The appeal of Japanese gardens probably has more to do with species-related traits than cultural influence.

Interesting questions and ideas, Christian. Thanks for moving this over to its own thread, by the way.

From a practical standpoint (as a professional garden designer) the choices are tempered by what the client wants. The ideal client wants my favorite type of garden to build, which is a Japanese-inspired garden using native plants and materials according to Japanese design principles and aesthetics. I'm interested in exploring Christian's ideas of objects or materials which correspond in function or spiritual representation with objects often used in Japanese gardens. I wonder if it can be done.

The second-best type of client is one who has slightly different ideas from mine, but who is receptive to explanations about why certain things should or shouldn't be done. The garden is a compromise.

The non-client is one who insists on things I wouldn't want my name associated with, such as torii gates in a secular garden. The relationship must be one of genuine mutual respect or it just won't work.

Must go, just beginning to think about these ideas....

Lee

If we concentrate on all the points at which the Japanese and western cultures have things in common, rather than on what is distinct to each, does it make the task of acknowledging our own culture easier? For example, I would not think that the idea of a lantern in the garden is exclusively Japanese. Westerners - at least those who have any proximity to sea coasts - are entirely familiar with lighthouses, which have - I suggest - a strong cultural significance. The little lantern on the peninsula placed at the tip of the gravel peninsula overlooking the pond in the Katsura Palace garden (and that of others similarly placed) has, for most westerners, a symbolism that is immediately recognisable.

Creating a sense of enclosure is certainly considered more essential by Japanese gardeners than it is by most westerners, but I should have thought that nonetheless, a good proportion of westerners do value a garden that give a sense of privacy. Hedges are certainly common to both and I would not think that bamboo is the only wood suitable for a Japanese garden fence.

It seems to me that while the manner of use of rock in the garden may be influenced culturally in Japan, it is something that is near enough to westerner's appreciation of rock to be an influence that is not only absorbable immediately, but that has many parallels in western styles of gardening.

This leads me to wonder if one of the fundamental questions here is the appropriate use of artifacts? For example, is it possible to have a Tea Garden without a Teahouse? Can it be appropriate to have a Teahouse if it will never be used as such? Using it as a shed to store your garden tractor & fertilisers seems wrong. But if somebody can really afford one I would feel much more comfortable to know that it was being used as a study and library.

Youre right Herb, there are many things already in the garden which are culturally significant in both Japanese and Western cultures, i am just wondering out loud if we can take these things and do as the Japanese are so proficient at, and make them our own. It seems that very little art is completely original, but what we do is take an idea or respond to an inspiration and then add our own flavor to it.

Mark Keane seemed to be exploring this avenue in his Teahouse Project. He and his class harvested native reeds and twigs and use reclaimed wood from old barns to build a teahouse and roji complete with a tsukubai constructed from a solid block of wood. His presentation at the Symposium on the 'Omega Point Garden' also showed some forward thinking in multi-cultural symbolism.

Exploring further i noticed that one of the captions read "posts and wattle", bringing back lucid memories of history class and learning about wattle-and-daub construction of our European ancestors. Could this be our heritage? The pioneers of North America built sod homes and log cabins and used post and beam construction, this seems to have a cultural significance, it feels like something that belongs to me. Im not suggesting a sod teahouse ;), but this could be a source for materials and ideas that may be useful with some refinement. I can certainly see a sod wall covered with moss. The Native Americans certainly can provide inspiration with their wigwams, tipis, sweat lodges, and even igloos.

-christian

Here is a link that might be useful: Mark Keane's Teahouse Project

Christian,

Your mention of our own ancestors' use of wattle & daub construction brings back a memory of several such cottages within a radius of little more than a mile from where I grew up in the country in Lancashire - all with rammed earth floors, tiny windows, and thatched roofs. All except one were abandoned and demolished wile I was still a teenager - and the last one was demolished within a few weeks of the old guy who lived there dying.

My own feeling is that except perhaps when people like Mark Keane embark on such a project, there will be little possibility of a more general revival, for gardening or any other cultural purpose, of any of the techniques of the era when those cottages were built. Aside from a general lack of interest in them, the skills needed to use those techniques have almost vanished - and I suspect that the expense of re-learning them and paying the newly-educated artisans to apply them would make them a rare curiosity.

My own inclination in looking for our own cultural factors would be to look not backwards in time, but forwards.

For example, there seems to be a new & growing appreciation of gardens as a desirable aid to therapy for the sick, and as an equally valuable means of alleviating stress in the modern world. Assistance in patient therapy is in fact one of the declared aims of the new Inazo Nitobe Memorial garden now being constructed at the Royal Victoria Hosptial here in Victoria. Whether this trend will also influence the style of garden is difficult to foresee, but bearing in mind the varied needs of hospital patients, my guess is that it will.

Would you think it possible that in addition to things like the Stroll garden and the Tea garden, we may eventually come to recognise, say the Therapeutic garden? Even perhaps the Workbreak garden where people can unwind for a while?

Herb

I was only recently researching the options for a thatch roof dwelling, and was saddened by the paucity of tradespersons with the requisite expertise .. let alone the maddening rules and regulations pertaining to this 'primitive' roofing material..

Many of these trades are being abandoned in favour of quick, modern techniques - this seems to be a world wide phenomenon... the numbers of tradespeople experienced in the traditional ways are dwindling, and there are just a few brave souls who make a deliberate lifestyle choice to become a master carpenter/metalworker or whatever.. and subsequently take a vow of poverty - which once was the domain of nuns ... who are now too busy jetting about, appearing on talk shows & writing books (and not about singing!)

On the subject of cultural influences - I'm not sure whether I'd want to create a Japanese landscape garden and use/incorporate western artifacts as already mentioned... even though, I believe some can be used with artistic sensitivity - I would prefer instead to just create a naturalistic landscape which could depict anything from: a quiet grove /lakeside/ seashore/ mountain stream etc without any of the accoutrements. This is something any culture can relate to

Jack

Some Japanese garden features (such as the fence) can be recognized and appreciated in both cultures but actually have different meanings or associations.

The fence in a Japanese garden is essentially a way of distinguishing "uchi" and "soto," it distinguishes what belongs to one person or group from all the rest. It can also mark transition between an area with one degree of purity from another (which is actually related to the notion of keeping yourself separate from "others"). Although a side effect may be a feeling of enclosure, comfort and safety, that isn't the main purpose.

A close Japanese friend with whom I toured private gardens in Japan a couple of years ago complained about how the Japanese put up all those walls and fences to define their territories. To me they were just beautiful walls and fences, but to her they were inextricably connected with the idea of uchi and soto --- to her it was a form of exclusivity (she is very liberal and inclusive in her thinking).

On the subject of the disheartening loss of traditional wattle and daub skills, etc., you might be happy to learn that a fabulous series of books (in Japanese) called "Tsuchi to Sakan no Hon" has been published recently which covers every imaginable aspect of traditional and modern experimental (including mud hut teahouses) mud plastering. I ordered all three books in the set from a friend in Japan and have been drooling over them ever since. These books are very high-quality productions, put out by the same organization that publishes "Niwa" magazine. In addition to covering plastering in Japan, they also have articles about traditional plastering in other countries. Truly heartening.

Lee

P.S. We use Eastern White Cedar posts in our fences and substitute wild spirea (which grows everywhere in fields around here) for young bamboo. The result is very Japanese-looking but uses only native materials.

Lee -

Until your posting I'd never heard of uchi & soto, but it sounds like a very interesting cultural attitude. Am I right in thinking that, for Japanese, a hedge/fence/wall doesn't just regulate the view outwards from the garden, but makes a statement to those who would otherwise look in amounting to "Inside here, we're separate (and different?) from you."? Can it connote also "superior"? Or is it more a case of Japanese feeling that it's unseemly to draw attention to one's possessions?

In any case it contrasts interestingly with many North American front gardens where the owners seem to be saying - Look At This - and even more perhaps with attitudes in Holland. A Swiss I was chatting to recently told me that what struck him about Holland when he was there on a visit was how most people not only had living rooms that faced the street, but made sure that their windows were both spotless and kept with the curtains drawn back so that passers-by could see inside and note that that it too was squeaky clean & in pristine condition!

Personally I prefer the Japanese result, whatever the motivation behind it.

Herb

Herb ---

"Uchi" just means "inside" and "soto" means "outside." During the festival/holiday known as Setsubun, people throw beans inside the house to drive out bad spirits, saying "Oni wa soto, fuku ga uchi" ("out with the demons, in with good luck). This is still a common practice today (maybe a bit like observing halloween).

I think Japanese culture is rather famous for the uchi and soto dichotomy --- a person is always identified with his or her group, from the family unit to the nation as a whole, depending on the situation. My host father explained it perfectly for me when I was an exchange student when he said that if a stranger's hat blew off and he returned it to him that he (the one who did the favor) would actually apologize when returning the hat. The reason is that the person receiving the favor would have no opportunity to return the favor because the two are strangers. You are not supposed to introduce yourself to strangers in Japan, you must be introduced by a mutual acquaintance --- this helps control who is and is not included in "your group."

Someone once quipped that if Descartes (or whoever it was) had been Japanese he would have said "We think, therefore we are."

This reminds me of a wooden box I found at a flea market in Japan --- the owner claimed it was a very old and authentic box from England --- inside was an old-looking piece of paper on which was typed "To be or not to be --- that is question."

Lee

haha.. was it at least in a cursive font? :) - that reminds me of an informercial I saw a while back - from the US - hawking some memory enhancement program... The chap whose product it was, took out a folded piece of paper from his pocket, saying that he'd even recieved a letter of interest from a professor in Oxford England... and as the 'interviewer/shill' leaned forward intently, he began to read it out loud: "Dear so and so, I would really love for you to come to England.... " :))

Lee - Those books sound sumptuous - I'm also experimenting with straw bale and earthen/cement plaster..as this creates a very thick, lightweight wall with a very organic feel - which can be shaped to resemble a Japanese dobei wall with a shingle roof, or a modern linear structure..

One book I'd heartily recommend to architects/builders/renovators is: Measure and construction of the Japanese House by Heino Engel. The Japanese measures: ri; jo; ch; shaku etc are
explained with both imperial and metric equivalents - there are also many sectional and plan drawings and much more..

Jack

Herb and all,

Regarding looking forward and looking back, my intent is not to necessarily revive in the traditional sense these relics of the past, but rather to utilize them as a source of inspiration, whether it be the combination of materials or the method of construction, by applying the principles of Jgardening to our particular set of circumstances in the West. I think that if we design our gardens using materials that reflect our particular heritage, it will create a more powerful personal experience with the garden. Im not suggesting turning the whole JG thing on its head, but just some experimentation out of the box with indigenous elements that follow the guidelines of JG design.

I agree up to a point that a garden should be composed of designs which are universally accessible to any viewer, but different situations may require different focuses. The cultural aspect may need to be emphasized in private residence garden or a temple/church garden to create a sense of intimacy with the family or community and the garden, whereas it may need to be presented in a more subtle manner in a public or commercial garden which is constructed for the masses. Whereas the Slawsonesque school of design seems to focus entirely on inspiration from natural beauty(a universal theme), i think the element of 'man and nature' and their relationship and man's culture and his niche in the natural world is missing from that equasion. I think it is the cultural part of the design that includes you as part of the garden, and it distinguishes the garden from the rest of the natural world.

I think the primary goal is to create something that resonates with the garden's audience, whether it be peace or insight or relaxation. People will continue to have strong connections with nature from evolving alongside nature, and i think that this connection exists in our genetic makeup. I think these connections also exist with regards to our cultural heritage and therefore has the potential to be a powerful design tool to deeply move an individual. Look at the sacredness of the stone lantern, because of its cultural history, it resonates on a deep level with the Japanese and that gives it special significance. While i can appreciate many of the nuances of the Japanese culture such as the stone lantern, i also yearn to find something that resonates on on a similar level with my own cultural history.

-christian

Lee and all,

The books sound like treasures. I do have a few issues of 'Niwa" magazine which are fascinating to look through, but at the same time frustrating to be unable to read the articles. Too bad translations of 'Niwa' arent available for us gaijin.

I suppose that there is more to the function of a fence than creating a mood, and it is interesting to hear about the associations that your friend has with fences. It is a good example of how deeply ones culture is ingrained in their worldview. She looks at fences and becomes irritated, while you and i look in admiration. Do you think with so many different people holding so many different worldviews, that cultural elements in a garden would only serve to irritate those who dont appreciate them? I wonder if there are those secularists who would oppose the use of the oribe lantern, having a buddhist sculpture on the post, in their garden. I wonder if we need to stick to the universals of plants and stones to make the garden for everyone?

-christian

I think I understand what you're looking for, but most of the time-honoured things that occur to me as being associated with western culture or as giving westerners a sense of connection with their past don't seem to lend themselves to being used or reflected in gardens. For example an ancient gravestone in a an ancient churchyard may resonate with people who see it in the churchyard, but I should think anything reminiscent of it would look false in a garden. Nor can I imagine how the ancient custom of making a pilgrimage to a holy place could be reflected in a garden's layout.

One of the few things that I think could give the sort of feeling you're looking for is the way stone was used in western Europe - e.g for walls, cobbled streets and public areas. Their construction certainly wasn't 'Japanese' but they seem to me to have a refinement all their own & I think they'd be well suited to paths and walls in a garden. What does everybody else think?

Click here for several pictures

Christian and everyone,

A very interesting subject we're exploring. A couple of thoughts I had:

Using native plants and local materials in Japanese-inspired gardens fulfills for me at least part of what Christian seems to be looking for --- a sense of familiarity and personal resonance/identification with the garden materials. For instance, I like to use lichen-covered boulders with low-bush blueberry, bearberry (arctostaphylos uva-ursa) and crowberry (empitrum nigrum) in Japanese-inspired gardens here in Maine because it evokes our lovely rock-strewn alpine habitats.

Another idea is the Arts and Crafts garden tradition --- are there elements which could be borrowed from that?

Herb's European stonework reminds me a bit of castle stonework in Japan except it seems a bit more rigid and regular. In adapting it to a Japanese garden I think you might actually just end up with something similar to what is already found in Japanese gardens.

I like what Christian said about "man and nature" in the garden. I feel the same way. If a garden is entirely naturalistic, what is the point? I can find beautiful natural landscapes (for now, anyway...) all around. But a garden which blends in subtly hints of a human touch can be charming or profound.

Lee

Lee,

Your liking for the use of native plants & local materials is on similar lines to Professor Mori's approach when he was designing the original Nitobe Memorial Garden in Vancouver. Here's an extract from the Davidsonia magazine (Summer, 1970) -

"..........Professor Mori was quite content to use native British Columbia plant materials and other plants that are customarily used in our landscape. His opinion was that our forests are similar and we share with the Japanese people an appreciation of the broad-leaved evergreen shrubs, azaleas and flowering cherries. Retaining some of the natural forest would help to give immediate scale to the garden and an early sense of maturity. He realised too that our native Pines could be trained in the typical Japanese fashion, so there was no need to import them........... Trees and shrubs from local sources included Douglas Fir, Hemlock, Vine Maple, Huckleberry, Salal, False Box, Oregon Grape, Labrador Tea, Kinnickinick collected from various sections of this area."

The magazine also says -

"Stones for the garden were selected from various sections of the Lower Mainland: large and small, colorful rocks from near Harrison Lake for the waterfall and stream, stones with character from Brittania Beach for the Tea Garden and local boulders for the margin of the lake."

On the point about man and nature, and the blending in of subtle hints of man's influence or presence, I suggest that the very first example of it was the formation of paths resulting from people constantly walking along them. And I suggest that the second - the art of arranging plants in aesthetically pleasing ways - flowed, much later, from agriculture.

I suppose the question of when man's touch becomes more than a mere hint & turns into something that stands out like a sore thumb is a matter of degree? And of personal taste?

One thing that I don't like is the introduction into a garden of artifacts that have a known function, but have no function whatsoever in that particular garden. For example, I feel uneasy with the idea of having a Shishi Odoshi if a garden has no problems with deer. On the other hand, some artifacts have no known function at all & yet they may perhaps be acceptable, even in a Japanese style garden. I think pink plastic flamingos and chintzy statues of deer are absolutely out of place, but I'm nor so sure about the wood carving - cedar I think - in a garden just across the street from us. Do you think a Japanese-style garden could accommodate it without it seeming out of place?

Herb

Click to see it

O-ho! My first day of special training, I am set up in Sensei's home courtyard to begin on a pine tree his great grandfather samauri planted! How I longed for an ugly potted pine to make my blunders on. He would come and go to leave me to this dangerous experiment. Once, on a tea break, I sat on the stone step and admired a beautifully carved bear, less than a meter tall in its place of honor at the side of the garden. It was carved from a piece of wood so artfully chosen and worked, its very grain patterns matched the textures of the bears features perfectly!

In light of this personal experience - no matter how unusual it may turn out to be - I would say your carved bear would be welcome. It might be nicer if it was a bit smaller? : )

Don -

Yes the bear is rather imposing. On the other hand, were it any smaller, I'd never have been able to see it from the street!

Herb

I would have never seen the bear in Sensei's garden were the circumstances different. Details of a garden, secret until discovered, are a common delight of many garden styles, I think. I also believe that bears maybe shouldn't be seen from the street, eh?

Does your neighbor want you to see the bear so you will wonder what other surprises or treasures he may have to share? Have you looked? You know, I never asked about the bear in my teacher's garden. I should now.

"sensei" ? "samurai grandfather" ? It's all a little Japan-cheesey don't ya think? I can hardly "BEAR" it.

Don - No, I haven't looked, but you've made me think I should ask their permission to go into their garden to take some more pictures. Then they'll maybe tell me who carved it & when. I don't know if it's been treated with a preservative but I would hope so. H.

I read a review of a recently published book, "Japonisme", which talks about the way that Western artists from van Gogh through Manet to Whistler were influenced by Japanese art. We also know that FLW and James Rose were similarly smitten along with William morris and the arts and crafts movement. Where this fits into this discussion is the information about Rodin, a sculptor who studied Japanese art and how this shows in his work. Rodin did not sculp a lantern, although this would no doubt be a fine piece, but used shapes (forms) that he had seen on wood blocks, shapes that were quite different from those in use currently.
It seems to me that the way to get the feel of a Japanese garden is not to begin with a line up of the usual suspects but to visit and study and critique good examples to soak it up. The result is then more likely to come from the source rather than a derivation.

On the subject of using native plants and materials in a Japanese-inspired garden...

My interest in this stemmed from the realizations that 1) typical Japanese garden plants (especially bamboo) look exotic and foreign in a temperate North American site, and 2) Japanese garden plants don't look exotic in Japan because they are found both within and outside the gardens (in the wild). It led me to explore the idea that "the thing that makes the garden look Japanese" is not reliant on certain materials, especially not materials that look exotic in their context. In fact I think exotic-looking materials are antithetical to the feeling we are trying to create in a good Japanese garden.

Along these lines, there's a fascinating Arizona garden in the March 2004 issue of "The English Garden" on page 83 --- it's "..a formal garden in the English style but using natives of Tucson, Arizona, including agaves, aloes, cactuses and yuccas. Instead of grass, pink and grey gravel is used." It is surprisingly successful in conveying the sense of an English garden simply through the arrangement of its elements. By the same token, a typical English garden might look ridiculous in Arizona, surrounded by parched earth, rugged mountains, one-story houses and succulents.

Lee

P.S. I think Herb's bear is clearly up to something --- note his pensive expression and upturned chin. Maybe he's thinking of ways to escape from the garden :)

Chris74Robinson, I always worry when relating stories that happened in Japan. Seems some take it as an attempt to brag about experiences. Although I am not above that, this was an honest attempt to share a story with Herb about an unlikely carved bear in a special place.

Lee, do you think Herb's bear is doing what bears do in the woods? Anyway, I have had the conversation about local plants used in Japanese style gardens a couple of times. Both conversations led to the concensus that it would not be in the spirit of Japanese garden design to attempt to force plants to live in an unfriendly climate/environment. It would be more appropriate to use natives or adapted plant material to achieve the same design goals. I am guilty of both.

Lee -

Up to a point I incline to agree with your antipathy to exotic plants in a Japanese garden. Perhaps it amounts to feeling uneasy with anything that looks somehow out of place because few things of that shape grow in the wild here? For instance, I feel a bit uneasy if I see Phormium Tenax or Pampas grass. I'd probably feel even more uneasy with a Monkey Puzzle tree, especially since somebody who'd seen them growing in their native habitat in S. America said they looked out of place even there. On the other hand, a restrained use of bamboo doesn't (to me) give that feeling.

That brings me to what I'd call exotic artifacts. I wonder for instance, how a sleeve fence made from cedar lath compares with one made from bamboo? Here in N. America does the one made with cedar lath look more at home in its surroundings? I lean towards using the cedar lath.

Coming back to the Bear artifact, I've got some more pictures of it (of them actually - it's a mother Bear & her cub). The carving is rooted in the ground - the owners told me that it used to be a big tree in their garden, & when it got too big, they had the top removed, leaving an 8ft high stump - and a young fellow then carved the bears from it with a chain saw. They said he did it in no time. When I consider those stone foxes with a red bibs round their necks that you see in some Japanese garden settings, it makes me think of the Bears as their western equivalent (though the red bibs don't suit!).

Another artifact that I saw illustrated a year or two ago - I think it was in this forum - was a wooden post or tablet, carved in the style of Native Indian work, that somebody had positioned in his garden. He may have referred to it as a Stele, but I'm not sure. (It certainly wasn't what you'd call a Totem pole), It was in just the right place & it looked entirely at home - it was just as effective as a stone artifact like a lantern. Does anybody remember it?

Herb

Herb, the Japanese raccoon dog, or tanuki, isn't usually found inside Japanese gardens, but is really located near the entrance of the home or business as a sign of welcome and luck. He is also known for great male fortitude and magical talents. Sometimes it looks a bit like a small bear in its many versions. So it may be thought to be a courtyard ornament when it is probably meant to adorn just the entryway.

(but you knew this aready didnt you?)

I don't recall totem style posts.

No, Don I didn't know that. But I had tried pasting the bears into various Japanese garden pictures - and was surprised to get the feeling that they looked most at home alongside a roofed gate.

So maybe there's some kind of universal principle involved - as with the big stone Lions outside the main entrance to the Hongkong & Shanghai Bank in H.K.'s Central district?

Herb