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kaysd_gw

I am back with a new design - feedback please

13 years ago

This is my second attempt to post a layout. I received a good amount of feedback here regarding my first plan, with the primary concerns being the cooktop on the island and not enough counter space. I have attempted a new design to address those concerns, and would love feedback on the new plan, please.

My plans are hand drawn, so I am going to give an explanation of each wall in case the drawings are hard to interpret. Please forgive me for repeating general information from my 1st post for those that might not have seen it.

General Notes:

1. The west end of the kitchen currently has a wall dividing the kitchen from the combination living and dining room, which is approximately 18' wide x 33' long. We plan to open up a section of that wall approximately 8' high x 12' wide to open the flow between the living areas. The current kitchen feels so dark and closed off. When we are cooking, we want to be able to watch the kids playing in the living room and enjoy the views from the living and dining room windows. There are ocean views to the west and ocean and bay views to the south. The dining room table and china cabinet will be near the kitchen, and the living room furniture is at the west end of the great room.

2. The kitchen currently has a small family room at its east end. We plan to put up a wall to turn that into a small guest room. Our architect drew up preliminary sketches with a kitchen depth (east-west) of 15' and kitchen width of approximately 14' (north-south). 15' is the maximum depth as the bedroom on the other side of the new east wall cannot be made any smaller; the kitchen depth could be less than 15'.

3. The main hallway of the house is on the other side of the north wall of the kitchen. There is a 46" wide space (including walls) between the kitchen wall and the hallway wall, which currently houses the wall ovens and a poorly designed walk-in pantry. Our intent is to widen that area to 51" (by taking 5" from the kitchen, versus the 9" the architect wanted to take), and having a reach-in pantry, the refrigerator and freezer on the kitchen side. From the hall side, there would be 9'8" long by 20-22" deep closet that would be divided (using something like Elfa) into storage for the vacuum, mop, cleaning supplies, ironing board, table leaf, linens, extra toiletries, paper goods, extra bulk food storage (if necessary), hanging clothes (if deep enough), etc.

4. The kitchen window cannot be moved due to costs and the view. The garden-style kitchen window has a view of the water and downtown skyline. If the window were moved east to center it on the south wall of the kitchen, the view would be blocked by the neighbor's house.

5. The house is a 1960 California ranch style with some modern lines, such as large horizontal windows and vaulted ceilings with wood beams and wood tongue and groove paneling between beams. Our living and dining room furniture is more traditional, so the kitchen needs to blend those styles. We plan to use walnut cabinets with modern lines. We plan to break up the potential "dark and heavy" feel of the walnut by using frosted glass panels in the upper cabinets and some of the tall cabinets, stainless steel appliances, and perhaps metallic accents on the crown moldings and/or toe kicks.

6. I am 5'10" and DH is 6' tall.

7. We have a two-year-old child and a second on the way, so some upper cabinet storage for dishes and other breakables is essential. I love the look of kitchens with no uppers, but do not think it will work for us.

8. All tall cabinets and upper cabinets will be approximately 8' tall with moldings.

Cabinet and Appliance Notes for Specific Walls:

East wall:

This wall faces the living and dining areas, and because of that high visibility, I would like this wall to be as symmetrical as possible. I got rid of the island cooktop and instead want to center a 30" Thermador gas range and a 36" hood on this wall. The far left end of this wall has a 24" Thermador Freedom wine column, and the far right end has a 24" appliance and storage column with 2 small stacked ovens (combi-steam and microwave/speed oven) with vertical tray storage above and drawers below. There is room for a 29" cabinet of drawers (to hold cooking utensils, pot holders, pots and pans) on each side of the range.

We are undecided about what to put on each side of the hood. We could have standard uppers of up to 26" wide, although we do not necessarily need more uppers as the ones on the south wall should be sufficient to hold all our dishes and glassware. We could do open shelves part or all of hte way across. We could do 15-18" quarter round shelves next to the appliance columns to transitional from the 25" deep columns to the backsplash. We also could just leave this wall space open. If we do not have cabinets or shelves that go all the way across to the hood, it may be tricky to decide where to end the backsplash.

I think this wall is the most functional spot for the wall ovens, since they have landing space immediately adjacent (the other option is the north wall), but I am concerned about the aesthetics. The combi-steam oven will be either Gaggenau or Thermador, but the speed oven will be Miele, since it is the only 24" option in the US (unless I can import a 24" Gagg combi-microwave from the UK). I am concerned about having mis-matched ovens on the most visible wall of the kitchen.

As shown in the sketches, we plan to add a 27" x 27" vertical "column" (made of drywall) to fill in the southeast corner of the room. This would allow a tall, 24" deep oven cabinet on the far right of the east wall and standard uppers and lowers on the adjacent south wall, without an odd intersection. With the corner "column," there is 12' of space on this wall; including the corner is 14' 3"

South wall:

This wall remains the same as in my original post. The garden window is 71" wide. We plan to use a single bowl sink, approximately 30-34" wide, centered under the window. The lower cabinets would be in walnut with a mix of doors and drawers. The dishwasher needs to be on this run. We are trying to decide whether to use a stainless steel dishwasher panel to break up the walnut, or use a custom panel that blends in. The upper cabinets will have frosted glass fronts with walnut frames. This wall is 12' 9" with the corner column; 15' without.

North wall:

There is an approximately 9' 8" long section of recessed wall space available. We would place a 30" Thermador Freedom freezer column at the far left and a 30" refrigerator column at the far right, with stainless steel panels to contrast with the walnut. There would be 2" wide walnut trim to the left and right of each appliance to frame the SS. In between would be a 4' wide x 24" deep reach-in pantry cabinet with 2 doors. The shelves would be 16-18" deep, with additional storage on the backs of the doors.

Island:

The size shown is 4' x 8' 6". It could be slightly bigger, but I do not think we need any more counter or drawer space than what this gives us. The island will be our main prep space. We would like seating for at least 2 people. We are considering bow front drawers at each end of the island, but may have to go simpler depending on the bid.

We are open to other island shapes that might work better, but prefer the island all at one height.

Overview of plan:

East wall:

South wall:

North wall:

Interior of pantry cabinet:

Bow front island:

Link to my original plan: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg031908572391.html

Comments (24)

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here are a few more pictures.

    Current kitchen:

    Current house floor plan:

    Dining and living room the kitchen will open into:

    Style of dining room furniture:

    I am attaching a link to a kitchen that uses the corner column idea I tried to describe.

    Here is a link that might be useful: [Corner column[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-contemporary-kitchen-boston-phvw-vp~73688)

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kaysd,
    You certainly have the luxury of space! What worries me most is the long walk from your range to your sink-- especially since you mention that you'll have children in the house. I wonder whether you'd want to carry a pot of boiling water so far to drain a pot of pasta or potatoes. Could you plumb in another sink close to the range--possibly on your island, or even on the range wall if you could find another place for your wall ovens? I realize you have a certain symmetry with your columns of wine cellar and wall ovens, but have you considered a short wine refrigerator so you could increase your counter space? You probably have room for a larger one or even a small cellar elsewhere. If you then moved your wall ovens to the already asymmetrical south wall beside the dw you could have a huge expanse of counter space along your range wall with a sink where the wall ovens are now.
    We've just moved in to our still incomplete kitchen and the thing I appreciate the most is the relatively compact prep area we designed, including a second small sink.
    All that said, I think you're on your way to a beautiful space.

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    Glad to see you are still plugging away at your design! I was wondering how it was going. Could you clarify where you eat most of your meals, since I'm confused on that point? I'm concerned that the cockpit cleanup area would frustrate you over the long haul. Remember that not only will you be cleaning things up there, but once they are clean, you will also have to put things away from inside the tight U. And sometimes, things will need to be rescued for use again, because although you or one of your helpers thought you were done with them, you weren't. This happens often at our house, where we retrieve measuring spoons, scrapers, etc that get ferreted into the dishwasher (I have one dd in particular who can sometimes be a little too "efficient" lol) and then have to be brought out to use again. For your kitchen this means extra steps around the wing of the U that's blocking the direct path from the cooking side to the cleanup area. Also, it's nice to be able to step away from the stove, do a little cleanup, and then step back to do a little stirring, a bit of taste testing, a little seasoning, and then back to washing a few more items. Again, that wing will make this more difficult. In regards to the laundry location, I've gotten to experience several different laundry locations while homeschooling in the multiple houses where we've lived. It's nice to have the laundry on the first floor since it's easy to switch loads, but overall, I prefer the laundry to be on the same floor as the bedrooms. I wearied of the constant parade of laundry baskets that had to go up and down each day when the bedrooms were upstairs and the laundry was on the first floor. It's really nice to not have the laundry in our main living space. If someone gets a little behind in their folding, at least it's out of sight upstairs and not piling up outside the laundry room where we need to walk through all the time, or where guests are coming in and out. Especially if you are doing school in the second floor, this seems like the ideal location for laundry, since you are already up there and could switch the loads very easily without having to traipse downstairs to do so. Benjes plan is pretty slick. Can you envision your table in the center where your kitchen is now, or does that seem like too much of a loss? That kitchen looks like a dream to work in, especially if you added a prep sink to the peninsula. It reminds me of another reveal, so I'll try to find the link. In the mean time, pre Reno, you could try defrosting your meat in a bowl on the counter. This is what we've been doing, and it works well, no tying up the sink required. I put mine in warm water. I suppose the germ police could get me, but none of us have gotten sick in the years we've been doing it this way. ETA: kitchen Reveal. Not an exact match mind you, but it has a few similarities to Benjes' plan. And one more kitchen is like just one more potato chip, right?
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  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow. I love your view! I think this only a slight improvement over the first design. Here are some important things to still consider.


    1. With the curved island ends you will be prepping in a rather small space (compared to your kitchen size) and with your back to your family and wonderful views.

    2. You will have to walk around the island to access the fridge from the sink, which will probably become annoying.

    3. Your trash pullout is very far from where you need it most (near your prep space).

    4. Why the 18" cabinet between the sink and DW? That's a pretty big distance to cover with dripping dishes and hands.

    Since you are worried you won't like the look of the ovens facing the DR, have you thought about putting them on the adjacent wall (sink run). If you move the DW next to the sink, you'll still have a nice amount of counter space there. It will also open up more useful prep space next to the range (though your back will still be to your family/view).

    If you dropped the freezer down to 24", you could have the wine fridge and freezer flanking the pantry, keeping the aesthetic you want but enabling you to more the 30" fridge to the range wall where it's better accessed for cooking. Without the ovens there, the range can get moved to the center of the open run.

    Are you sure you want to give up seating for four at your island?. You could have it the way you originally did with two seats at the end and two on the side. Then you can get rid of the curved ends so you can prep on the end and face your family, friends etc.

    The kitchen design above is very pleasing to the eye with it's symmetry and the materials you picked, but it's not as functional as it should be given its size. Sorry to sound so negative.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sandn, thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, we do not have room for wine storage outside of the kitchen. We do not have a basement and our garage is stuffed full (and too hot most of the year). In our last house, we had a 42 bottle undercounter unit in the kitchen and a freestanding 42 bottle unit in the large walk-in pantry, but, alas, there is no room for a walk-in pantry in the new house. We need 80-100 bottle capacity, so I either need 1 tall tower or 2 UC units.

    I also am not crazy about the distance from the stove to the sink. In my original plan, I had the cooktop on the island so it was 4' from the sink, but GW'ers didn't like that plan. I mentioned the idea of an island prep sink to DH, and he thinks I am crazy to want to spend the extra money on plumbing and give up storage space to add a second sink a few feet away from the 1st just to save a few steps. It does not help that no one we know IRL (including a few really great cooks) has more than 1 sink in their kitchen.

    Cheril27, thanks for the feedback. Let me try to answer your questions.

    1. The curved island ends may go, for both cost and practicality reasons. I actually thought of the end solely for storage and planned to do prep work on the long sides of the island, either with my back to the sink, or, preferably, seated at one of the stools. I like to sit for a lot of prep work, and the stools will have a great view.

    2. I am a bit worried about that too. DH thinks it is silly because nothing is more than 12' apart in the plan and he thinks it is lazy to worry about a few extra steps, especially since we both need more exercise.

    3. I have always had my trash pullout next to my sink and DW, as that is where I need it most. I scrape the dirty dishes into the trash and then put them into the DW (no rinsing). For prep, I keep an empty bowl next to me and put vegetable peelings, egg shells, etc, in there while I work, then toss the whole thing into the trash. It would cost too much cabinet storage space to have trash next to the sink and in the island.

    4. I put the 18" lower to the left of the sink cabinet to keep symmetry with the trash pullout on the right. The dirty dishes will land to the left of the sink, so I can stand in front of the 18" cab to load the DW. As mentioned above, I do not rinse dishes in the sink before putting in the DW, so no worries about dripping dishes and hands. I will consider moving the DW over next to the sink cab, but am afraid I will hate the asymmetry under the 6' window.

    I did originally want seating for 4 at the island, but then started to wonder if that was silly because the dining room table will be about 4-6' away from the end of the island (I cannot move the table any further into the living room zone). I am worried about having bar stools at the end of the island so close to the dining room chairs - it might be a tight squeeze with only a few feet between them. With that said, I am considering going back to something like my original island plan, minus the cooktop. I could make the island shorter so the stools stay within the kitchen and do not encroach into the dining room, especially since there will probably be a flooring transition between the 2 rooms.

    When I drew up the second plan, I was considering an alternative that had a 24" freezer and 24" wine column flanking a 5' pantry on the north wall (with the wine on the west end near the dining room). The 30" fridge would move to where the wine column is on the east wall, and I could have the 30" Advantium I prefer in a 30" oven stack on the right of that wall instead of using the smaller 24" ovens. It would put the fridge a little closer to the cooking and sink zones. The downsides to that plan are (1) the fridge would open across the doorway from the hall to the kitchen (the fridge gets opened a lot more than the wine fridge) and (2) the counters and cabinets on each side of the range would shrink to 23". I can make the 23" work, but DH is nervous the range will feel closed in with 24" deep tall cabs within 2' of the range.

    I am considering the suggestion you both made to move the wall ovens to the sink wall. I am trying to decide if I can handle having the east and south walls both be completely asymmetrical, with deep tall cabinets at one end and shallow uppers at the other end. I also really wanted the range and hood centered with the opening from the living room. I am sure that most people think I am nuts to want everything as symmetrical as possible, but I notice that the designs I am most drawn to in magazines and online are the ones that have the greatest symmetry - it is simply what my eyes find to be the most pleasing.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're giving up a lot of function for symmetry and aesthetics. Keep in mind that most of the kitchens designs you see in magazines are not terribly focused on function, either. Decorating mags do the same thing. There are plenty of beautiful rooms but much about them is impractical. Taking too many steps while trying to run after kids, supervise homework and get dinner on the table is no fun. Walking around that island every time you need to access the fridge from the prep area or sink will get annoying. Of course, you can adjust and learn to live with it, but why not take the opportunity to design a work space that is as close to perfect as possible?

    I know DH doesn't want a prep sink (he really doesn't know what he's missing!) but if you had one in the island, on the north side, you could move the wine fridge, ovens and range to the north wall and have the towers and pantry on the east wall. You'd no longer have a barrier island and your prep space would be completely separate from you clean up space (my idea of the perfect kitchen). You could keep your symmetry, the ovens wouldn't be so obvious from the family room and the function of your kitchen would be greatly improved.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cheri just summarized my thoughts perfectly. Function is so much more important at the design stage than form. Your kitchen could function really well given your space. I would never spend extra money for bow front doors over a prep sink.

    It's not lazy to have a prep sink placed well, even if it's only a few steps from the cleanup sink. It's good function. The Prep Zone and the Cleanup Zone do not play well together. Like siblings who won't stop bickering with each other, they need to be separated. And I only say all this because you could have an awesome kitchen in that space! :)

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If seating remains on the "north" side of the island, I would not put the range or ovens there. Besides, there's really not enough room for wine cooler + range + ovens and still have decent work room around the range (at least 24" on each side is preferable.) You need close to 10'8" or so (129")....1/2" filler + 24" wine + 24" base + 1/4" + 30" range + 1/4" + 24" base + 24" ovens + 1/2" filler = 128" (Depending on the size of the ovens, you may need a cabinet 25.5" wide to house the ovens. If so, add another 1.5" to the measurement and now you need 129.5".)


    Distance b/w work centers and major appliances/fixtures is not just a matter of "exercise", it's also a matter of safety. For example, you don't want to be traveling a long distance from the range with a pot of boiling water to the sink... Most times you'll be OK, but the longer the walk, the greater the chance for mishap...like tripping over an open DW door b/c it's in the middle of the path.

    Speaking of the DW, I recommend switching it and the trash pullout...get it out of the Prep Zone (the workspace b/w the range and only water source in the kitchen right now...the cleanup sink).


    BTW...I think the ovens may be a little too high off the floor...I recommend lowering them a bit...maybe a foot or so. You don't want to have to reach up much past your chest to access them. I would go someplace that has ovens installed to see what height will work best for you. Remember, you'll be opening a hot oven and reaching inside, you don't want them too high (or too low!)

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kaysd,
    I'm sorry you're faced with some design dilemmas, and some disagreement at home. My best advice to you is this: do not compromise at the design stage.
    I also agree with the other comments that function should trump everything in the kitchen. If you really can't tighten up your prep area, I believe the second sink option would be a huge boon to your kitchen. Our second sink is tiny, but it can hold a colander and gives gives us safe options when there is more than one person in the kitchen.
    We refined our kitchen design for 4 years while we completed other projects. I know that timeframe is out of the question for most people, but we are so grateful we did not use one of our early iterations.
    I really do wish you the best.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think the oven heights are fine. I'm 5'4" and the top of our steam oven is 5'7" from the floor. I regret not going a little higher because the wall oven below it is a tad too low. I think the side opening door makes all the difference here.

    Try not to get too discouraged and frustrated while working on your design. It'll be worth the time and effort you put into and it costs nothing to change things on paper. Your house and its setting are so beautiful. I hope we get to see it when you're finished!

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The last few posts have given me a lot to think about, so I will post more later. Right now, I just have a quick question. If I add a prep sink to the island and re-configure the island seating and storage a little, does the rest of the design work? The range and fridge would both be within 4.5' of the prep sink. I would move the trash and recycling pullout to the island next to the prep sink, and just have a small trash can under the clean-up sink for scraping dishes.

    Quick sketch of new island:

    Revised plan:

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I will think carefully about the exact height of the wall ovens before I actually order the cabinets (still at least 1-2 months away from that point). The plan shows the bottom of the lower oven at 30" up from the floor and the bottom of the top oven (with side opening door) at 51" from the floor. Based on my current kitchen, previous kitchen and kitchen showrooms, I think those heights will work for us. Our current kitchen has double ovens (the kind where the doors open down) at 16" and 33" from the floor. The bottom one is way too low for us. The top one, at 33" works well, and could be quite a bit higher and still comfortable for DH and me. Our last house had an OTR Advantium 54" above the floor, and it was a very comfortable height for us for a side opening small oven. If we switch from the Gagg steam oven to the Thermador to save $, then I will lower the stack a bit since both ovens would then have doors that swing down.

    I need to get my basic layout finalized very quickly, at least to the point where I am sure enough about appliance size and placement to order those. We are buying our appliances with an employee discount, and MIL is expecting to receive a better job offer from another company that has been courting her very soon.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It seems like you have a lot of counterspace where you don't need it--around the cleanup sink. And you don't have enough for my taste around the range. Two feet is tiny especially when your prep zone isn't large.

    Can the DW be moved next to the sink? It looks like you have a cab between. That would drive me nuts. Then I'd swing the ovens around to the other corner of that wall onto the cleanup run. That gives the range a bit more breathing room, but the ovens are still close. To go one step further, I'd move the wine next to the trash on the end of the cleanup run. Then you'd really have enough space.

    I'm probably not taking something you've said about your requirements into consideration with my suggestions, but it's what I see when I just look at the drawing. JMHO.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cheril27, DH agreed to a prep sink this morning if it gets things moving out of the design stage and into the building stage! The idea of moving the range and ovens to the north wall is very interesting � I had not thought of doing that before as I also pictured that as the pantry wall. I agree with Buehl that there is not enough room for the range, wall ovens, wine fridge and counters in the 9' 8" I have available in the north wall. I could live with lack of symmetry on the north wall since it is less visible. I could put the wall oven stack at on end (probably east), center the range in the remaining space, and have 27-30" of counters and lowers on each side of the range (depending on wall oven width). Then the east wall could have the fridge and freezer flanking a 6' wide pantry. I would have to give up the wine tower and get a UC unit instead. I do worry about the island seating being too close to the range in this plan, though.

    Buehl, given my new plan for the island with a prep sink closer to the range and fridge, would you still move the DW to the other side of the clean-up sink? I worry about moving it over because then it would be closer to the dining room (looks), farther from the large bank of uppers to the left of the sink where I will store most of my dishes (function), and a potential barrier/trip hazard to people trying to enter the kitchen from the dining room when the DW is open.

    Sandn, thanks for the well wishes. DH has finally reached the point where he will agree to almost anything to make me stop drawing and start calling contractors for bids. I would like to find a small round prep sink for the island that is just big enough to hold a colander to wash veggies and drain pasta and to fill stock pots with water.

    Breezygirl, thanks for all the input. Is 29" of counter on each side of the range really too little? We had 32" next to our range in the last house, and it was more than enough, even with the crockpot, knife block, cookbook holder and other small accessories on those counters. I picture doing most of my prep at the island or to the left of the sink on the south wall, rather than at the range wall with my back to everyone. The counters next to the range are mostly for landing space for the range and wall ovens and elbow room while cooking. The counter area to the left of the clean-up sink is where I will store my KA mixer, blender and toaster. I might put my baking center storage in the lowers there (not that I bake much) near the mixer and sink. I thought about putting the wine tower to the right of the sink window, but there is slightly less than 24" between the window and the wall to the dining room. I think my 30" range would look lost and out of scale if it was by itself on the east wall with 57" of counter on each side. (Although I like the looks of larger ranges, I cannot justify the extra cost when I never use more than 2-3 burners and do not want to spend the time and gas to heat an oven larger than 30".) Moving the DW next to the sink is doable, especially if I panel it. I am toying with the idea of moving the wall ovens to the south wall, but hate to give up the expanse of uppers I have planned for that wall.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A few things. With your latest layout, where do you see yourself standing at the island as you work? Will you be facing south or west? If you are facing south, I would move the prep sink to the middle of the island so that you and your food are closer to the stove. If you are facing west, leave the sink where it is but ditch the trash pullout because it won't be anywhere near where you're working and you may as well continue the "bowl" method. If you do keep the trash pull out, you are dedicating too much space to it especially with frameless cabinets. A 12" pull out base will hold a bin plenty big enough for a prep area. We had a 15" pullout with framed cabinetry at our beach house as our only trash, and it had two bins, and it was fine. We just took the trash out every day. And really, the stuff you put in the trash where you prep probably should go out at least every other day anyway so no need for a big bin there. Even a bin under the prep sink will work. Before our remodel, we had a small bin under the sink as our only trash can (family of four). Sure I like the bigger one we have now better, but the small one really wasn't that bad. And it would have been plenty as a prep area bin.

    If you are prepping at the island, I think you have plenty of room on either side of the range, as drawn.

    I really like the seating arrangement in the new layout. It's not only a great place for breakfast, lunch and quick dinners, but wonderful as a crafts, homework, etc spot for the kids as they get older and a great place to sit as you prep.

    Another thing to consider though, in this layout, if you're facing south when you work, is to move the island closer to the sink. (In fact, I'd do that in any case). You will need the wider aisle where the refrigerator is so people can get past you if you're working.

    By the way, there are still a few old style Gagg steam ovens on ebay that might be worth considering. Gaggenau's warranty doesn't start until the day of installation. We bought ours on ebay right after the new models came out and saved several thousand dollars.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry, Kay. We cross posted. I think Buehl suggested you move the DW because in the previous layout, she thought you would be standing in front of it when you prep. This won't be the case with a prep sink in the island. Regarding the island seating being too close to the range if it's on the north wall. Just be sure that the seat nearest the range is for whoever is doing the cooking, in other words, unoccupied until the work is done. Or, put the ovens at the west end of the wall. Or move the seating to the east end of the island.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kaysd,
    I think that a small prep sink (ours is just 12" round) will make a huge difference for you. I still like the idea of the second sink and larger counter space on the same wall as the range, but a quick pivot turn from the range to the sink shouldn't be too bad. Have you considered drawing your plans in Google SketchUp? It's free, and it makes a huge difference to be able to see your space in three dimensions and from different angles. I really don't think you can spend too much time on the design.
    Good luck.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you have a decent sized prep sink (at least 12" in each direction, more is better) in the island and a decent amount of workspace next to it, then you probably don't need to move the DW...unless you envision the area as an additional Prep Zone that will be used frequently. For infrequent use, the DW is fine there.

    Since the Prep Zone is in the island now, put the trash pullout inside the zone...it's far more useful in the Prep Zone than anywhere else in the kitchen, including the Cleanup Zone. What I see right now, one in the Prep Zone and one in the Cleanup Zone is ideal, to me at least.

    I usually recommend at least 24" on both sides of the range for workspace when it's not also the Prep Zone. If the Cooking Zone & Prep Zone are sharing space, then you need at least 36" on the Prep Zone side.

    One thing about moving the range to the north wall, it may be in a well-traveled path through the kitchen...will it be? If so, I'd think twice about putting it there...you want the Cooking Zone and range as protected from traffic as possible.

    If you want seating + range & ovens on the same aisle, I suggest a wider aisle. Of course, then it might be a pivot and a step b/w the island & range...something like this?

    I rotated it so north is really north (i.e., the north side is the top). It's less confusing.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry, when I looked at your last drawing I thought the space on either side of the range was 24". I cook a lot every day and the small prep space on the island wouldn't be enough for me. When I cook with a tiny prep space separated from the range, I find I need lots of space next to the range to set prepped food, etc to go on the range because I can't hold it in the prep zone. That's why I suggested more space next to the range.

    I'm no layout expert though. Feel free to ignore me.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A picture says a thousand words. I don't have design software on my Apple, so thanks for drawing that, Buehl.

    The layout above would give you much of what you're looking for aesthetically while functioning as a great work space. I really like it. But, if you don't like the wine fridge wear it is in Buehl's drawing, Thermador and Bosch make an 18" x 84" tower that would fit to the far right of your sink. It holds 70 bottles compared to 96 in the 24" model. That might work better for you than the an undercounter one.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Buehl, thank you so much for doing that alternate layout for me. It really helps to see it. I actually really like the way it looks (although I might move the wine tower to the south wall or ditch it). It allows the less attractive range and ovens to be out of the direct sightline and lets me have the back wall full of tall cabinets and appliances like in my first design. The funny thing is, as much as I like it aesthetically, it might not work as well for us. I expect the aisle between the north wall and the island will be a prime traffic area, especially if kids and guests have to walk to the far east end of the kitchen, past the range, to get drinks from the fridge. The east wall is probably a more protected spot for cooking at the range, and keeping the ovens in the southeast corner means they will not open into the middle of a major traffic path.

    Cheril27, my preference is to stand on the north side of the island while prepping, so I am facing south, but can easily look west into the other room. The sink may actually force me to work on the south side of the island where there is a longer, unbroken expanse of counter. I know GWers really like prep sinks, and I can see it being useful occasionally, but I also see it being in my way a lot, which is why I wanted to tuck it into a corner. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by moving the sink to the middle of the island. Do you mean moving it further down the north side, like where I show the trash pullout or drawers, or move it the center of the shorter east end? I figured having the prep sink on the south side of the island across from the big sink would be pointless, since the 2 sinks would not be very spaced out then. I do occasionally look for Gagg ovens on ebay. I noticed several GWers comment in other posts that the Gagg warranties do not start until install, but MIL was told by the person who handles sales of BSH appliances to employees that the warranties for Gagg, Thermador and Bosch start running when they are delivered to us, even if they sit in the garage for 5 months waiting to be installed. Thanks for reminding me about the 18" wine towers. I originally wanted one to the far right of the sink, since it would be very convenient to the dining room, but DH hates the idea of a 24" deep tall appliance in that spot. If he is standing at the clean-up sink, he does not want a "big, hulking thing" right next to him and blocking the view into the next room (never mind that there is a support wall there anyway).

    Sandn, what kind of prep sink do you have and where did you buy it?

    Breezygirl, I appreciate the feedback because it makes me think. Right now, I cook a few meals on weekends, and re-heat leftovers or take out on work nights. We do want to start cooking more though. It is funny to me how many times I have been told the prep spaces in my various plans are small, because to us, they are huge compared to what we have worked with the past decade. I do want to get things right with this kitchen though, as I hope we are in this house for many, many years.

    DH is so upset with me that I can't just pick one of the many design possibilities we have discussed and just stick with it. He tells me it will never be perfect (because I can't fit what I really want in our space) and I should just be happy with 85% perfect and move on with my life. We have always made whatever kitchen we have work, so he doesn't get why I am stressing over the best possible layout (despite the large amount of $ it will cost and the fact that we plan to live here for 20+ years). DH is really pressuring me to go with the revised design I posted yesterday and not make any more changes, even little ones that don't affect our appliance order like swapping the DW position. He is getting very upset with me for re-visiting design decisions that he considers have already been made. He thinks I am flooding our unborn child with negative stress hormones because of this remodel and agonizing over decisions. He said this morning we should either go with the design I already have (no more changes) or put a complete moratorium on kitchen design (i.e., I can't shop, discuss, or even think about (LOL) the kitchen) for at least 5 months. Of course, if we delay, we lose the 40% discount on appliances. Like I am not stressed out enough without ultimatums. The kitchen design started out as a fun research project and has just become a miserable task.

    The custom cabinet guy called me yesterday afternoon to see if he could pick up some magazine pictures I had mentioned and to see if I have made any decisions. At the time, I was feeling pretty good about my design (with the changes to the island) so I agreed to meet with him today (in about 1 hour). He will give me 3-D color renderings of my design and a quote for the cabinetry. If I keep making changes, he will also think I am nuts. The last kitchen design we did with him was much easier. It was a smaller kitchen with a decent layout, so we decided not to move the appliances more than a few inches to save costs. I did one sketch of the cabinets showing exactly how wide and tall I wanted everything, and that was it. Having a blank slate is so much harder.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I know how you are feeling about DH wanting it done. Mine was like that for a few months. I worked on my layout for almost a year until I felt in my soul that it was right. I'm so, so, so glad I didn't settle for layout #58, but kept going. I know how it turns to pure misery. I'm right there with you managing my whole house reno by myself with two small kids, no GC, and a DH who works and travels alot. I'm in hell.

    I strongly urge you not to rush or to settle. It's tough when you're getting pressure just to be done with it. You need to relax and work the layout until you get it right. 85% is not good enough. Once you've explored all the options and given thorough thought to all the pros and cons, maybe 85% of what you want in the kitchen WILL be good enough. After all, you can never get 100% of everything you want in a reno.

    The pressure you're feeling right now is NOT helping you find the right layout for you. And he's right that it isn't good for your pregnancy or your baby. Pregnancy is a special gift that many women would give dearly to have. Enjoy it!

    Putting the appliance discount aside, I think it's better to slow up. If you're less stressed, decisions will come easier. I lost my place in line with my cabinet maker twice during the planning process, but ended up having the timing work out to hire him when we were ready. I also ended up finding a screaming deal on my dream ovens (that I would not have been able to afford) because of the delays.

    I only say all of this out of experience and concern for you. You'll regret settling for something now just to be done with it. Off of my soapbox.....

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Kaysd,
    You know I second everything Breezygirl just wrote. I hope you'll find a way to enjoy the process. When everything starts to click with your design, you'll know it. There are so many details in a kitchen renovation that you really can't rush or leave any detail unconsidered.
    We got our small sink in Toronto at a family run store called Elte (at the Ginger's bath boutique). I think they may operate similarly to Rohl in the US. Our sink brand is Mekal (called Soho on the website). It comes in brushed or mirrored stainless. I put a link below. We have our drinking water filter tap at this sink as well as a small bar-sized faucet. It's only been in a little over a week, but we're so glad we got the second sink. It means two people can work entirely independently in the kitchen without ever crossing paths.

    Here is a link that might be useful: small round sink

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I only thought you should move the prep sink to the middle if you kept the range on the east wall. Buehl's drawing is exactly what I was saying in that long post, but as I said, a picture says a thousand words and my explanation was probably as clear as mud!

    When we bought our Gagg steam oven on ebay, I called Gaggenau to inquire about the installation. They told me that the warranty started the day of install and that I needed to keep my receipt from the person who did the installation. I had both ovens (I also bought the matching 24" oven that was discontinued) checked out by an authorized tech about 2 months after install and he called them into Gagg as just installed. The warranty started that day. Thermador and Bosch may be different. I know it's the same company but I'm not sure they have the same warranty rules.

    I also agree with Sandn and Breezygirl that you can't rush this. Does DH like Buehl's drawing? It's a great kitchen with everything you're looking for, especially if you move the wine tower to the west end of the south wall. You are SO close to getting the kitchen you want. Maybe he can give you just one more week.

    BTW, Sabjimata was expecting when she went through the stress of remodeling her amazing kitchen. Her baby was born healthy, happy and beautiful!

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kay, I've been thinking about you this afternoon. Thought I'd check to see if there was anything new here. How are you doing?

    I mentioned that your prep space is small because I like to have 4' of uninterrupted space for prep. Three is minimal. I just realized that your 3' will feel bigger than that because of the extra depth of the island! You can push things farther back than the standard 2' deep counter and still have good working space in front of you. With that, if 3' feels good to you it should be fine.

    It seems like you're struggling with the idea of a prep sink. If it helps, I'll tell you how I see a prep sink working. It's not a second sink to use when the other sink is busy. For me, a prep sink is used when preparing all of the food. Veggies get washed and chopped. Chicken hands get washed. Pots get filled. Pasta gets drained. Its the command center for cooking. It's a whole different mind set for cooking than our parents era. Oh, and I really tried hard in theory to make a 12" round prep sink work for me. I know it would be too small and the wrong shape to really be useful to me. It's not for show, it's for prepping.

    The main sink, also called the cleanup sink, is where the dirty dishes get washed. That's it. It can serve as another work station if someone else is helping you cook, but you as the main cook do not stand there around dirty dishes working with food while cooking. Separating the prepping/cooking activities from the cleanup activities will make your life easier, especially with two small children. And especially if you start cooking more like you want to do. That separation was one of the three top priorities for my new kitchen.

    Design the kitchen for how you plan to use it in the future.

    As far as your layout, I like the range on the east wall like your last drawing because of Buehl's concern about the traffic pattern through the range area in her drawing. I think your latest is a good one if you could free up some more counter space around the range. The wine fridge is the easiest thing to move out as it doesn't have a function in that spot. I know DH doesn't want it in the end spot on the cleanup sink run, but that seems like the best place for it. Maybe tell him you'll have a plan finalized much faster if he agrees to move the fridge?! ;). You said he would agree to anything....

    The only other thing I'd consider tweaking slightly is the prep sink placement, for two reasons. One, you need some landing space for items going into and coming out of the fridge. The only spot near it is the island. The sink on the end might be in the way. Which way will the door swing? Two, I think I'd like my workspace and fridge closer to the range than the sink. BUT member Rhome has a similar sized island if you lopped the seating off of yours. Her prep sink is in the same spot as your drawing on the corner across from the range. She cooks every meal for a family of 10 so it can't be that much of a problem. Her sink is square-ish, and she placed her faucet more to the corner of the sink against the middle of the island. That placement makes a difference in that the sink can be used from both the short end and the longer side easily. Pros and cons to moving it or not.

    Hang in there. Take a deep breath. You're getting close! You'll get it!