out a few feet further...The BIGGEST mistake WE all make is planting too close and not visualising how big trees become I am not worried about the sugar it will NOT grow fast ...i am not an oct glory expert so i don't know about it...If it were me I'd put a amure maple there instead they are very nice smaller maples provide some shade and grow really fast but arn't SOFT wood...they also have nice fall color and leaves are smaller so not so messy but it's your choice. You may be able to google up an aerial photo of your yard and zooom in on it...I know we did a few years back ...that would definitly help as Carter said...david

Hi, I'd like to chime in on the October Glory Maple. I am about 100 miles West of Atlantic Beach ,NC in sandy soil. My plant person wants to build a bed for this tree. I wonder if it will do well in the sun? thanks for any advice you can give. Linda NC