Hi dvdNJ,

Zelkovas are notoriously fast growers in the growing season, however as you say it,s winter so it shouldn't really be growing much at present. But, the sort of tree you have bought, and where you bought it suggests it is mass produed, in which case the grower will not have been bothered about the tree's normal growing cycle, so the tree will have been forced to look good for Xmas. Having said that it doesn't mean the tree is not a nice one or will not be a successful bonsai. Indeed the fact that it is putting on a lot of growth, suggests it is healthy.
Pruning will be essential if the tree is to keep its shape, Zelkova's quickly look like they need a hair cut!! - shape being one of the key points of a good bonsai. Normally you would trim all shoots back to the 3rd bud (from the base of the shoot), but the bud needs to be pointing outwards, othertwise go to the second.
As it is growing at the moment treat it as though is it is the summer, watering regularly and feeding every 2 weeks, but it is essential to try to give it a lot of light but keep it out of cold or drafts. When it gets to Autumn (Fall) let the tree go into its normal annual cycle.
Best of luck,

Nick

Do NOT keep it out of cold drafts now, and Don't fertilize or water as much as you would in summer. Yes it's growing out of season, but that's because you gave it probably its first watering in a while, let alone some decent light. It should be in a very cool place (acclimated over a couple of wks if possible) anywhere above 40 F. this winter, as it won't do well indoors in central heat, etc. at all. Elms (1st cousins to Zelkova) and Zelkova are outdoor trees, and Nick is right about letting it take its normal course next fall. I would trim it if you want, so it doesn't look awful, but not that much, as it should be resting for the spring's real growth spurt.

Lucy and Nitrix both have good points but as far as the method you are going to use to shape your tree depends upon the patience you have and the methods you chose to follow. Some very ancient trees have been shaped for years, even centuries purely by pinching back the shoots in order to to encourage or discourage growth in certain locations of the tree, however this process is VERY time intensive and usually only reserved for those whose culture will allow their families to continue the work when they're gone--the more Zen Like or Ancient Philosophy you seem to be referring to. The other method is that suggested by both Lucy and Nitrix that of cutting back to certain buds along the branches in order to make the tree take on a more natural appearance. Also involved in this process is wiring, grafting, and major shaping of the tree a more modern approach to bonsai. Both have desirable aspects. Best Advice--go slow and dont make drastic decisions quickly--and let nature take its course (let the plant acclimate to its proper season)
Good Luck!

Thanks all for your advice--and if anyone knows of modern methods with all time traditions (e.g. a web site explaining that old Zen/Ancient philosophy that was handed down through the years) please pass it along! Thanks! (and if this mass-produced one does not make it, I am sure I will get a replacement that is 'authentic' next time---hey, if this bug bites too hard, I may just do it anyway--it is such a cute little thing!)

Zen and ancient philosophy have nothing to do with keeping bonsai. Sorry, ain't true, just a romantic notion. Bonsai requires horticultural and esthetic knowledge. "Zen" thoughts, whatever the heck those are, are nice, but won't keep your tree alive.

Learning the basics of watering, soil and pruning are all infinitely more vaulable in bonsai than "zen" thoughts.

Thanks, Mark--but I guess what I meant was that in many Asian cultures they have "rules" about things: never face your desk/bed towards a corner--and only use round columns--never square: signify 'sharp arrows'; never position your desk under a sprinkler head; finance dept is best if its on the 8th floor; no doors at the end of a corridor--lest the evil spirits can come in; your desk must never have your back facing northwest--lots of evil spirits come in from the NW. (I was a project manager for a company that did construction oversees--this is the kind of stuff you had to be mindful of) So my thought, Mark, is not so much in what ancient philosophy will keep it thriving---instead what I was interested in was if there were any traditions/preferences in the shaping of the bonsai....since I have to prune it anyway, why not follow old traditions; can't hurt to combine horticultural knowledge with traditional practices, right??

Mark
To deny the existence of the thoughts,culture, religion leading to the development of Bonsai is akin to saying you love music but dont care for its history or development. Yes the modern practice of Bonsai has come a long way with a lot of developments and new practices that have allowed people to have more success. However in almost every book I've read about bonsai almost everyone began with the history behind the practice, its development in the East, moving to Japan etc... I think that what dvdNJ is looking for is the why behind not the how. We can all agree that there are certain things that will or will not make a successful bonsai and will ultimately lead to success or failure, but the understanding and philosphy of why and how that affects the art is just as important as the physiological/scientifical aspect of the practice

"I guess what I meant was that in many Asian cultures they have "rules" about things: never face your desk/bed towards a corner--and only use round columns--never square: signify 'sharp arrows'; never position your desk under a sprinkler head; finance dept is best if its on the 8th floor; no doors at the end of a corridor--lest the evil spirits can come in; your desk must never have your back facing northwest--lots of evil spirits come in from the NW. ............"

Tee hee hee, I just chased a black cat off my porch. It ran right underneath the step ladder I had set up by the eave of the house so like a fool I followed right along. Damn that cat was fast. Never did catch him. Worst part is when I was walking back to my front door I stepped on a crack in the concrete sidewalk. I may not even BE here tomorrow. :) Now where did I leave that salt. I think I'm suppose to throw some over my right shoulder. :)

Tony

"To deny the existence of the thoughts,culture, religion leading to the development of Bonsai is akin to saying you love music but dont care for its history or development."

Horsehockey. I don't need to be Catholic to know how grow roses, not do I need to be Presbyterian to grow cucumbers. This line of thinking is romanticized, patronizing view of bonsai and its practice. Ask a Japanese bonsai grower about "Zen" values, or about the "spiritual"history of bonsai. You will most likely get a laugh. This stuff is only seen as important by Westerners. Westerners think bonsai is some kind of mysterious "Eastern" practice that's beyond their comprehension or understanding. It's not.

"Enlightenment" or God, or whatever, can be found through many things, including washing your car ;-). Thinking bonsai offers some kind of special access to some higher form of understanding is a nice thought, but not really accurate.

"can't hurt to combine horticultural knowledge with traditional practices, right??" Well, yeah, it can. "Traditional" practices have proven to be wrong, or misleading in bonsai. For instance, older bonsai texts say to use "loam" in the soil. There's no telling what "loam" is outside of Japan, or heck, even regionally in Japan. The loam you will get at a nursery in Ohio will probably be the worst stuff imaginable for growing plants in containers and will kill your tree.

Why stick with "traditional" techniques anyway? The Japanese don't. Techniques used by professional bonsai growers in Japan have developed well beyond superstition and stereotype. They use what works, and that includes power tools, strong "chemical" fertilizer, powerful insecticides, and wire. All these have been introduced within the last 100 years and have fueled a revolution in bonsai and design capabilities.

dvdNJ, here is a link to a bunch of bonsai topics. The one on 'Growth Principals' should answer some of your questions. As Mark pointed out, there is little or no mention of religion. I would bookmark the page and reread everything there, it's one of the best sites on the web.
Good luck,
zube

P.S. I've never seen horsehockey. But I have seen a fishbowl.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bonsai Articles - Evergreen Gardenworks

Mark,
Once again I think you missed my point. At no time did I say that the old values are the only ways or the better ways. I stated that to understand how bonsai came about helps you understand how to make a bonsai and not a potted tree.

The styles that we use to make a bonsai and how they are currently judged are based off of designs that happen because of nature--an inherent thought process that those from the Far East are more accustomed to. Can you deny that almost every major style is named from the Japanese language from a time in which their religion/culture played a major part. Chokkan, Moyogi, Tachiki, Shakan, Han-Kengai, Kengai, Zukuri, etc.. That without someone influenced by whatever reasons (culture, religion, enlightenment, etc..) taking the first steps in developing bonsai as an art we wouldn't even be having this conversation. How do you know what the GrandMasters from these areas are thinking, Have you sat down and actually talked to someone who was raised in this area and currently practices the art of bonsai. If so I would like to know who?

The fact that the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans et.. are using modern techniques to mass produce bonsai to sell to the western nations doesn't necessarily mean they dont follow the "traditional practices" to produce the ones they dont sell, who are we to know (unless you do LOL).

I'm not saying that they are laughing at us stupid westerners behind their hands at our uncouth practices of their art, that they have a better understanding of the magical, mysterious, mystical processes involved that you refer to as "superstition and spiritualism." Good Grief I'm trying to give advice to someone that wants to know a possible traditional approach to growing a bonsai, not trying to influence him to seek "enlightenment by washing his car"

What I am saying is that we now know due to scientific facts that certain process will make a better tree, that the use of chemical fertilizers rather than natural ones sometimes does work better, and that using commercial tools does make the whole process a lot easier.

This does not mean that it isn't important to know the history or "traditions" involved. "We cant know where we're going until we know where we've been."

And as far as "Horsehockey" I've heard of FieldHockey, Ice Hockey, Table Hockey etc.. but never horsehockey. Is that some form of Hockey Played with Horse Puckey up there in Virginia?

Alright, at the risk of being banned--Bulls---. What you're saying is one of the conceits that keeps bonsai a mere curiosity in the west --especially in the U.S. and not a "serious" art. The thought that there are some hidden mystical, reverential secrets in bonsai relegates it to the kitsch corner and clouds its real value. Bonsai is simply the observation and interpretation of nature by individuals, not some time-honored hoary, Zen Buddhist practice that can only be understood by those with some background in Asian history. It was developed in Asia and it comes with Asian cultural references, but the majority of the thought and feeling behind bonsai is universal appreciation of the natural. The thought that Asians have some superior "feeling" for nature is simply inaccurate at best and racist at worst.

Have I ever been exposed to Japanese culture? Yes, I worked for a Japanese corporation for five years. During that time, I learned that taking things too literally can lead to some misinterpretations. For instance, many horticultural references were used in day to day business. That doesn't mean the businesses were based on horticultural skills or that those skills were even given much thought. It means the terms were useful to describe a pertinent act IN BUSINESS. One term meant "preparing the ground" for planting, which was used to describe the preparations for a business deal. The Japanese do this all the time. Such references ARE NOT to be taken literally. The Japanese adapt English terms for their own applications all the time. The same was true with Chinese and other languages across the years. To make some literal jump that "kengai" has some mystical or religious sidemeaning that's pertinent to learning bonsai is silly. The word is useful and has meaning specific to bonsai.

Anyway, saying that religion is a key influence in society is stating the obvious. It's just one of many influences that has indirect impact on culture. I can argue that Protestants have had significant impact on Rose gardening and boxwood cultivation in England--and it would be true, but it wouldn't make it a primary, or even secondary, or even tertiary, influence on western gardening.

"The fact that the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans et.. are using modern techniques to mass produce bonsai to sell to the western nations doesn't necessarily mean they dont follow the "traditional practices" to produce the ones they dont sell, who are we to know (unless you do LOL). "

Uh, have you ever looked at a current bonsai publication? The techniuqes I'm talking about are far from the "mass production" of bonsai. Kimura's use of power tools to completely reverse a tree's top and bottom orientation is hardly "traditional." This kind of drastic treatment has revolutionized redesign and the way Japanese artists view bonsai material.

"Good Grief I'm trying to give advice to someone that wants to know a possible traditional approach to growing a bonsai, not trying to influence him to seek "enlightenment by washing his car"

There IS NO "traditional" approach to bonsai, at least not the mythical, centuries-old one that seems to be the ideal of some just getting involved with bonsai. .

Hi everybody,
Sounds like a really good conversation, but not everyone can be right. It would reall be a shame if we all continue in the only orientation that we ascribe to through the entire course of this thread, nothing will have been accomplished with all words spoken and no understanding would have been attained.

Gandolf, might I offer to you that this art form did not start with the Japanese. Bonsai the word is a modified version of the Chinese word "Pensai". Today we call it Penjing though. Although admittingly most modern Penjing artist have no problem giving credit to the Japanese for what the modern art Bonsai has become. I would offer to you that Bonsai would not have become what it is today if it had remained an exclusively Chinese art.

However the Chinese do have six or seven very distinct schools or styles for training trees. They are distict enough that Penjing artist in China can tell the region a tree is from by the way it is styled.

The Vietnamese call their art form Ho Non Bo. Although
I'm not as familiar with it as penjing. What I have seen of it is that they seem to really value a naturalist style without the emphasis on manipulation.

I don't mean to direct this exclusively at you. I don't know you well enough. But just because the Japanese have names for those styles so do we here in the west. We call them slanted, informal upright, upright, ect,ect...

I don't really know Mark well enough to speak for him either but I can only assume that he is refering to making the art your own. Just as the Japanese have done, and just as the Vietnamese have done.

It is ofcourse a blend of science and art, neither of which can belong to any one people. IMHO

To Mr Greengenes.

It was never my intention to say that there is only one way of things in the art of bonsai. It is an appreciation of nature. It is not a religion of mine nor has it ever been. I appreciate the art of bonsai in all its aspects, the new and the old. What I was trying to say to Mark and the original sender of the message was that appreciation comes in many forms when dealing with the art. It doesn't matter how young or old you are how long you've practiced it or how short. I am by no means traditional or if I was have broken all the rules and then some. However, I do have an appreciation for where the art came from, and as referenced that the art came from the east before moving to Japan. My original intention was to provide some guidance to someone new to the art--not direction or rules to follow that you must stand on one foot for an hour contemplating each cut, style, etc.. of your tree. If dvdNJ is looking for some higher meaning within bonsai that is his/her personal preference and it is none of my concern other than to point him/her in the possible direction he/she is seeking. What we are all trying to do is further the art of bonsai. Mark I don't know you and you don't know me if you are just interested in how things are done now that's fine; if I'm just interested in the old ways (which I'm not) that's fine as well. What is most important that we all practice the art for the reasons we first began them, an appreciation of a living art that we seek to bring to others so that they may understand a greater part of this world.
If we as a human race cannot learn to appreciate the views of others in something so small as the art of bonsai then we have no hope of ever understanding the major motivations of each culture on this earth. If I'm wrong in this assumption then I guess we can all agree on one thing "To Disagree"

I don't think I need to disagre with you. I think I more or less miss understood the fact that you were just answering a question with respect to how it asked. My apologies.
-Mrgreengenes

Gandalf, I would not want to discourage anyone from further study. However, if dvdNJ is looking for "some higher meaning within bonsai" he most probably will be disappointed. There isn't one. It is merely bonsai, no more, no less. 'Personal preference' cannot alter this.
Take care,
zube

To Mr Greengenes/Zube100.

I thank you for your response. I never meant to get testy with either of you or the original query dvdNJ. To quote a famous line from my namesake "Don't meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." However my testiness towards Mark remains unabated,
Mark's Statement,

"Why stick with "traditional" techniques anyway? The Japanese don't. Techniques used by professional bonsai growers in Japan have developed well beyond superstition and stereotype. They use what works, and that includes power tools, strong "chemical" fertilizer, powerful insecticides, and wire. All these have been introduced within the last 100 years and have fueled a revolution in bonsai and design capabilities."

A popular saying goes "If it Ain't Broke, Don't fix it.
Where did the radical paradigm shift take place from the old cultures use of traditional tools, methods, fertilizers, soil composition take place. If there was something wrong with the methods they used the artform would never have survived in the first place, and we would not be having this spirited discussion.

Why is a modern approach so superior if what worked before wasn't broken? I'm not abdicating that we should all do it the "Japanese" way, obviously different climatalogy, species availability, etc... Will affect the success of how someone is able to practice the art of Bonsai.
Certain allowances must be made and change is good.

But to quote Mark again,

"This line of thinking is romanticized, patronizing view of bonsai and its practice. Ask a Japanese bonsai grower about "Zen" values, or about the "spiritual"history of bonsai. You will most likely get a laugh. This stuff is only seen as important by Westerners. Westerners think bonsai is some kind of mysterious "Eastern" practice that's beyond their comprehension or understanding. It's not."

Furthermore, it seems that if you had worked for a Japanese corporation for five years you must have had blinders and earmuffs on. You seem to have picked up on some things and totally missed others. Mysticism, Zen-Buddhism, Naturism, have played and continue to play an important part in their culture.

Your Statement,
"The Japanese adapt English terms for their own applications all the time. The same was true with Chinese and other languages across the years. To make some literal jump that "kengai" has some mystical or religious sidemeaning that's pertinent to learning bonsai is silly. The word is useful and has meaning specific to bonsai.

At no time did I insinuate that the Japanese terminology such as "Kengai" hold any mystical meaning. What I was trying to illustrate was that our terminolgy and understanding of the art comes from our learning/translation/adaptation of another cultures art-form and their language hence Kengai=Formal/informal cascade style.

To borrow/steal anothers ideas is a form of piracy. To me it seems that you don't give credit where credit is due. You use the Japanese terminolgy and practice an artform derived not from the western world but that of the East, but don't credit them for influencing the styles we use.

Finally, you you accuse me (in so many words) of being racist. That's the pot calling the kettle black. The following two statements that you made seem to be racist to me.

In stating
"Bonsai is simply the observation and interpretation of nature by individuals, not some time-honored hoary, Zen Buddhist practice that can only be understood by those with some background in Asian history." The thought that Asians have some superior "feeling" for nature is simply inaccurate at best and racist at worst."

And again in your later statement of,

"What you're saying is one of the conceits that keeps bonsai a mere curiosity in the west --especially in the U.S. and not a "serious" art. The thought that there are some hidden mystical, reverential secrets in bonsai relegates it to the kitsch corner and clouds its real value."

The stance I've taken is an appreciation of where the art has come from, and sharing it in all its forms with the world.

Your whole stance/attitude seems to be that the lowly third world countries started something but we superior Westerners have perfected it and taught them to use our methods. This just demonstrates to me why it is
that America is so hated among so many cultures of the world. The term "Americanization" comes to mind. Cultures/peoples/countries across the world resent the fact that their younger counterparts give up on or quit practicing the old beliefs and adopt a "Western" attitude, just so they can be chic or fit in in the popularized way the "Modern/Western" world is.

If everyone adopts the same beliefs, attitudes, habits, etc.. the world will become a pretty boring place, and frankly one which I nor many others would want to continue to be a part of.

P.S.
If one cannot make a strong and reasonable argument without resorting to colorful language such as your use of
"Bulls---." and if one is " fearfull of certain repurcussions such as "at the risk of being banned" then maybe one should not post such language in the first place.
:-P

Feel Better?! :o)

Gandalf, out of curiosity, have you studied much of the history of bonsai? I'm also curious what knowledge you have of current worldwide practices in the world of bonsai? In all seriousness. You are living in the middle of the 'third world' capital of the planet, as far as the art of bonsai is concerned. Globally, and with few exceptions, nobody does it as badly. But we continue to romanticize the process, all the while patting ourselves on the back and repeating to ourselves what great artists we are. Because that's what our kindergarten teacher told us. If a person doesn't understand the basic mechanics of the process (pruning, in this case), art will help very little. Religion even less.
zube

Sorry Greengenes/zube/dvdnj

Read my last reply and it was a bit long-winded. However I took exception to some of Mark's comments and had to reply in kind.
In answer to your query,

I agree with your point on us being the third-world equivalent of bonsai, just look at the success the western world had with bonsai up until around the mid 20th century directly after world war II, up until this time it was a curiosity and met limited success. Only those of Affluent means such as nobility (King Edward VII of England) or those well traveled had any kind of collection nor did the masses know anything at all about the art. The first exhibition known to contain a bonsai was that of The Third Universal Exhibition in Paris 1878.
I'm not trying to romanticize the process or make it intimidating to those new to it (myself included) I'm just trying to give credit to the true experts in the field, those in the Eastern World who created and perfected it. Your advice in knowing the basics is also extremely important and one which I have never argued about. If the basics are not followed the speciment will not survive. I have discovered this on my own through trial and error. I have had several mistakes and still consider myself an amateur. I don't follow the religions of the East and not saying that if you are you will have more success.
My only argument is one which you seem to agree with on that we of the western world, having been affiliated with the art of bonsai for at best only 100 years, seem to take the attitude that we are superior in all things including an art form that originated in China by around at least 706 A.D. (the tomb of Zhang Huai, Tang Dynasty, depicts two Penjing accompaning him to his tomb) We are truly all amateurs here in the west when compared to a culture that has been practicing the art for at least 1300 years. As far as my knowledge of the art of bonsai I'm not an expert either, I am a historian in all things and happen to have written a paper for college about Japanese history, one part of which dealt with the history of bonsai.

While the earliest Chinese iterations of bonsai, may have had, at their heart a reverence of the spirits that were thought to reside in old trees, times have changed thankfully. Yes, the Japanese have always had a naturistic appreciation, as they have always had a capacity to copy the Chinese, so it is little wonder that they developed bonsai in a different direction. However, this development had little to do with Shinto, Buddhism or any other belief-system, I would argue. It has everything to do with the Japanese artistic sensibility, which always seems to prefer the minimalist to the grandiose.

New techniques for training trees developed as that is the nature of man - we strive to innovate, to make small steps forward all the time. If dvdNJ wants to train his tree utilising twine and stones, and plant it in dirt from the garden, that is his choice. Pretending that this is either the way things work in the mystical east today, or that such practices will lead to some form of enlightenment (other than that it is not the easiest way to proceed) is misleading at best and perpetuates dangerous and incorrect myths about what we are all striving for. Pandering to people who are labouring under the misapprehension that bonsai is a way of life, or nature-worship, is not what we should encourage. Mark quite rightly pointed that out originally.

Regards,

Fish.

Gandalf,

You missed the point. What I am geting at is to be true to the spirit of bonsai a progression is needed BEYOND thanking the Japanese/Chinese for their cultural "gift" to us. If we are to really practice bonsai, as the Japanese do, we have to stop the "hero" worship and get on with it. Of course the Japanese (Chinese, Koreans, South Asians, etc.) are due credit and honor for developing bonsai. The cultural debt is a deep one.

However, retaining "the Japanese do it better" inferiority complex won't help us in the least. Bonsai is a dying art in its homeland(s). It's known as an old man's passtime in Japan by and large. The cultural revolution in China pretty much squelched it there. Things are changing in both places. The market for bad mass produced mallsai in Japan is a fast growing one--so much for tradition. China is struggling to emerge as a world power and is struggling with traditions as well.

Bonsai's primary driver in the coming decades will be the West and I'm not being an insensitive cultural barbarian. This thought isn't mine. It's been voiced by more than a few Chinese and Japanese bonsai people. Check out this thought in books like Wee Yu Sun's Artistic Potted Plants, or in the statements of more than a couple of Japanese artists over the last few decades.

"The term "Americanization" comes to mind. Cultures/peoples/countries across the world resent the fact that their younger counterparts give up on or quit practicing the old beliefs and adopt a "Western" attitude, just so they can be chic or fit in in the popularized way the "Modern/Western" world is."

And please stop with the "big bad America" rap. It's quite a tiresome, lazy argument and doesn't apply to Japan in the least. Japan has long been in the "first world" and on the cutting edge of modern technology for quite some time. That's pretty apparent to anyone with a television or a computer.

However, in becoming that modern economic power, the Japanese are losing alot of traditions. The country is undergoing a tremendous population shift and dropping traditions right and left. Bonsai is one of those arts. What I am arguing is not to be trapped into thinking that we in the West have nothing to offer bonsai. We do. In fact, we may become its principle repository as Japan's culture continues to change.

For what it's worth, you might do some more detailed research on the history of bonsai. The long 1,300 year history you've cited is misleading. There is a huge difference in what was done in China a millenium ago and what the Japanese are doing now. The Chinese collected trees and plunked them into containers without altering them. A majority of the meticulously groomed award winning Japanese bonsai that one sees now in shows and in books have been bonsai for only a short 100 years or less--which is the rough time frame in which bonsai took firm root as a popular passtime in Japan. The gulf between the original Chinese animism, tree spirit container plant and the primped, wire-groomed, power tool-carved Japanese bonsai today is a pretty huge one. I think there may be a thesis in how modern power tools and modern manufacturing capabilities (wire, tools, etc) have dramatically influenced the advancement of bonsai...

"Why is a modern approach so superior if what worked before wasn't broken? I'm not abdicating that we should all do it the "Japanese" way, obviously different climatalogy, species availability, etc... Will affect the success of how someone is able to practice the art of Bonsai.
Certain allowances must be made and change is good."

I find this statement rather curious..."Change is good" but "why fix it if it ain't broken?" would seem to be a recipe for slow, or even retrograde, development. Modern advancements, like it or not, have "fixed" what's not "broken" for some time and thank God for that. "Natural" for all its earthy-crunchy goodness, can be also range from horrific to irritating.

Change is the only constant in life. Not change for change's sake, but improvement and adaptation. This is true for bonsai, as for everything else. There would have been no "perfection" of Japanese bonsai without the introduction of wire and readily available, high tensile steel tools, etc. There would be no rapid development of foiliage without "chemical" fertilizer. Yeah, those fertilizer balls the Japanese use aren't just horse manure. If you use Bio-gold or Green King fertilizers imported from Japan, you will note the "unnatural" ingredients in them.

Peace to all,

I appreciate all the viewpoints that have been expressed here and honored to have seen posts from some of the best known(respected, Emperor/Mark etc..) patrons of this forum.

My only original intention was to possibly give direction (which I can't say is the right one) to someone seeking some kind of meaining in his or her choice to practice the "art". None of us here know the motivations for dvdNJ his/her statements seem to lean in the direction of Feng Shui or the why behind the how. I am not defending his/her interpretation of bonsai being mystical, just trying to put it into perspective for him/her as to the why the art developed.

I consider myself a historian in many things and often read up on the different sources that are availabe on many different hobbies, facisinations, etc... If my sources are flawed I appreciate those who point out such flaws. Historians in general often argue minute points about all sorts of things. I didn't take the time to fully explain historical points as I see them, because to do so would be misleading at worst, and boring at best (not to mention the apparent word limit everyone talks about).

Whether some ancient Chinese Philosopher sought enlightnement by bringing a piece of living art into his or her home, a medicinal expert found it easier to grow rare plants/trees in a pot than going out and looking for them, or someone just thought it was neat and it caught on.

My only intention was to give possible direction to someone interested in the art. If as you all say we are going to salvage the art from its original roots where it may or may not be dying (which I would agree by in large parts it is).

If the art is to survive and not be relagated to the kitsch corner we must embrace others viewpoints and interests in the art not shoot them down and discourage them in their initial beliefs (albeit somewhat incorrect ones).

Whatever reasons someone chooses to do Bonsai, eventually they will come to find that in order to succeed with the art they will have to follow the direction that we all do now (the modern/scientific practice) of what works.

My goal is to bring an appreciation of the art to others not just the history but also the modern practices, so that others will take up where we left off and make the art their own. If we can't do this, then ultimately what we all fear will be the loss of a very beautiful and meaningful artform.

Thank you, Gandalf_75---you DO understand where I was coming from. I guess I was surprised that coming from a "Bonsai-only" forum that more would not be of that like-mind (there I go with that "romantic notion" again---oops! :-) But I certainly appreciate the others' view points--it makes this world as diverse as it is, and that's a good thing. Thank you everyone---I enjoyed the lively conversation....and learned a lot too!

dvdNJ,
The rest of us understood where you were coming from too. And are glad to answer any questions you may have to the best of our abilities. 'Perception' can be a funny thing when there is little or no real knowledge to base it on. The 'like-mind' that you have an image of (zen, feng-shui, etc.) doesn't really exist in bonsai. However, there are other qualities that are universally essential to bonsai worldwide. It certainly is a subject worth your study.
Good luck,
zube

dvdNJ , we weren't making fun of YOU. It's just that this question has come up so many times through the years that we all kind of snicker at it. You;ve been given some good advice on this thread. Growing good bonsai has nothing to do with cultural superstitions, whether that be Chinese, Japanese or American. Growing good bonsai has to do with knowing when to apply the correct stimulus to the tree to bring about the correct responses so that you can coax it into the design that you have envisioned. All of this has to do with the particular species and climate that the tree is being grown in.

I've done a cursory reading of the history of bonsai but that's all I need. There is nothing there that will help you grow better bonsai. It is really all in our hands and what we do with it. I want to know how to grow good bonsai in my backyard today, not whether spirits come from the northwest or that the finance centers should be on the 8th floor, [you really don't believe that stuff do you] ?

Mark is right about the changing status symbols in Japan and China. In Japan you have status if you have a membership at the ritzy golf country club. Having a bonsai collection is kind of old hat. China is another story. Many are still riding bicycles there. Their status symbol is having a new SUV and the income to pay for the gas to run it. There is around a billion people there that have that ambition. That should give you an idea of where oil/gas prices are going.

So, the moral of this story is to not pay much attention to the spirits but pay attention to the tree and how you can bring about the design that you want. And also pick out a few junior international oil companies with growing reserves year after year. Just so you can afford to put gas in your own SUV. :)

Tony

DvdNJ,

I was certainly not trying to intimidate you or Gandalf, but may have done so anyway ;-) If that's true, I apologize.

For what it's worth, the "spirit" of bonsai you're searching for doesn't lie in Chinese or Japanese superstition or any "Ancient Chinese Secret." It lies in your heart and mind. The "bonsai spirit" is one that allows you to see and interpret nature in your own way, through your own hands. Hopefully, in doing so, you will also provide others with the same or similar vision.

Bonsait spirit is also the spirit of "do unto others" and peace. Yeah, I know, I'm not always much on this part of things, but the majority of bonsaiists are ;-). Ask them and they will rush to help you asking for nothing in return.

This spirit isn't an ancient cultural thing. It's a human thing. It is a living, breathing understanding that bonsai folks hold in their hearts. It requires no knowledge of Feng shi or Zen Buddism to practice...

Bored with this now! Haven't read the final points but here's my 10 penneth:
Growing bonsai is about correct horticultural practice - or they die. Methods used these days are quick and can produce good trees easily. The history of bonsai is fascinating, and undersatnding it can help an individual's enjoyment of the hobby. Growing by clip and grow may give someone intence satisfaction and may help them feel part of the culture, it may give them a 'Zen' feeling. Anyway did that answer your question dvd?

does anyone know where i could find Japanese zelkova flower and seed pictures?