If we're not careful, all this discussion about what words mean will begin to sound like Lewis Carol. Try these bits -

" 'I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

'It's time for you to answer now,' the Queen said, looking at her watch: 'open your mouth a little wider when you speak, and always say "your Majesty."' 'I only wanted to see what the garden was like, your Majesty---'

'That's right,' said the Queen, patting her on the head, which Alice didn't like at all: 'though, when you say "garden" - I've seen gardens, compared with which this would be a wilderness.'

Alice didn't dare to argue the point....

Isn't it a case of 'garden architecture' and suchlike expressions having more or less the meanings that individual persons want to put on them?

Does it really matter whether a garden shed is thought of as 'garden architecture' or not?

Herb

They are only words to get hung up on.
What matters is the action.

:))), Herb, perhaps, but that line of approach won't enable me to do the best I can in writing a chapter(s) for a local _gardening book, addressing landscaping. Xeriscaping, pruning, transplanting, all that stuff is easy, yet the definition of what to cover in landscaping, short of writing a book, of hundreds of books out there..... well,

As previous posts pointed out, whether rightly or not, it seems the populace believes what it wishes to believe about a word and its meanings.
Therefore, in writing, I did not wish to confuse with my apparent non-popular meanings...
Japanese landscaper or Japanese gardener.. one and the same? now I could be undergoing an identity crisis.
It seems whenever an answer is not agreed on, that the personal meanings and wishes clause is invoked..
back to 'I can put whatever I want in my Japanese garden and it will still be a Japanese garden!'. This circles back to Yanagi and the Age of the Individual, -the Individual item versus craft for people, by people. of which the garden is for people, yet we seem to garden for ourselves, the 'I', --but,.. we want others, to appreciate it as the 'I' does.
Therefore I feel the definition should be a 'we', on landscaping and gardening.

or... I can write anything I want, irregardless of the audience, the shelf life, etc., which perhaps is why many books are seldom useful, and one needs many books to touch in on a subject.
thanks though,..
edzard
(I suspect I have been heading in BoTann's direction though.. Landscaping as the preparation / infrastructure for the places in which we (have) garden(s).)

Edzard -

Ah, now I understand why you were asking the question. I should think that a writer wants (or should want) his readers to understand what he's saying,: and that means that he should absolutely not rely what you've called the personal meanings and wishes clause!

That brings me back to your original question - the difference between landscaping and gardening. Think of Capability Brown: he's pretty well always described as a 'landscape gardener' - because - as you've already perceived - 'landscape' implies something bigger-scale than mere 'gardening' & Capability Brown specialised in creating grand vistas of many acres. Nowadays people - yuppies at any rate - like to hear the word 'landscape' because it makes them feel that the garden that they own is a cut or two above, and bigger than, a plain garden.

When it comes to 'garden architecture' - I think 'garden structures' sounds more practical & less pretentious.

As for 'Japanese Landscaper' versus 'Japanese Gardener' - I like the sound of 'Japanese Landscape Gardener'. I hope it doesn't make me a yuppie.

Herb

When law is having to do with a Garden then its no longer gardening to me.Seems more like farming or landscaping.
Fruits, vegetables ornamentals or gravel expanses with boulders...as long as I can do all of it without law I feel as a gardener.

Law.

Easiest way for my mind to comprehend Landscape verses Gardening is the alteration of topography. Topo -engineering. Once a garden changes the elevations enough to warrant town officials supervision, approvals and permits are required then its no longer gardening. Gardening comes to a halt and Landscape is new imposed word.

How much the topo..soils elevations has to do with the original meaning of scape I have no idea. I read somewhere scape once meant in Dutch? The system of pipes in a waterworks. Maybe like a 15th century Water garden ? Or maybe a water Mill? sheafs of paper having a realtion also. A grouping having similar qualaties. Collection, flow. I think Landscaping is in the realm of a peoples vision where thier laws and codes enforce it. No ? Gardening is something we take for granted as being individual rights as Americans..almost as if its in the Constitution. Prtected rights. Untill we find not all gardens are born equall.Usually while we are in the process of giving birth to one. A violent halt is made from the local Town Board. STOP

A gardening book is for those who seek to do things under the radar of Law, specs and codes etc. Sleepers. Those who also have the luck of shared community ideals , visions and understanding. I spent all my Summers growing up in Lynchburg County VA ..while raised in Upper Westchester County N.Y. . Watching the Farmer in VA with a few million dollars of earth moving heavy machinery ( Was his toys, No joke) build a causeway to an island in a lake !! I was mesmerized. He was playing around.Chump change. Had time and money and machines to play with. Odd part he still had no plumbing in house..used outhouse and well pump. Drove a Cadillac ...bought one new ever couple years. He had awesome gardens. He was a free man.

Now going back to Westchester I learned as a kid I was in a closed society . Laws and rules as if I was a child in school. I could not dam up the creek and build a bridge. Nope. Sad. And the irony was growing up in Westchester so many properties are Landscaped ..changes in Elevation from Pre-1900's era...when dams created ponds and GRistmills flowed. To own a Landscape one has to now buy into History.This means paying 30,000 a year for average home in taxes. People want dirt roads and pastoral paintings of Landscape to stay as is. Exclusive communities. you dont see the carpenter or Plumber living here where Landscaping is stil King of high society co-exihisting with gardeners. Money to afford Lawyers to get around Word definitions. Such as Ultra Modern home..works of art where changing the Lands elevations is still kinda O.K. Its all about being in the right place at the right time. Words change as peoples visions change. Art seems to rule the law in some towns. People see thier town as part of a painting style. Take a look in thier homes, paintings on the walls and you will nkow when gardening ends and lanscaping starts. Sometimes thye make laws so strict to protect thier own vision that they become stuck, stagnent and confined to obeying thier own laws. Its then you see some people rebel and are wealthy enough to pay the fines.they are spending money changing topogralhy..elevations for arts sake. Woth the money in thier eyes and fines.

Landscaping is a book having gardening but reader is warned when Law ,specs and codes might be of an issue. Landscaping to me is when one tends to the reality of conforming to society. Good thing is we have many towns to choose to live in. Giving us diverse choices as to how we want to be governed when it comes to gardening or Landscaping .

If I was a writer, I would know the communities vision and laws enforcing that vision. So a person can decide if the book is Landscaping or Gardening based upon ease of completion without officials and licensed professionals .

Local politics. U know ?

Words such as Ecology, Environment, Swamp. Wetlands, Pastures or Fields. U dont want to by a gardening book having everything the town you live is opposed to and creates laws to ensure its vision.

Each town has its own vision. Only a fool uses words that sends warning Bells . Word definitions are social entities. Having mood swings just like people. DonÂt want to rub a word the wrong way .

People in a community will protect that words definition as they see fit and may become Rabid and hunt you down with the hand of Law grabbing you by collar.

Best to write a local article that reflects vision polotics. Laws etc. Teach them how to get around those laws as much as possible with alternative methods of construction and design etc.

Herb,.. my nephew tells that at a certain point there is no going back, I presume that you are also out of luck for this in his dictionary.
Yet, yuppie-dom may be a state of mind...

Ricky,.. thanks, i think I see your point, however, I live in the country, montane, mountains and wide prairie on the other side. The closest town is at least 15 miles away and has a store, a gas station and a few people. Blink and its gone by. Eyebrow, in Saskatchewan is larger, so is Dogpound and Onefour in Alberta. Think 2 copper wires and schoolbuses, while you can see your dog running away from you for 3 days. The fire department is officially termed basement inspectors. When is snows, you're stuck for 3 days +. Ranching country, cattle drives slow you down on the way to jobsites.

Developers,.. yes they need to consider the laws, so also the occasional homeowners, except that laws are normally placed for good reasons such as safety, health and so on. They should be worked with, not worked around.

I've , ah,.. written at least a few local articles and my work allows me to influence a few of those ecologically sustainable etc. rural visions while working in conjunction with LEEDS buildings...
thanks,
edzard

I guess you could say that all of these terms are interchangeable because they all mean the same thing but so much depends on who is using them and the culture (country/time) wherin they are being used.
If you are writing an article I think you have to pick one term and stick with it but explain how you are using it.
BALI (British Association of Landscape Industries) canvassed the English Yellow Pages to change one of its headings from 'Landscape Gardeners' to 'Landscapers' to distance themselves from gardeners. When I came to Canada and told someone what I did (design and construct gardens) they said that I was a landscaper and when I told someone else that I was a landscaper they said "Oh you clear snow".
F L Olmstead first used the term 'Landscape Architect' to describe what he considered a profession, the term had been used before but rather loosely. It was not exactly what he meant but was the closest he could think of and still only vaguely describes what a LA does.
The word Ricky mentions above (the Dutch word landskip) roughly translates as 'view' so it's English equivelant 'landscape' doesn't exactly describe what we mean by it today either.
When an English person says 'garden' they mean the whole yard, whereas an American means what in England would be called a flower bed. This makes a 'garden designer' something less in America than in England. A landscape designer is often mistaken for a landscape architect and a garden architect is equally as mixed up as the other terms.
If you have people knocking on your door begging you to design their garden you might proclaim,as Gertrude Jekyll did, that she was 'only a gardener'. On the other hand if you needed to drum up business you might want to call yourself something more exotic like 'Feng Shui Consultant'.
These are some of the reasons why I feel it necessary to briefly state what term you will be using in your article and what it means.

Nice refresher and then some INKcognito,.. and appreciated.
and i understand it, very close to the separations I require.
Except for the FS consultant, ... this subject has about the same respect that runnin' neckid un'er th'moon ahowlin' does in these parts.
And this is 'landscape' chapters in a country gardening book, previously published, being rewritten. The conundrum is space, a garden may be a few acres in reference, not unusual...
I'll think on this for a space,
thanks - edzard

Edzard -

I heartily endorse Inky's advice that you pick the terms you are using, explain what they mean, and stick to them. (It's a tool that lawyers find essential - e.g. you'll usually see, in Acts of Parliament, a section that begins - "In this Act "xxxxx" means - .....". or it may even say - "..xxxx includes ....yyyy".)

These sites make Inky's observations on expressions like "Landscape Gardener" all the more cogent -

http://www.gardenvisit.com/b/brown1.htm

http://www.landscape.gre.ac.uk/lguide/list.htm

http://www.aila.org.au/information/landscape-architecture/historyhendry/history-hendry.htm

http://www.asla.org/nonmembers/What_is_Asla.cfm

Just to add one more expression to this topic - how about the expression "Japanese Garden Design"?

Herb

Thanks Herb for the links and thoughts,..
and beyond the personal, the expression 'Japanese Garden Design' seems both adequate and yet very inadequate.

Japanese Garden Design includes human ergonomics with/from/as pattern language, architecture, interior design, urban design details to subdivision design, in addition to xeriscaping, container (limited root) gardening, indoor courtyards -> roof gardens, to watergardens with some 'park' gardens including riparian areas.

Roth coined Sukiya Living as an alternate use-name. Is it adequate?

though, I feel this is often misdirecting, in its limitation, as it covers an architectural period/typology and 'what' was going on at that time, rather than encompassing accepted 'disciplines' that are 'accepted' by us...

In other words, when will Japanese 'garden' design be recognised as what all is included, as mentioned above, or a name used that synthesizes architecture and landscape + urban human ergonomics,...
= environmental design.
--and in some places is still relatively new in accredition.

It would be better to change this forum to Enviromental Design, yet difficult to say, 'I have an environmental design garden at home' --which does not have the savoir faire of 'Japanese Garden' (for what is expected).
Which, if taken in a universally humanistic relation, is Japanese only by virtue of the associations (cultural etal) placed within it. Then it becomes a Japanese garden again.
(again-, tired sigh,.. what happens then to 'inspired & 'style'?.. the mixed mutated medley of symbolic surf n' turf?)

I would need to side with environmental design...
even over landscape architecure, landscaping or gardening (art).
edzard

Edzard,

Are we discussing what you & I would like to call things, or are we discussing how readily people who may buy your book will understand what you're saying?

Like you, I know what Roth's talking about when he writes "Sukiya Living" because I've been reading his journal for several years - and Roth has (as Inky would advise) explained what he means by it. But I'll lay odds that 99% of the public have never heard of Sukiya Living.

'Inspired' and 'style' on the other hand are words that 99% of the public do understand, so (with a reciprocal, weary sigh) I can't follow why you're still gnawing at that tired bone.

'Environmental design' rings various bells because the 'environment' has been the subject of loud & fashionable controversy for years. But what bells will it ring? Used as the title of a book sitting on a bookstore shelf, it would, to me and I'm sure to many other people, imply that the book's topic was probably the science of minimising industrial pollution. Or maybe the science of keeping the interiors of houses warm in cold climates while using the least fuel. Or some such topic.....

Herb

Herb,..
book chapters are an aside.
-and the Japanese gardens do provide cooling, and heat retention, pollution reduction and all that. :)) now why under-rate the gardens..???

I & S words I gnaw at because all it takes for any word to catch on is the continuous use of said word.. usage, marketting, the only reason people do follow the words.
And like any people, they can be re-educated, according to Roth, who sees part of the equation.

so what is Sukiya Living having read it for several years? Shall we change to using it as a moniker?
edzard

Edzard,

Eh?

I'm afraid we're back to the case of a chicken trying to talk to a duck.

Herb

hmmm, Herb, not following...
seems straight forward to me..
edzard

I think someone needs a translator.

... :) always do..

John -

A translator would be helpful. But since nobody's volunteered to translate, maybe I should explain my difficulties -

1. "book chapters are an aside" My guess is that was a reference to those words in Edzard's posting of Sun, Jan 16, 05 at 16:28. But I still can't get any much meaning out of it.

2. "I & S words I gnaw at because all it takes for any word to catch on is the continuous use of said word.. usage, marketting, the only reason people do follow the words."

I take it that this is about the meanings of the words, 'inspire' and 'style'. But why does he refer to words 'catching on'? 'Inspire' and 'style' are not words that have recently 'caught on'. They're well and long established, so to me, describing them as 'catching on' doesn't make sense..

And what meaning should I get from "usage, marketting, the only reason people do follow the words."? Of course 'inspire' and 'style' are in common usage but what has 'marketing' got to do with their meaning, other than perhaps broadening it a bit in some contexts? Is he still arguing that it's wrong to say that Reed Maddem were inspired by Zen style?

3. "And like any people, they can be re-educated, according to Roth, who sees part of the equation."

It's obvious that Roth is doing his best to educate people about the meaning of 'Sukiya living', but what has that got to do with the word 'inspiration' or the word 'style?

Is Edzard saying that English speakers need to be re-educated about how they should use the word's 'style' and 'inspire'?

Somebody please explain to the duck what the chicken's on about.

Is English Edzard's native language?

No. His native tongue is a kind of Pidgin Swahili with a semantic content of a root according to place, time, and participant reference, which substantially affects the basic semantic content of the root.

In other words, an asymmetrical syntax that gradually lulls you into despair

Jack

Forgive my silliness ;)

Now I feel a need to step in to rescue this thread from going the way of several here lately.

Q. Are we discussing what you & I would like to call things, or are we discussing how readily people who may buy your book will understand what you're saying?
A. book chapters are an aside.

Q 'Environmental design' rings various bells because the 'environment' has been the subject of loud & fashionable controversy for years. But what bells will it ring? Used as the title of a book sitting on a bookstore shelf, it would, to me and I'm sure to many other people, imply that the book's topic was probably the science of minimising industrial pollution. Or maybe the science of keeping the interiors of houses warm in cold climates while using the least fuel. Or some such topic.....
A. Japanese gardens do provide cooling, and heat retention, pollution reduction and all that. :)) now why under-rate the gardens..???

Q. 'Inspired' and 'style' on the other hand are words that 99% of the public do understand, so (with a reciprocal, weary sigh) I can't follow why you're still gnawing at that tired bone.
A. I & S words I gnaw at because all it takes for any word to catch on is the continuous use of said word.. usage, marketting, the only reason people do follow the words.

Q.Like you, I know what Roth's talking about when he writes "Sukiya Living" because I've been reading his journal for several years - and Roth has (as Inky would advise) explained what he means by it. But I'll lay odds that 99% of the public have never heard of Sukiya Living.
A. And like any people, they can be re-educated, according to Roth, who sees part of the equation.

Then a question from edzard that Herb does not answer
Q. so what is Sukiya Living having read it for several years? Shall we change to using it as a moniker?

The whole thread seems to be about the difference in meaning suggested by the varying titles we give to people who at first glance seem to be doing the same thing. We move on in an attempt to discover if we need a special name for someone who does this 'gardening' or 'landscaping' in a Japanese garden or if we should change the name 'Japanese gardening' completely.

Jack,.. you are absolutely inspiring... :)))
can I use that?
and no, English is my second language, though the first is a cradle language developed a smidge. The syntax is still there, or coming out more and more perhaps, while I work on refining the 3 main languages.

To my favourite Duck. You think too much.
Obviously brevity is not in the cards for me...
the books chapters are an aside, -->> as in they are beside this point (post) and not involved in any way shape or form.

inspire and style could be changed as easily as Roth is trying to do by inspiring us to use stylized Sukiya Living rather than Japanese gardens to describe Japanese gardens.
I used I & S, to show how I was _not using these except as an example of what was adopted 100 years ago. Gnawing is to show that it is only minor as in a skin itch. As in humour.

Reed Madden has nothing to do with this, you mentioned style and inspire, not I, therefore again, downplayed to I & S + gnawing for humour. Not getting into it.

The point is and the question I was asking is that since you have been following this Sukiya Living, I wonder if in your expert opinion, that it was applicable,.. and making the observation that Roth is doing marketing to have the words accepted,
which is akin to I & S, in that any, ... any words can be adopted if marketed correctly.. which is what marketers are capitalizing on, by selling 'New Zen Style', and 'Inspiring a room with Zen',.. which is marketing. Reinforcing what people wish to hear, books are titled that, every magazine on the stands has it,.. it gives people the freedom to have forgiveness of anything as long as it is expressed as 'my style' or I was inspired by...
but this is definitely _not about the I&S issue except in the marketing, repetition of the phrases,.. bring it peoples attention 10 times in 3 days, wins whatever you want for words.

what is difficult to understand about this?.. just read the words, join them together, and it will work...
there are times dear Duck where it is annoying, whenever you seem to wish not to discuss something.

just add together: Roth + new words + marketing compared to inadequate words.. he (Roth) has already determined that Japanese gardens as a term are lacking, therefore he is marketing Sukiya Living...
whats hard to follow?

in other words, just answer the last question, simple no?

"so what is Sukiya Living having read (about) it for several years? Shall we change to using it as a moniker?"

you've been reading his publication by your admission, therefore, please describe, what is Sukiya Living' and does it apply...???
whats hard about this???

b%@ck.

Much as I admire Inky's attempts to read Edzard's mind, I can't say that my understanding has become much clearer. But I'll leave Inky out of it.

I'll just say that (except for the question put to me about the meaning of 'Sukiya Living') I'm as puzzled as ever - nay, even moreso, (despite the fact that Jack suggested resemblance to Kiswahili - which I happen to speak, though I'm going rusty)! But the sense of despair is certainly there!

So I'll jump to the Sukiya Living question. In a nutshell, Edzard, I agree with Roth that it's a useful way to describe the integration of house and garden that often exists in Japan. Whether or not it will be easily comprehended if you use it in your own writings I can't forecast.

Herb

I think I'm going from pixxy to perplexxed,..
Inky did a fine translation, very fine,.... If I would have known, I could have saved the time, done something else... thanks INKcognito.

yet, Herb,..
my writings have nothing to do with it/this post. Nor would I use the Sukiya term in the writings, since I do not understand what he is encompassing with the term. They, the writings, which I had _really preferred not to mention anyway, are merely the catalyst to the greater question that came to mind while preparing notes.

To whit:
What are those terms about (gardening/landscaping), why do we use what we use. Are they adequate? Do they describe what we do, if the 'Japanese' is not mentioned?

- - do we write in and say, "I wish to build a Japanese Landscape Garden",.. ?
no,.. posters use, "I wish to build a Japanese Garden, or a Japanese Style garden, or - inspired by the Japanese garden"

Therefore, our' preferred term of Japanese Landscape Garden is not going to be used...
________
The Sukiya question is the only question at the moment, which, as the nutshell presented, doesn't help me understand it any better from your perspective of understanding.

? do I need to start a thread that says, "Sukiya Living: what is it?" to be able to develop responses???

Or, please suggest another name for Japanese gardens that works, because Japanese gardens is not being used either...
thanks
edzard

Edzard -

I think our mutual incomprehension may have been even greater that I'd feared. (After reading Inky's post a few more times, I've even started to think that, by listing the questions and the answers, he was demonstrating that he too could discern little connection between them!)

So - peering through the fog - and hoping that I'm getting something right - it seems to me that the essence of it all is that you're dissatisfied with expressions like 'Sukiya Living' , 'Japanese Garden Design', 'Japanese Landscaping' and so on & are looking for something more evocative. Or, in the case of 'Sukiya Living', a reasonably concise explanation of what it means. If so, I accept that my nutshell definition of 'Sukiya Living' may not be adequate, or may, depending on point of view, be regarded as simply wrong.

Having said all this, I think I'd better invite others to wrestle with all these and any other topics.

The duck, it's head spinning from the cacophony of clucking and quacking, is now going to retire to its pond for a while & simply watch the goings-on on the bank

Herb.

Maybe we should call this style/feeling/way of life
NIPPONESQUE

(I'm running and ducking)

Well, "Japonesque" has already been commandeered by a squadron of affluent ex-patriot Western ladies whose husbands do business in Japan. The wives have written a slew of home decor books on "Japanese style," and "Japonesque" is their pet word to describe the Nipponified abode and the art of living in it. ;)

Herb's years in dynastic China are obviously showing from his reticience, -- allowing the young'ins to duke it out before he needs to commit to which fence is being ridden...
lol...

I'm coming into this vast discussion very late.

It reminds me of great herds of animals gathering in a clearing, then scattering into the hills and woods, then regathering, then redispersing. Or a scrabble game half-finished, the game knocked to the floor, the pieces reassembled, then knocked down again. Does anybody else feel that way? I'm also a slow (and very seasonal, and occasional) reader, so I don't get through a whole lot of threads.

I call myself a designer of Japanese-inspired gardens. It's cumbersome and not at all elegant, but I can't think of a better way to say it (yet).

My problems with 'Sukiya Living' are three:

1. It looks too much like a crude epithet to anyone who doesn't know Japanese.

2. As people have pointed out, it requires that the garden be related to a certain style of architecture.

3. In my estimation the term evolved in a rather questionable way. The argument seemed to go something like this: Japanese gardens have absolutely nothing to do with religion, Japanese gardens have absolutely nothing to do with symbolism, Japanese gardens owe nothing to Chinese influences, and finally, Japanese gardens have nothing to do with Japan or Japanese culture. And then suddenly we have the arrival of the term 'Sukiya Living' to explain this strange new animal.

Lee

Lee;

You hit the nail right on the head but you forgot the "patent pending" after "Sukiya living".

Michael

Edzard, would it not be appropriate to call yourself a "Japanese Garden Designer"? It implies that you design and by association with that, build and maintain gardens that people would recognize as "Japanese" or at very least "Japanese inspired"
Enviromental garden design is too abstract- Xeriscaping could be considered enviromentally correct. Pruning is considered a small part of garden maintainence. Sukiya Living might mean volumes to a select few (maybe more than the average on this forum) but doesnt clearly identify the end goal to the average person, which if I recall correctly, is the group you were trying to reach out to in the first place neh?

Im thinking Japanese landscaper might be thought of as a guy in Tokyo that owns a loader or a Bobcat.

Am I the only one who thinks that Edzard is not asking people what they think he should call himself? (Professionally, that is. Let's not get personal here... :)) That maybe he's just putting the question out there so people can remember that it's not a settled issue, maybe discuss it a bit, maybe come to their own conclusions and then back them up? What's the name of that crazy toga-wrapped guy who used to do that?

Tongue-in-sleep-deprived-cheek
Mischievous-twinkle-in-bloodshot-eye
One-more-line-and-it's-insomniac-haiku

-Susan

chuckling,..
indeed,.. thankyou, yet i am not looking for something to call myself, refer to etc.
as Lee has kindly mentioned the foundation of the wording, -- is it not apparent that Sukiya architecture dates back to the 8C Nara and is based on mainland architectural types, specifically Chinese.
This was overlaid with Buddhist philosophy, and the outcome is more Japanese than Chinese, but lacks to following of certain edicts that were given by the Emperor relating to what the populace would live in and what the Japanese (Emperor) would live in. (white wood/black wood, tile roof vs thatch bark roof).
Then Sukiya was brought forward as a symbolic vanity to relive previous times...

I do note that Sukiya Living has changed recently to be termed 'Sukiya-style'. Is this because Style is readily accepted therefore Sukiya Style would have greater acceptance?
-which makes me wonder about what other 'styles' will be coined along with 'fists' which in arboriculture, is maning, or witches brooms..
(since he is an arborist, he would know this... why change it? Should there not be the same resistance to changing maning to fists as there is changing Japanese Style gardens to Japanese gardens?)

(on the other hand, kudo's, that this last issue is by far one of the best ever, - specifically, I congratulate him on providing some well researched information, with significantly little of his own opinion added in.)

I only wonder about the constant changes in nomenclature for things that already exist and question the adoption of new terms when old ones sufficed quite adequately, or do they?.

Translated for those that may miss the point, why is there so much redefining taking place? with words that have no meaning in the industry, or even related industries?
presumably as he suggests, he is redefining the professionals to use his words, creating a new profession in his terms, rather than to have a smattering of Japanese words that actually are used in an already functioning industry.

Do we want new names for things?
Should Japanese be used to describe Japanese techniques or should these words be translated to English, often poorly, or should new use words be invented like Sukiya or fists, or bullseye or do we meekly accept the marketed mass wording?
edzard

I had no idea we were discussing the JOJG again....boring.

I make gardens for a living, whatever the brief, the budget, the site or the client I maintain my own personal motivation which includes my religious belief's my philosophy and whatever talent I possess. I don't become a Japanese garden designer when I design a Japanese garden nor do I wear tweeds when asked for an English garden. I would hope that someone who held the views that created the forms we associate with traditional Japanese gardens, be that zen or not, would hold to that same integrity whatever they were doing. The difficulty in explaining what that is exactly is not new, what is new is the notion that merely calling it by a particular name makes it so. It is the motivation or inspiration for creating gardens that move us that we should be trying to emulate not wasting time looking for a name to call it.
As mike has said more than once, to find out what makes a genuine Japanese garden it is necessary to start by connecting with the spiritual force that drove the maker. No, I am not saying that you have to became a zen monk.

"As mike has said more than once, to find out what makes a genuine Japanese garden it is necessary to start by connecting with the spiritual force that drove the maker."

I agree with this statement but........, does this not apply to all types of gardens? Is your cottage garden more, less or equal to the spiritual impact of a Japanese garden to the client that requested the cottage garden? or is the J. garden by definition (or by design) a more spiritual experience? More correctly, does any other type of gardener/landscaper/designer worry/plan or plot this more than a person who sets out to design/build/maintain a Japanese garden?

Sorry if I wasn't clear Steve but that is what I thought I said.

we weren't, it just popped up as an example... I wasn't concerned so much about who, just what they were doing as related to terminology... and how marketing affects terminology.

"More correctly, does any other type of gardener/landscaper/designer worry/plan or plot this more than a person who sets out to design/build/maintain a Japanese garden?" steve...

If I read correctly INKcognito, you observed that they all do... therefore was Steve asking others?
then I would have to say no, most do not put in the same amount of worry/plan, though I would think that each individuals experience is their own, and work very hard to achieve the best that they can with what knowledge they have. Some have more, some have less, most are satisfied ( it seems) to always see areas of improvement. They're gardeners...
However, I'm can't speak for other professionals who have their own criteria for consumer satisfaction.
edzard

If this confuses you more, or clarifies the situation: I am working on an Associates of Applied Science degree in LAndscape Gardening. The courses include design, maintenence, plant propagation and Identification, greenhouse production, as well as fruit and vegetable production.
The career field that can be entered is fairly broad at that point.

The duck has waddled (but only for a moment) from the pond to the bank & draws attention to the well-known expression 'market gardening''.

It says that it has never heard of 'market landscaping' and enquires whether this throws any light on the difference.

I happened to look 'landscaping' up on the Internet & came across this site. Here are some bits from it -

"We are committed to the ecological and social transformation of the urban landscape..... We ........merge design expertise with ecological strategies, and offer a synthetic, sustainable approach to the built environment........ Our goal is to ........design with both the spatial mesh of natural systems and the quality of human habitats in mind. We imagine how the structure and function of nature can inform design decisions at the level of the detail, the site, and the bioregion...... We understand and enhance connections between ecological systems and public infrastructures to create dynamic, textured outdoor spaces, in concert with long-term, phased strategies for their implementation."

I have no idea what things like "ecological and social transformation" and "Spacial mesh of natural systems" and "synthetic, sustainable approach to the built environment" - actually mean. And what, I wonder, are "dynamic, textured outdoor spaces"? They sound rather like places such as Ryoan-ji with their raked gravel, though I very much doubt that's what's meant.
.....Click here to see what you can make of it.

Herb,
Welcome to the wonderful world of " The Landscape Architects Philosophical Statement " .
Your above link is a pretty good example of the typical GSD graduates biz'ness statement , but not one of the best that has ever been written ( no mention of paradigm or visceral spatial organization.. tisk tisk ! )

To really get a grasp of what is expected from a GSD grad's philo' statement one should read the masters work such as Hargreaves , Walkers or Van Valkenburgh .
... Major eye rolling material at its very best !

P.s. If you want to read some more real crock of crap I might be able to dig up my phyco babble statement that I had to write while at the GSD.... something to do with 'the higher order of structural components of natural systems '.... ya de ya de ya da...

The GSD mantra: " The more abstract the better ".

as a matter of fact, we even had a newsletter called " Abstracts", I always found that to be curiously hysterical.

Egads--pretentious words-even more pretentious web site- avant garde gardening anyone? Please, Promise to shoot me if I post anything resembling the techobabble on that web site.

**/me wanders aimlessly around garden looking for "the spatial mesh of natural systems" in his own garden- (realizes he wouldn't know it if he tripped over it)**

Ah! Anti-intellectualism, how American. The word is not the thing, this we all know, but how else do you describe the thing if not with words? And when the thing only has an abstract form because it is a concept then the words used to describe it are of necessity, abstract. I think they went a bit overboard with "spatial mesh" but otherwise I see no problem. What they say they provide is a sensitivity to materials and site that goes beyond the mundane which is a good aim surely.
Incidentally, 'abstract' can also mean summary.

If I may be so bold as to correct myself- I was trying to interject a bit of humour into a fairly dry topic- I obviously missed the mark- I was implying that the rampant overspeak (IMHO) seemed to be aimed at a corporate board rather than a humble gardener. Sorry to sound "Anti-intellectual"

By the way, you can tell from the way I spelled humour, Im Canadian, not American....

Steve -

I think you've hit a nail on the head - the pretentious language is intended to impress.

I think "the spatial mesh of natural systems" is especially hilarious. It wouldn't be out of place in Private Eye -

Click for Pseuds Corner

Forgive me for jumping in late, and for not having any real research to back up my in-all-honesty,-not-that-humble-opinion. ;)

Back to the basic question, landscape vs garden, I've given a lot of thought to places that I think of -- or that others refer to as "landscape", and places that are thought of as "gardens." About the only really consistent difference I can think of is that we use "landscape" when we're refering to decorative control of land that is not used for food production, transportation routes, recreation , wildlands or buildings. "Garden" implies a personal purpose, a relationship . When we were farming full time, often my garden held the same crops as the fields, but the field crops certainly weren't a "garden". The difference was the relationship to it. I think that's why the Oregon Garden in Silverton, OR is so-called instead of the Oregon Arboretum. The designers wanted to convey a personal feeling, even though the place is huge. Or the Japanese Garden in Portland -- conveys a different expectation than if it were the Japanese Landscape Center, eh? Just a thought.

Susan

Herb,
It could have been entitlted ;
Extracts of Abstracts on Archi-speak.

Yes indeed, it is expected that every landscape architects natural rite of passage has to include pretentious verbage to gain recognition amongst his peers.

Archi-speak is often required because the work itself does not connect to the people on its face value.
The elevated abstracts are inpart required to explain the work because at times the work does not have the depth and breath to speak on its own behalf.

Of course, there are plenty of works of fine design + craftsmanship that also come equipt with the archi-speak babble , many of those designers have used archi-speak for so long that it is now either systematically incorporated into their speech or is expected to accompany all their works.

It's just considered de rigueur at a certain level of practice.
Heaven forbid any blue chip designer speaking in pedestrian terms. .. for shame for shame.

When we use short-hand, like 'landscape gardener' or 'garden designer' we are dependant upon people knowing what we mean and what is done, although in reality it is nebulous. It would be handy if you could roll up one of your gardens and carry it under your arm ready for when someone asks what you do and then you could unroll it and say "That". Some would not be satisfied though, and would want to know how and why and so on. And then the trouble starts.
When edzard started this thread he was not sure if any existing combination of words described the act of creating a Japanese garden, suggesting, of course that there was something unique involved. It is in the short-hand version that the problem lies. The passage that has brought out much duck walking (or pedestrianism) and quacking, attempts to describe what someone is attempting to do in a way that tries to avoid a confusing short-hand.

Why not just use Japanese Garden builder? Is there a fear that one will not be able to explain that we can also do the design work? We may even have to explain later that we also do maintenance. Edzard specifically stated he would not use Japanese Gardener. Not aimed at edzard in particular but why be ashamed of using the word Japanese? If we are talking about the design, construction, development, care and conservation of japanese gardens exclusively then I see no reason to try to re-invent the nomenclature. If not then I can see where it would limit or confuse the issue.

Greg

chuckle...
I'm hoping that everyone benefited from the responses as much as I, having found them to be quite illuminating.
Susan touches in on an important aspect of the ascribed relationship with a space that shifts perception from landscape to the personalization to garden. I can appreciate that and wish to think on it for a while.

INKcognito as always, summates intent superbly, yes, I find the wording inadequate.
As most people have a different perception of the words 'japanese gardening' and the understanding to 'most' people seems to be a genre of stylistic ritualistic placement.
this affects many levels of people and circumstances.
By shallow example, most clients would not engage a Japanese Gardener to build a maze garden, or a flower garden, thinking that the maze and flower borderis not in the repertoire of the Japanese Gardener, by what is commonly seen and understood.
Similarily, when a client asks for maintenance, ie: tree pruning to be done, and you mention that you are a Japanese gardener, they immediately fear that their trees will be bonsaied to the extreme, rather than tailored to their needs.

The term 'Japanese', is superfluous to the term garden. If-since Japanese gardens are pan-cultural, then the methods apply to all cultures, therefore the Japanese can be dropped.

This isn't a question of nomenclature that one is ashamed of considering I'd have to change my occupation on my passport, etc. and I do use the term Japanese Gardener.

But people in general are ascribing and reinventing new terms for which the old sufficed adequately... or did they?
The UK has Fusion gardens, in which Japanese techniques are being employed in the way in which they should be. By technical definition, they are Japanese gardens.
Roth wishes to use Sukiya Style (Living), perhaps for a Period genre (? I'm not sure and do not wish to put words in mouths when not understanding the intent.
N. America wishes to use Japanese Style gardens or Japanese Inspired gardens.
i was hoping for an explanation of basis for garden vs landscaping... then rightly the Japanese additon, if there is one.

I simply wished to understand how people see landscape or garden, as ?what?? to each other, related, defined... whatever, to eventually apply this to the Japanese garden, since with everyone inventing and describing conceptual needs,
How does one explain to someone what one does as a Japanese Gardener? A decision is made long before one can explain that gardeners are capable of design, maintenance (returning to what was, over and over) or development..
and as noted above, maintain differs from develop. - and the trouble begins again...

seems to be all in the marketing and the length of a burning match.
thanks for the illuminating insights...
edzard

Hello edzard and all,

Of course we know that the whole concept of language is symbolic by nature. An array of sounds uttered in a specific sequence and then transcribed into an arrangement of letters is agreed to be the equivalent of a thing. It is not necessary for it to actually sound or look like the thing that it represents...(edzard, you once showed me a Japanese Garden consisting of four symbols typed from your keyboard.)

I think the term 'Japanese Garden' in a sense transcends the physical garden itself and actually becomes a repository for the multitude of ideas about the traditions, methods, materials, and intentions which finally result in a Japanese Garden. For me, the term 'Japanese Garden' actually encompasses a whole philosophy of design...consider it Niwa-do, 'Way of the garden'. And being such, at a certain point the category becomes so diverse that any label almost becomes arbitrary....unless of course it is your livelihood. ;)

But... it is certainly worth considering.

To me, a garden implies intimacy and cultivation in its broadest sense. We are involved in cultivating the garden as it has historically cultivated us, beginning with the Garden of Eden. As we participate in a garden, we develop a symbiotic relationship of giving to and receiving from the garden both physically and metaphorically. We sustain the garden through planting, weeding, feeding, and the garden sustains us through the production of food and nurtures us with opportunities for insight.

In contrast, a landcape seems distant, broad, and impersonal. A landscape is naturally occuring and continues to exists on its own, leaving room only for the relationship of observer. While potentially beautiful, it leaves me longing...

After considering some alternatives, i find the term 'Japanese Garden' adequate. It gives credit to the origin of the design (as many other styles do) instead of trying to encapsulate the whole of the philosophy in a single phrase which would probably turn out to be not that catchy anyway... 'Vegatative Installation'... 'Essential Cultivation'... 'Environmental Architecture'... ;)

-christian m.