We have evaluated the some of the benefits and construction issues of the pipe proposal. Now I would suggest advertaddy investigate the possibility of surface drainage. Some reasonably accurate elevation data will be needed to prove the viability. To do what I propose, he will need some materials; a few 2ft stakes, a nylon string line, and a string level. A string level is not a precision instrument and I am not fond of their use where accuracy is needed. But for short distances, and for this case particularly, I think the careful use of a string level will be sufficient. Rather than collect useful data over the whole of the project area, this preliminary study will be concentrated on only the critical grade points. In the graphic above I show the location of a string line that can be used to gather the information needed. Begin at point C by locating a space between fence boards that aligns with the back 6 inches of the patio. At the space between boards drive a wood screw about 1ft above ground level. Tie on a string line and stretch it out toward point B. Select a location for a stake at point "B such that the string passes over the patio near the back edge and also aligns with the jog in the house as shown. Attach the string level at the mid point between B and C. Stretch the string tight and tie to stake B with a loop. Adjust the string height at stake B so that the string level indicates the string is level. Install stakes at A and D. Extend string lines to the end stakes in a like manner with all lines at the same level. Measure the horizontal distance for each line segment. Begin at stake A. Measure the ground to string distance. Move 5 ft down the line toward B and take another measurement. Continue this process until you are near B. Begin anew at B and start the 5 ft intervals from there. Do the same at C and make a last measurement at D Record the measurements in this fashion A-? +5-? +10-? B-? +5 -? +10 -? +15 -? To correct the details of the base map, take measurements as shown in blue.

I certainly hope you don't plan on ever selling that house. If a sharp eyed inspector sees the line configured like that or the pipe in the crawl space just resting on the ground without code approved supports they will list your plumbing as not conforming to code and it could be a real sticking point with the future buyer or a lending institute. Code prohibits using a vertical section of pipe as a support for a horizontal line. PVC pipe is required to have a support hanger within one foot of a major change in direction and at least one ever four linear feet. The hangers are required to be made of plastic or you may use plastic perf strapping. Metal or wire hangers are strictly prohibited.

Buehl, thank you so much for doing that alternate layout for me. It really helps to see it. I actually really like the way it looks (although I might move the wine tower to the south wall or ditch it). It allows the less attractive range and ovens to be out of the direct sightline and lets me have the back wall full of tall cabinets and appliances like in my first design. The funny thing is, as much as I like it aesthetically, it might not work as well for us. I expect the aisle between the north wall and the island will be a prime traffic area, especially if kids and guests have to walk to the far east end of the kitchen, past the range, to get drinks from the fridge. The east wall is probably a more protected spot for cooking at the range, and keeping the ovens in the southeast corner means they will not open into the middle of a major traffic path. Cheril27, my preference is to stand on the north side of the island while prepping, so I am facing south, but can easily look west into the other room. The sink may actually force me to work on the south side of the island where there is a longer, unbroken expanse of counter. I know GWers really like prep sinks, and I can see it being useful occasionally, but I also see it being in my way a lot, which is why I wanted to tuck it into a corner. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by moving the sink to the middle of the island. Do you mean moving it further down the north side, like where I show the trash pullout or drawers, or move it the center of the shorter east end? I figured having the prep sink on the south side of the island across from the big sink would be pointless, since the 2 sinks would not be very spaced out then. I do occasionally look for Gagg ovens on ebay. I noticed several GWers comment in other posts that the Gagg warranties do not start until install, but MIL was told by the person who handles sales of BSH appliances to employees that the warranties for Gagg, Thermador and Bosch start running when they are delivered to us, even if they sit in the garage for 5 months waiting to be installed. Thanks for reminding me about the 18" wine towers. I originally wanted one to the far right of the sink, since it would be very convenient to the dining room, but DH hates the idea of a 24" deep tall appliance in that spot. If he is standing at the clean-up sink, he does not want a "big, hulking thing" right next to him and blocking the view into the next room (never mind that there is a support wall there anyway). Sandn, what kind of prep sink do you have and where did you buy it? Breezygirl, I appreciate the feedback because it makes me think. Right now, I cook a few meals on weekends, and re-heat leftovers or take out on work nights. We do want to start cooking more though. It is funny to me how many times I have been told the prep spaces in my various plans are small, because to us, they are huge compared to what we have worked with the past decade. I do want to get things right with this kitchen though, as I hope we are in this house for many, many years. DH is so upset with me that I can't just pick one of the many design possibilities we have discussed and just stick with it. He tells me it will never be perfect (because I can't fit what I really want in our space) and I should just be happy with 85% perfect and move on with my life. We have always made whatever kitchen we have work, so he doesn't get why I am stressing over the best possible layout (despite the large amount of $ it will cost and the fact that we plan to live here for 20+ years). DH is really pressuring me to go with the revised design I posted yesterday and not make any more changes, even little ones that don't affect our appliance order like swapping the DW position. He is getting very upset with me for re-visiting design decisions that he considers have already been made. He thinks I am flooding our unborn child with negative stress hormones because of this remodel and agonizing over decisions. He said this morning we should either go with the design I already have (no more changes) or put a complete moratorium on kitchen design (i.e., I can't shop, discuss, or even think about (LOL) the kitchen) for at least 5 months. Of course, if we delay, we lose the 40% discount on appliances. Like I am not stressed out enough without ultimatums. The kitchen design started out as a fun research project and has just become a miserable task. The custom cabinet guy called me yesterday afternoon to see if he could pick up some magazine pictures I had mentioned and to see if I have made any decisions. At the time, I was feeling pretty good about my design (with the changes to the island) so I agreed to meet with him today (in about 1 hour). He will give me 3-D color renderings of my design and a quote for the cabinetry. If I keep making changes, he will also think I am nuts. The last kitchen design we did with him was much easier. It was a smaller kitchen with a decent layout, so we decided not to move the appliances more than a few inches to save costs. I did one sketch of the cabinets showing exactly how wide and tall I wanted everything, and that was it. Having a blank slate is so much harder.

Glad to help. While you're checking out costs for swapping out that window for a counter-height one, ask about costs to move it to the right. If you can afford to do that, then here's another lay-out option for you: I moved the 24" pantry to the wall across from the fridge, which is now on the other side of the DR wall (understandable reason for wanting to keep the wall there). The sink and DW are bounded by 36" corner Susans. The MW is to the right of the sink, near pantry so it can be a snack zone area but also close enough to be used by the cook. I estimate that this plan gives you 159" of counter (still guessing on span of bottom wall) and lots of storage. This plan gives you more but it also costs more than the other ideas. You say you're moving the kitchen from it's current location. I'm curious why you're choosing to do this instead of trying to make the kitchen work in its existing space. Would you be willing to post your first floor plan? Perhaps we can help you see alternatives for your existing space that will give you a better kitchen that meets your goals for less cost.