Hi
Just a few points, the pump wont deliver the pressure if you plan to run it for one second. Fit anti-drip valves to every nozzle to retain pressure in the lines and prevent dripping.
You won`t use a fraction of the nutrients compared to other methods so run-to-waste is a viable option to consider.

Thanks for the reply.

Update.

I was unable to get the steinen anti-drip nozzles but I

found anti-drip nozzles from Hago (#4023) They look very

similar. I have also had some concerns about the ability

of the pump to be turned off so rapidly/often. I have

been doing a little experimenting with the pressure switch

that came with the Aquatec 8800 pump and have had some

success. Will know more once I receive the anti-drip

nozzles. If I can make it work this will be the cheapest

high pressure aeroponic system that I have seen. Still

playing around with some ideas for the nutrient supply

reservoir. Would like to have something that is

pressurized so I can get the most PSI at the nozzles.

I have some very old SS rechargeable fire extinguishers

that I might be able to use as a pressurized supply tank.

I really don't want to refill them so often though. ???

Also wondering if there would be a way to set up a venturi

effect in my water supply line. That is to say have a

container with a fairly concentrate nutrient solution

plumped into the water supply line. Anyone think that

this could work? Some ? in my mind if I could control

the concentration of the nutrient provided and/or the PH

of the water coming out the nozzle.

This is all a work in progress and I am trying to put

together a NASA inspired system together on a pretty

small budget so any help would be appreciated.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hago nozzle #4023

@katabaticwind,

You certainly seem serious and ambitious with this project and I'd actually like to support it. But is this your first system or do you have collected some/more experience with less sophisticated and more rudimentary systems and means? Why am I asking this? Well, because of two things: 1. besides the effectiveness that can be expected from such a technology you are aiming for, there are several other important aspects (besides a perfect technical configuration and solution) that actually determine outcome and success of such project. 2. Subsequently, I recommend to not lose sight of these, while focussing on the purely technological part.

About technical solutions: why don't you inquire about how these kind of systems (the real things) are actually furnished and what they are using as materials, technical solutions and mechanisms. I believe that it is important to keep in line with some of the technical requirements by all means here. Why? Simply because in SOME CASE there is no real alternative available. Not considering this, you' might end up with a ambitious- (in regard to deployment of means) but not properly working or not adequately performing "pseudo-high-end configuration".

Comparisons aren't ever fitting as their nature is to illustrate only, - but let me try at least: it's like the desire to building a Ferrari with a small budget. In both cases, chances are high that you'll end up with neither fish nor meat. Or, if you want to use a 600+ horse power engine, you'll need adequate, sufficiently performant and rather expensive breaks. While anticipating and considering this, you might forget that with a manual gear and that much horse power, an adequate gearbox is a must as well, not even talking about the strength of the chassis, suspension, and so on, and so on... ;-)

I am not saying that you are on the wrong track with this, nor do I want to discourage you in any way. All I am saying is that the very nature of aiming for the superlative and to building a highly sophisticated and performant system with a low budget is kind of a paradox. Why? Simply because of the hidden consequences you discover only little by little. Some can only hardly if ever, be solved with inexpensive means. These are facts you have to truly consider. If you don't anticipate all (or at least most) of them in the first place, you obviously "suffer" the consequences eventually. If aiming for any superlative, you can't ALWAYS improvise or use inexpensive alternatives, unless you are the hell of a genius. And in that case you don't need any advise nor help LOL

I think you are approaching it in a sensible way, the hardware you`ve bought is well suited for the task.

If you decide to upgrade for greater control at a later date you`d just need to add a few more items instead of starting over :)

Do you know what the opening and closing pressures are on the Hago anti-drip nozzles? I didn`t see it mentioned in the spec but otherwise they look good too.

Lucas`s comments are right on the money.
Building a system capable of delivering the right type of mist is one thing but that in itself isnt a guarantee :)

Thanks for the replies

All good points.

While I think the ? is meant to be rhetorical, I will answer

it anyways. I have no first hand experience with an

aeroponic system. So far most of what I have seen are

systems that shower plant roots. Not a direction I want

to go. The makers of higher end systems, from what I have

seen so far, tend not to show how their systems work.

Not that I blame them. R&D costs money.

I have found, to use Lucas's analogy/comparison

in a different way, is what makes a Ferrari great is that

it is hand built. As the quantity of anything produced

increases the need to take in production costs increases.

There is only one way to find out how the components that

I have chosen will work. Test them. Learn by doing.

Your points on keeping things in perspective so at the

end of the day I have an overall working system are not lost

on me.

None of the components are particularly cheap. The repeat

cycle timer is solid state electronics. The nozzles

are stainless steal. The pump, while I ideally want more,

does provide 120 PSI. The myriad of other things

to consider are just things that I will need to research

further and tackle when I get to them.

My best improvements will come from my mistakes.

To elaborate further about the workings of my

proposed system, I am experimenting using the pressure

switch to turn off the booster pump. I switched the wires

on the pressure switch so it turns off the booster pump

when the pressure goes below 40 PSI.

The lay out is as follows from the solenoid valve,

controlled by the repeat cycle timer, I placed the

pressure switch before the booster pump. So when the

solenoid closes the booster pump continues to pump

water to the nozzles until the pressure before the pump

decreases to the point that the pressure switch turns the

pump off. Hopefully the cracking pressure of the nozzles

will cooperate. Hex the the link at the bottom shows

the different cracking pressures of Hago nozzles. The

supplier didn't give me a straight answer when I ask

what they where selling me. The setup that I just

described did seem to work although I did have problems

with dripping/spitting at the nozzle tips. Time will

tell if the new nozzles will work well.

Another big ? is the nozzles clogging. Any thoughts???

As always any help would be appreciated, part of the fun

is learning what works and what doesn't.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hago pressure ranges

Thanks for the link, i`d say the LC type will give you more scope in the long run.
If you screen the nutrients with a 1 micron filter and use drain to waste you won`t get many clogging issues. They do happen as the nutes (calcium mainly) eventually cause a build up. Soaking the nozzles and lines in a weak acid like white vinegar will dissolve it fairly easily.

The biggest issue with aeroponic systems is overmisting. Try to design your system so you can dial the mist duration down to almost nothing. If the minimum setting not enough you can always increase but if its too much you`ll be stuck with no way to reduce it.

The pumps pressure response will set your lower limit, the timer may go lower but if the pump can`t react fast enough it wont help. To achieve very short misting durations you`ll need to incorporate an accumulator. Use the timer to operate a solenoid valve which provides pressure and high flow rate in a few milliseconds.
To control the pump you`ll need a pressure switch and a pressure relief valve for safety.

This is where Lucas`s analogy of the ferrari applies; to achieve your original goal you have to choose between the added complexity/cost to gain the ferrari performance you set out for or you can choose simplicity which then compromises your ferrari.

Builders of aeroponic systems, modify their idea of what a ferrari is depending on the number of compromises they make. I have a real hard time believing a 3psi pond pump and a 360 sprinkler comes close to the ferrari they imagine it to be ;)

What katabaticwind referred to in the context when saying that the good thing about ferraris is that they are hand build is unfortunately not true (anymore). They're more like churned out and not even assembled by hand anymore. But that's anyway not the point here and another story. Btw: Hand build doesn't mean anything - unless it is said by whom ;-)

Building a perfect aeroponic setup based on high water pressure is truly about fine engineering and hence every single part needs to fit and sometimes even be tuned. The saying: who says "A" must also say "B" truly applies here.

I have been thinking of a actually low cost and much simpler, yet effective spraying system. In fact a system based on reliable and "cheap" air pressure (instead of expensive and rather fragile high water pressure) and sprayed through a modified paint sprayer. Also, I was wrapping my head around some simple and purely mechanical triggering system that would be easy to build and yet be reliable. As soon as time permits, I shall put some prototype together.

In fact I came to this alternative idea and concept when stumbling over this YouTube video - it should at least give you an idea about how air pressure is used:

Here is a link that might be useful: Ultrasonic Air Atomiser

The mist can be generated by several methods but at the end of the day without the control you`ll get identical results using a pond pump.
There are some pics of roots grown using a compressed air atomiser at http://www.aerolife.com/index.html
They look exactly the same as those produced by a sprinkler type aeroponic setup simply because they overmisted.

I agree about that, but believe that the response time of compressed air is quick by nature, actually instantly. And, triggering a very short air/spraying burst by simple mechanical means no rocket science either. Just imagine shortly pushing the trigger of a simple spray gun (manually) and releasing it instantly again. Simply mechanise the very same movement and cycle it MECHANICALLY and the problem is as good as solved ;-)

Thanks for the replies,tips, and links.

I wasn't to clear in my last post when I mentioned the

Ferrari. While looking at other systems that are being sold

the manufactures need to be concerned with the time and

materials in order to be cost effective i.e. they need to

make a profit. In my one-off hand built system I might be

able to make a better product. I also can put money into

key parts and not be concerned with things like ever

needing to ship the setup. So while trying to learn

from commercial units might be very helpful I must keep in

mind what parts are available to me. If I can assemble them

into a functioning unit is another story and hopefully

something that I can achieve.

The idea of getting cheaper plastic nozzles that I just

replace more often does sound appealing. Seems that

some of the units that I have seen do use them.

To be more specific I have the 4600A-6-1-A Artisan repeat

cycle timer. Link provided. It is a model 4600A with 115V AC operating voltage with an adjustable Repeat Cycle Time
(RCT) from 0.2 to 60 seconds, and an adjustable Energize Time (ET) from up to a maximum of 50% of whatever the Repeat Cycle Time (RCT) is set for.

I have used several resistors and potentiometer to provide

some adjustment ability but more or less is setup now

to operate the normally closed solenoid to open for one

second every 60 seconds. Tunning might be needed but this

is a hobby and therefore part of the fun.

Any input/recommendations on what nutrients to use?

Thanks for any help.

Here is a link that might be useful: repeat cycle timer

A solenoid is electro-mechanical, clockwork could be interesting but maybe not quite as reliable and you`d have to keep winding it up :)

I think compressed air or pressurized water are equally responsive and either would have no problem delivering a sub 1 second misting duration.
They both have potential downsides too; you might not be too popular if the compressor decides to fire up at 3am, or in the case of pressurized water, a line at 100psi springs a leak while you`re at work..swings and roundabouts.

You may decide using a pump is the more reliable option but then you`re at the mercy of power outages and pump failures. With the storage tank approach (air or water)you can use 12v timer and solenoid and access whatever remains in the tank.
Pump failure is very unlikely as the pump only runs for a few minutes every couple of days to recharge the tank. An air compressor is likely run once every hour or two depending on the size of the receiver.

Plenty of options :)

@katabaticwind, I have perhaps been a bit too cheeky with the "hand made" ferrari comparison at the end, but no offence intended;-)

About nutrients I may be able to help to some extend here. Not sure about this part, but as far as I am informed, a weaker as usual concentration is used for nutrients, to prevent nozzles from clogging and because of this particular technique.

However, 1. I wouldn't use any fancy additives or supplements, unless 100% tested with such system 2. if a weaker nutrient solution is used indeed, it may need to be specific and adopted. But this would end up in some expert talk that requires the ability to make your own nutrients. Bottom line: if you dilute to a certain degree, some of the elements still need to be sufficiently available and thus corrected: notably some more trace elements, especially Fe - then magnesium and a pinch more phosphorus (only if not anyway used in excess like in many commercial formulas). In fact, I would recommend what I call a seedling formula. A formula that is designed to actually be used in weaker concentration. 3. You have to consider that a weaker concentration may need more pH correction (down) as a 'normal' concentration.
4. finally, and this relays on what I said earlier about actual and general experience with hydroponics that would come handy at some moment in time: any formula used with such system would obviously depend on the crop you intend to grow with it - were you thinking about this part already? :-)

Thanks for the replies

This is what I have started so far in Oasis root cubes.

Item: Details: Quantity: Each: Item Total:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#9212 #9212 - Chichen Itza 1 $ 3.65 $ 3.65
Hybrid - 30 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#9336 #9336 - Mulato Isleno - 1 $ 2.55 $ 2.55
30 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#9638 #9638 - Guajillo - 30 1 $ 2.55 $ 2.55
seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#9450 #9450 - Hot Paper Lantern 1 $ 2.95 $ 2.95
- 30 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#9250 #9250 - Chile de Arbol - 1 $ 2.55 $ 2.55
30 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#9030 #9030 - Ancho San Martin 1 $ 3.95 $ 3.95
Hybrid - 30 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#9272 #9272 - Ancho San Luis - 1 $ 2.45 $ 2.45
30 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#9037 #9037 - Giant Marconi 1 $ 4.00 $ 4.00
Hybrid - 30 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#9201 #9201 - Satsuma Hybrid - 1 $ 4.00 $ 4.00
20 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#9152 #9152 - Pritavit Hybrid - 1 $ 4.15 $ 4.15
30 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#5761 #5761 - Dad's Mug - 30 1 $ 2.55 $ 2.55
seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#3270 #3270 - Better Bush VFN 1 $ 2.75 $ 2.75
Hybrid - 30 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
#5268 #5268 - Viva Italia VFFNA 1 $ 3.25 $ 3.25
Hybrid - 30 seeds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sub Total: $ 41.35
Shipping Total: (US & Possessions - First Class) $ 5.25
Grand Total: $ 46.60 PAID

From tomato growers supply.

Obviously quite a lot of plants but I give some to friends.

I have purchased 2 part product called Aqua Flake.

Need to find something cheaper.

Supposedly, from what the salesman told me???, a quality

product that will clog the least. Also bought something

called Drip Clean

"House & Garden Drip Clean is an extremely useful agent for anyone working with a drip or aeroponic system. Drip Clean works like a magnet, removing dirt particles at every nutrient feeding so that the piping remains clean. Drip Clean furthermore gives plants a boost, improving their greenness and vitality.

Drip Clean is a 100% safe agent for your plants provided it is used in the correct proportion. Drip Clean contains potassium and phosphorus compounds, two very powerful and useful elements in the nutritional plan of the plant. These concern engineered compounds; one particle has been removed from their structure. The incomplete element thus works as a magnet. As molecules always seek a complete structure, Drip Clean attracts dirt particles with every nutrient feeding keeping the drip emitters or aeroponic misters squeaky clean. Drip Clean very fails and is a very effective agent against a clogged hydroponic system.

Application

Drip Clean can be added to the nutrient container during the entire life of the garden. Prepare your nutrient container as follows: First add the base nutrient to your water filled container. Adjust the EC- and pH-values of the nutrient container. Finally add Drip Clean at 0.4 ml per gallon to your. Your nutrient mixture is ready to use."

Does that sound like marketing BS to anyone?

I have concerns about clogging. I would think it would

not take long for the plants to die if the water

was not running. Also a concern because to some extent

my plants are out of sight i.e. on top of my flat roof.

This is the reason why I am interested with the aeroponics.

My property is covered by enormous trees and the roof is

the only place that gets full sun. So I didn't want to

drag tons of dirt up on the roof. Also could dismantle

the system in the winter. I also have to admit that I am

thrifty and these systems do seem to use resources

efficiently. Although putting plants in the dirt would

be cheaper and you could always just buy tomatoes and

peppers at the store but this is more fun among other

benefits.

Lucas it is hard to be offended by someone that is helping

me. Thanks

Hex I like the idea of short duration sprays as well and

is the direction I plan to go with but I wonder why,from

the high pressure system I have seen so far, that most go

with longer spray times Ex (10 secs. every 10 min.)

Same amount of water more or less.

Maybe it is easier to pull off, less wear and tear on parts,

or maybe it is the controllers they use.????

Side note the link you sent me to has a very similar

(looks identical) controller that I use on my fish tank. It

is made Digital Aquatics and I am very happy with so far.

Also notice they mention insulating root area.

Does anyone know what is the approx. ideal temp. for the

root area? (for aeroponics)

Thanks for any help.

Here is a link that might be useful: controller

I`ve no experience of drip clean but it seems too good to be true that 0.4ml a gallon will somehow trap solid particles and prevent them from reaching the nozzles.

Regarding misting durations, aim for as misting as little and often as possible. If you saturate the roots with an overly long misting they will take longer to recover before they`ll benefit from any more mist, its closer to nft than aeroponic ;)
If they dont get overly wet to begin with, they don`t waste any time drying out.
The timing is used for control as plants are dynamic.
As mentioned earlier,increasing the misting duration is easy but reducing it below the minimum setting is impossible. Its better to have a setting thats too low than one that isnt low enough.
If the timing wasn`t such an important element, you could expect to see exactly the same results using timings of 24mins/24hr (1 misting per day) or 1sec/60sec (1440 mistings per day).

I am glad I found your forum post. You seem to be trying to develop an aeroponic system similar to mine. My system is going to be similar to Aeroflow_20 system from General Hydroponics. I have spent the last few months playing around with different systems, and currently am about to test the following configuration:

Mist-Jet type P misting nozzles from Steinen. (They were willing to sell me 10). The price range was $10-$14 dollars depending on materials.

Shurflo 100psi pump (model: 8000-812-288)

Either 3/8" stainless steel piping, or 1/2" schedule 80 pvc piping (have experimented with both; stainless reduces leaks but is much more expensive)

rubber hoses with NPT end connections (rated for at least 150 psi)

accumulator tank (have experimented with 2 gallon tank from my RO system, but may go with a small accumulator)

12 volt solenoid valve

pressure gauge

Qty of 2: 6x6 vinyl post sleeve from Penn fencing

In-line 100 mesh strainer from spring pumps.

The steinen nozzles work great but what has been very difficult to get right is the pump. I have a problem where the pump cycles every 1-2 seconds. I have tried to adjust the pressure switch screw, but when turning clockwise it causes the pump to remain on and when turning counterclockwise it has no effect.

Have you had any luck with pumps? I am thinking about purchasing a variable speed pump.

When I used the 2 gallon accumulator tank, the pump still cycled and the pressure stayed at 60 psi, but if I turned the pump off, the accumulator provided enough pressure to keep the nozzles going for quite some time. I may purchase a small Shurflo accumulator to see what happens.

If you are planning on doing a similar system, be wary of the nozzle length. The adapter from Steinen cause the nozzle to be very long, and I couldn't fit it inside a 4x5 vinyl fence post. That is why I am having to use the type p nozzle. I don't want to use pvc cement on anything, so I have chosen to screw the nozzles into tees. The fence post caps will be sealed with silicone.

As for a timer, I am an electrical engineer, and have designed a timer circuit board that can turn on/off the pump and solenoid valve. I have tested it on a breadboard and it works, but need to have the board manufactured and test it will the real system.

Let me know where you are at with your system, and we can combine experiences.

Good luck with everything.

How a bout this pump for your system?

Here is a link that might be useful: SHurflo 12v pump 150psi