New gardener, hostas under maple tree

16 years ago

Hello. This is my first post to the forums, so I hope I don't make any inexcusable errors.

First, an introduction: My fiance and I recently moved to Adrian, MI (I noticed ken_adrian's posts) and I have a yard for the first time. It's a rental property but we'll probably be here at least 3-4 more years, and I'd like to put in a garden without spending a whole ton of money.

We have a large maple tree in the back yard, and the entire shaded area under it is completely bare. The roots are close to the surface, and the soil is like concrete. I don't know how much I can turn the soil over but could certainly try to do it in patches. The area is currently absolutely hideous and I'd like to plant it with hostas.

I figured it's not a good time to plant right now because of the heat, so it may be a good time to prepare the soil. Can anyone give me some suggestions? I thought I would try to dig out what I can to a depth of maybe 6". I can get free compost from the city, and I had planned to mix it in along with peat. The area is dry as, well, dirt, so I thought I'd water the dirt for a while after amending it. I am fairly sure the soil is mostly clay but am doing the shake-it-in-a-jar test today.

Also, I am checking the FAQ but if anyone from the area can recommend a place to get a few inexpensive hostas to start, I would appreciate it. Large hosta may do well for me as I have a huge space to fill and am planning other areas in the yard for shrubs and herbaceous flowers.

Finally, can they be planted in the fall?

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Comments (10)

mclarke
16 years ago
I'm so glad you posted here BEFORE you tried to plant hostas under your maple.

First thing to do, search in this forum for "maple" and read the threads written by people who have become murderously frustrated by trying grow hostas under maples.

As our friend Ken Adrian says, "Trees win, trees win, trees win."

Maples are the worst, and some kinds of maple are worse than others. Can you find out what kind of maple you have? Norway maples are notorious for their shallow, thirsty roots. NOTHING will grow underneath, not even English Ivy, which will grow almost anywhere.

I had a big Norway maple in the backyard of my last house. In my ignorance, I was thrilled to have this big tree in my back yard! I imagined all sorts of greenery underneath. I loved that tree!

Six years later, frustrated beyond belief, I had it cut down.

So. Do you have some other space in your yard for hostas?
binkin
Original Author
16 years ago
Oh, rats. I believe it is a red maple. Perhaps I can just mulch it over and put some containerized hostas around.

I had planned to put hostas in a part-shade bed near the back of the house, around a witch hazel or fringetree, so perhaps I will have to confine them to that area for now. I'm really close to Hallson's so I will probably make a trip up there once I get anything resembling a prepared bed (the rest of the soil is as bad as what's under the tree). So, any advice on soil prep is still welcome!
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YES YOU CAN .. BUT IT WILL BE A BATTLE.. I CAN ALREADY SEE .. oopps ... surface roots ... any soil you add will be invaded by this tree... only the most vigorous hosta will survive ... like the undulata clan ... or maybe sum and substance .... plant bigger plants into the area .... build a retaining wall ... add only native soil .. try not to cut any maple roots .... every cut root will generate a billion new feeder roots which will out compete most hosta for soil/water and life .... never fertilize ... and always broadcast water .... if you do any of the above only for the hosta.. the tree will grow into and kill the hosta .... add the crumbiest soil you can buy .. and plant the hosta into it before the tree knows its there .. do not go above the green line with soil .. the tree trunk flare must remain above the soil .... if it were me.. and i planned on living at the house forever.. I WOULD KILL THE MAPLE AND PLANT AN OAK ..... here is your picture with a poorly drawn example ... lol ... of what i am trying to explain .... i will not leave it online forever .... so download it if it is important to you .... good luck ken
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Very pretty! Make sure when you water, water the entire area (not just the hostas) all the way out to the Maples' dripline so those nasty roots don't have to seek water where your plants are. I agree with the others, you are still crowded in the original bed. You need to either make more beds or extend the others. Remember, hostas can take some sun if that is an issue for you. It is quite obvious to me from the looks of your photos that you are quite GOOD at growing hostas. They're in BEAUTIFUL shape! Grass is overrated - Go forth and dig some more! ;o) Char
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Ok, right or wrong, but 3 years ago I did exactly what old gardener told me to do and it seems to be working fine, so far. First, he told me NOT to dig in a maple root zone since DISTURBED maple roots will regrow anyway and will do that with much more vigor than undisturbed ones. So, I built that bed/border right on top of the existing soil. Second, he said to limb it up as high as possible in order to reduce a green mass roots need to support/feed, thus reducing maple's needs to grow more roots than it needs. Mature tree already have a sufficient root system to support itself and in no need to grow more roots than it is already have. Third, if you are building raised bed around maples, leave a circle with a radius of 2-3' around the trunk 'as is' (not raised, not filled) in order not to smother the trunk. Fourth, plant shallow rooted or adaptable shrubs in a fall, as most of the roots growth occures in a cold weather. Try to chose low feeder plants that in ordinary beds wouldn't need fertilization. Plant as large shrubs as you can afford. Your new plants will have about 2 years of no or minimal competition from the maple. By that time they will be established enough to sustain on its own or with some help from you in form of ocassional feeding. Fifth, be aware, that doesn't matter how established your plants will be, you'll be obligated to water them forewer as if they would be planted in a full sun. Maple will absorb only the certain amount of water it needs for itself thus your plants will not be thirsty if you proved adequate watering. I followed his directions to the tee and that how the portion of the bed/border that was built around 3 mature maples look three years after, as of today: List of shrubs: Pieris, Skimmia, Rhododendron, Azalea, Cl. hydrangea, Kerria, Cornus alba, Five-leaf aralia, Leucothoe. Perennials: Hosta, Fern, Tricyrtis, Dicentra eximia, Corydalis, Gentian, Brunnera and zillions of minor spring bulbs.
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Elegans under a very big maple (Schwedler / Norway) planted many years ago. I planted a division of this plant high under a Crimson King and it didn't last. I think Babka's observation of the problem suggests a solution. Spinout bags are treated with lead to keep roots out, but they also keep roots in. If you used the spinout material, but instead of a complete bag made it long and deep with an open bottom this might allow a hardy, giant hosta to establish a root system below the maple root system. This might explain why this Elegans has flourished for many years (17\-20) right under this maple. I think the supporting root system must be under the maple's root system. This Elegans must have been tough enough to grow down below the maple's root system. I don't see how it could look so god year after year if it was competing constantly with the Maple's aggressive root system. When I planted a division of this plant on a mound next to a Crimson King it probably never had a chance to get through a very well established root system. The roots on the maple are on the surface and sprawl all over. Liza, I think the raised bed is a big problem. They grow fine at first and then the maple roots move in and the hosta don't have much of a chance to get past the level that maple roots favor. They probably migrate up to the new ground level you have established in the raised bed. Aggressive roots will grow right through regular landscape cloth. I think 16 inches or so root depth is typical. Spinout bags come in 15 1/2 tall sizes. Using two opened up can get you deeper than the 'maple root zone'. I think treated ground cloth is available which might be the answer for raised beds as long as you place a barrier a couple of feet deeper than the ground level around the outside perimeter of the bed or use a layer at the bottom of the raised bed. I don't know the cost, but it should be less expensive than a lot of fabricated bags. Sounds like a lot of work to me, but it depends on how important it is for you to get this to work. Based on the work you have done so far it seems you are not ready to quit. Good luck, whatever you try, Jon
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
16 years ago
i hate to say it.. but forget about trying to grow them under that tree.. its roots are already at the surface... and frankly.. EVERY TIME YOU STICK A SHOVEL IN AND SEVER A ROOT.. IT WILL BE REPLACED BY 100 NEW ROOTS ...

ergo i suggest pots... i hate pots... but many peeps have good luck with them .... i will even give you the pots that are stored in my barn for free .... barretts in adrian also has a recycle program.. and i am pretty sure you can go take them if you want them ... almost all nurseries have a pile of pots they are willing to give away ..... besides.. if you succeed .. you can take them with you when you move.. go figure on that ....

now... would you care to work like a dog for some plants???? i have to move a bunch of clumps... and might be willing to give small pieces for starts for some labor ....

how about you come over some evening with fiancee and have a tour and get some pots.. and we can discuss acquisition ... i am on the way to Tecumseh .... email me from my members page ....

think about it ...ken

PS: fall planting in zone 5 can lead to winter heave ... now is prime time to plant/move hosta ... they are beginning to grow roots and store food for next year ...
mclarke
16 years ago
Wow, binkin, what a treat! You MUST MUST MUST go!

You can mulch under the maple if you want... I tried that. (I tried EVERYTHING.)

In my case, the maple roots grew up through the mulch.

Gawd, I despised that tree.
binkin
Original Author
16 years ago
Ken - I will talk to my fiance and figure out when is a good time for him, since he's the one who drives. I will definitely email you. Thank you for the opportunity - if nothing else I think that would be a great learning experience.

I spent some time sitting in the chairs I have under the Dread Maple and saw what might be a good spot for some hosta. There's an old laundry pole that I can train a vine up and plant hosta around. That area is in shade all day. Probably just gonna go with mulch and pots under the tree itself.

Thanks for the advice so far.
janetpetiole
16 years ago
I've been reading the book - Moss Gardening by George Schneck.

Moss can be grown around the maple, but you might want to check out the book to see if it's something you'd want to maintain.
newhostaaddict
16 years ago
binkin,,,
welcome....and...

don't miss the opportunity to see a mature hosta garden...they are stuff to build your dreams on...

and a good strong back in trade for some of 'ken's' hostas is "sure" a 'good deal'....can't go wrong in my opinion...

jill
mclarke
16 years ago
Moss?

Really?

I believe moss needs moisture, yes? It gets SO dry under maple trees, I think you'd have to spend your life watering the moss. And even then, you'd be watering the $%#@@! maple tree. AGGGGHHHHHhhhhh.
binkin
Original Author
16 years ago
Thanks again for all the pointers. I'll definitely keep reading this forum and keep you all updated. I thought I would include a photo of the area that I took today around 12:30pm. Gotta love the salvaged-from-the-curb chaise longues, ne? The begonia and impatiens in pots seem to do well there and I can enjoy them while I sit under the tree. I may end up moving our patio set (salvaged from the future in-laws) under the tree for shade purposes, so the area may look better with potted hostas, if that's all I can do.
hostasgalore1
16 years ago
Where maples are the worst for surface roots people need to keep in mind that ALL trees will go to the water source. A garden with clay soil will have more roots near the surface where a garden with more sand will have deeper root systems. If you want deep roots on a tree then I'd suggest watering 5 to 6 hours in that area and do it once every 2 to 3 weeks. Watering more at once lets the water seep into the ground further and the roots will follow the moisture. Now if you water for 30 minutes once a week then your tree roots will look for the source of water closer to the surface.

New gardener, hostas under maple tree

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New gardener, hostas under maple tree

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