Herb,
I'm scratching my head to fathom what or who AT's are,..
nevertheless, the essay is excellent and I could not be in more agreement.
It does however bring up an older issue, wherein we were discussing Art vs Craft, in which my comments were that the Japanese garden is comprised of 'what is comfortable and commonplace', proven the test of time in 'recognizable patterns' that mean something to someone, and to think in terms of being the 5th or +th generation occupying a space, and to design from that standpoint (if it is a new garden & refurbish according to, if an older site).
This essay would then also indicate that the land, the site came first and the clients perspective comes second, with the gardener as the means of expression/interpretation of site and client.

The cruncher to the essay's scope, is that, referring back to Yanagi, in the Age of Craft, Yanagi observes we are in the Age of the Individual (and the "I want one of these and can design how I want to is then falicy"), in that the Japanese garden, being commonplace - over time - which makes it more homogenous than individual, is then more craft than art, visavis, more craftsmanship than innovative artistry.

Indeed, as mentioned, these concepts should enable and empower homeowners to design their own gardens...

-yet, a garden is not a comfortable place if the owner can not see themselves expressing themselves within the space.
Where will you draw the line? at too innovative? or too beautiful? or too crafty? or too predictable? Or when it has no meaning (homogenous commonplace, copied) to anyone?
or, at the When is the garden comfortable? and stop there. Restraint and knowing when to stop being a fundament...

edzard

Edzard,

I'm glad you agree so wholeheartedly with the essay. The clue to what ATs are is in line 6 of it.

As to the rest of your posting, I'm afraid I too am scratching my head. I've tried very hard, but (to me) most of it is incomprehensible. I can't, as you might say, make head or fundament of it.

Herb

I added this sentance at Top here before anyone reads this. Its long .Has no real meaning. Rather full of tagets and only meant to be a personal cathartic spark to keep me interested in Japanese Gardens. Please excuse ramblings and useof forum space.

thanx Rick.

I think to date this is my very favorite thread . For I know so little of Japanese Gardens. I am not skilled craftsman nor do I have ability to converse in such topics as most threads here.

However this thread contains something of Hope.

With hope and words and phrases :

" Art "
"Comfortable and common place "
"Recognizable patterns "
" 5th plus generation occupying space "

Add to these above Client Comes Second !! Wow ..and site comes first How wonderfully easy then for all the obove to meld into image without being stiffled.

And " Originality" Phew my heart beats with warmth reading this.

I think all of the Above words phrases Edzerd Wrote and I picked out as ones I like helped me feel sense of Self Esteem again.

I was feeling sense of never building or thinking of Japanese Gardens EVER again over course last year because I lacked the craftsmanship Skills to be a perfectionist in assmebling materials . Master tradesmen.

I think there is a very good thread here . For me at least : )

I feel like I can live here in obtuse and offcentered thoughts believing I am thinking in Japanese Styled thoughts of Garden artforms . My own Fantasy.

Only one thing echoes in back of my mind as a reverbration still felt and will be forever .

" How does the Gardens art teach practical ways as to how one lives life"

Buddhism is obviously the core in practical teachings wisdoms . Sutras . This brings once again a sense of needing highly trianed mind inorder for the Garden art to be good. Once again a burdon arises in my mind. Sense of needing erfectionism..just like that of the Skilled Masters of boulder setting , carpenters and Designer. Here you need same high levels learnings but in Religious texts.

Layers are forming once again as I ramble and this is why Japanese Gardens are often Mystical and magical to Westerners like myself. I see such perfection of Religion, Myth , Legend , Folklore , Math, Science , Astronomy , Poetry , Mysticism, botony , OMG WOW But sighh way too complex for the Mind that is not tamed and wanders as mine does.

NowI am brought to foundations of Art. Concept of Zero fostered in India . My heart just felt adrenaline exitement yet also sadness for now my mind is going back into time imemmorial , ancient times . Time when People were so ignorant yet so sophisticated and intellectual. I am just a simple minded man compared to the Philosophers , Mathmaticians Astronomers , Poets etc Of ancient India .

To me this thread represents the Formula needed for the simple minded person average human to move forward !!

Feel alive. Feel proud and to recognise what this Formula is .

the combination of Philosophers ,Atrologers , Cosmographers , atronomers and mathmaticians creating Astronomical Gigantic strings of numbers in poetic prose through Mysticism , Magick, Religion and most colorfull flaxible imaginable ways of comprehending abstract concepts ideas through artistic mind and logic combined.

No Wonder why Something so complex as Buddha Styamuni Holding up a flower for no apparent reason and Mahakashyapa smiling. Was that the Yellow flower ?

No wonder why 2000 years later Concept of Vast emtiness , Zero and Zen thoughts are so simplified into a Raked Garden fo Gravel .

No ownder why Two Cultures that of India !! and Japan thousands miles apart simplified most complex vast numbers and teachings into such simple and similar forms of art.

Sense of Abbreviating most complex increasingly numerous numbers , stars , dieties , wisdoms and knoeledges into a Formula usually Mathmatical but only created through Unique Cultural Soup of Mysticism Poetry and Art .

In Japanese Garden we can see the most perfect impeccable skills of highly trianed craftsman wroking materials of Garden along with a Formula ( Concept Zero math numbers in my mind being the Formula ..Hugh Numbers numeral system) into a fluid poetic prose like artform seen in both Cultures Nature ( India > Japan )

I live in Colonial America Lower NEw york ..Templed hill of Hudson River I once read reffering to GReek Revival Architecture . Colonial New England homes .

Eatern Concepts of Garden, Art , Math , Religion EVERYTHING seems MESSY to that of GReek , Roman and English Architecture and concepts of Math Geometry and subsequently our Very real time lifestyles today.

That Squareness Came to a Head when America Adopted the French system of surveying land to place ownership of Propert on Papper rather than mending walls .

Once again Math becomes Law and through Law Designs are effected all the way down to Garden Artforms .

Bounderies , borders , lines , spaces .

This adoption of Survey on Papper led to the Sqaureness of Midwest States and counties borders lines .

Reminds me of Mandalas in a way. eminds me layout Kyoto..so Square !!

however America is not like Mayan Culture, Not like Ancient India , Ancient Japan, Ancient China . America , England Ancient Greece and Rome all shared the same needs and methods used in Identical basic intellectual pshychoogical societal and all those big words conditions )

So Roman, Greek, English and american simplifacation followed similar needs that I believe didnt contain the Soup pf obtuse offcentered artistic yet highly structured mathmatical concepts as did India for expample.

We went to the Moon understanding Beyond Place !! Beyond this world . Western.

Others Asia Went Beyond Thought !! Beyond the mind .

what incredible achievements of Ying and Yang Cultres respectively . West and East.

But now is a tme of melding East and West .

Isamu Noguchi is My Hero.

Andy Goldsworthy is also another Hero for me.

Both are Western Artists and both were comissioned to create works of Art and I think Both of these men Hold in thier hears Essence of this thread .

Hope and Surrealism.

To continue barrowing from the most Genious minds of Science Math Religion Poetry Astronomy Astrology in order the understand Yourself . You. Who you are and the unanswerable Awes and Fascinations of Life and Universe.

This means Constant Flow Looking Outwards..Beyond into the Stars and space.

Creating new Artforms
New Myths
New Heros and Legends.

And how does this all come ot play in a Japanese Style Garden for typical American Joe like myself who is unstudied , unskilled and rather behind bills always within month of being broke.

How risky is it to be eccentric and artsy in your neighborhood ? When everyone is struggling to pay mortgage and make thier daily commute to work. Daily circles of life modern life. Stresses .

In Conclusion I think Japanese Gardens for average american community are almost in most obtuse use of the word Hedonistic . Too artsy , too specail..too layered and complex fiull of colorful ways of Seeing .

In a Wealthy Community A Home Designed and Lanscape Designed in Complete Homogenous Japanese Manner that average person sees only at Public Japanese Gardens in Cities is part of Business Success . And Godbless those who made moneis to Hire poeple such as Edzerds ability. And I think Wealthy Communites accept this ino thier community. Its a separate and minority notion of the " American Dream" To live in exotic homes having exotic lifestyles the promote wellness and homogenous atmosphere for these financially secure well of Personalities.

This leads me to wonder about Wandering Medicants Renunciates , Buddhisms Monks of Old and Modern Day.

Thialand !! Land of poverty and such Wealth . The Wealthy are once again harkening back to Old Ways of Buddist retreat. Akin to Hermitage. Away from Monks Social climbing of Ladder through education and job promotion even within the National government buerocracy of its Religion..Temples .

Back to the Simple Hut > Toko no ma of your body and mind .
Back to Forest dwelling > Niwa
Back to a Boulder in a river to sit upon > Niwa
A Tree to sit under > Niwa
A Waterfall > Niwa
Simple vast plain of grass on periphery of forest > Sono ?
Sit on hill overlooking orchard > Sono

Kare San sui style Garden of buddhist Temple. Niwa Sono .

emotions .

We all share the same human Body.
We all go through same changes of body as we age .

While comtemplating art Surreal Art in Guggenhiem. Or a Boulder in a river Hudson Rivers Source high Mountians . Contemplating on An Ancient Sycamore Oak or a Waterfall. Contemplating .

Howdoes indirect representational art of Surrealism and Asian Concpets Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism , Shinto , Taoism take your mind to that notion of Beyond Thought.

Postcards of images concepts from another Relm sent to us by dieties . Sense of Beyond thought..beyond mind. specail Yes. Enlightenment ..How ?

Beyond place..beyond earth...our solar system, our Universe..Universes ..Potentiality of finding Ultimate Truth.

I think for all humans is unique need for SPECAIL SPOT t ocomtemplate these questions answers and how we are mentaly level minded and understand meaning of life and how our mind and body is in harmony wiht society and institutions rituals we sometimes are luckily born into and live life throughout or adopt and struggle to learn through outside influences.

however may be the case EVERYONE needs that SPECAIL Place.

Might be a recliner chair hidden in corner room downstairs or High atop mountian or a corner museum near a familiar statue or painting or a place in backyards or local knot community woods..along seahore a place you visit ..a spot familiar eventhough for miles and miles all the seashore looks exactly the same.

Secret Place .

Place serenity.

A place where if you took a guest your mind is ready to listen to that person with compassion , empathy sympathy understanding and right speech.

Akin to Tea Ceremony.

Final Question answer..thought.Finality of this thread about Art and Skill. Value of Money.

" Can one take what is Aquired in a Designed " SPACE " and apply this to practical ways as to how one lives life and for betterment of self and human society. Big changes ..not about what kind of cereal you like to eat after leaving this space. Kind of change that is akin to weather patterns and chaos thoery..butterfly effect within ones mind attianing that sense of urgency !! Speed to understand what is BEyond thought and Beyond Place and humanities ONE common goal.

Hope.

To this I hope best of luck to anyone designing a Japanese Styled Garden : ) Good fortune and Happy prosperous life .

Think Happy thoughts. Be artistic and keep heart and mind of three year old . Skills will follow eventually.

My mind now waders to those essential words.

NIWA SONO.

MA MU

Aware

Sabi

Wabi

Tome

God those Easterners have knack for creating words simplifiying my Niave Ramblings . Words akin to milk and honey on a spiders web for Westerners seeking meanings of life.

Rcky, are you sure this forum is the right place for your ramblings? You might enjoy getting involved in a creative writing class somewhere.

Ricky;

Glad to see you back!!!! Your contributions and insight are always welcome.

Michael

Many teachers here . Please excuse my ignorance : )I'll try better.

At a workshop with the late Allen Ginsburg, a stream of conscious guy like you, he said "write hot and edit cold". In other words yours are the thoughts written as they cross your mind. These first thoughts are the best thoughts, but the work comes when you come to arrange them coherently.

Rcky, your words are a special place. I flowed with them and enjoyed.

Edit Cold. oye vey.

Write hot is to grab subject with intensity and mold it into image. Passion.

Edit cold is what society needs in order to execute a plan. To answer this thread Herb and Edzerd started requires Edit Cold.

This is hard for me. I'm scared to do that. Edit Cold.