I definitely prefer to believe that you are a troll than that any literate person could possibly be so ignorant.

Your kind is not welcome here.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/organic.asp

You could also look up the definition of "political."

Even when gardening in the privacy of your own home,
it is better to stick to the facts.
A successful gardener does their research
instead of listening to old wive's tales and myths.

I apologize for my first post as I see that Lou has been a contributing member of this forum. I have a lot going on right now and impulsively overreacted. Lou may actually be genuinely concerned.

If someone tells me how to delete a post I would be happy to do it.

In the meantime hopefully snopes will be helpful.

I was surprised Snopes had nothing on this, but Lou buddy, you've been duped....This thing pops up every now and then but I don't think Michelle Obama would appreciate it ;-)

Tom

A word of note, I did talk with my Senator about the bill.

I was only trying to make people aware because as much as I enjoy my gardening and sharing it's bounties, I feel others enjoy theirs too.

I'm sorry if I have offended some people on this but I find it very important to me as I have farmed all my life except when I served my country in service.

Thank You for your patience with me, Lou

I have heard of this bill before, but I've never taken the time to read it until now. Not content to trust Snoopes.com's interpretation I just finished reading the text online.

Essentially the law would give the newly created Food Safety Administration (like the FDA) the authority to regulate "food production facilites." A food production facility is defined in the bill as a "farm, ranch, orchard, vineyard, aquaculture facility, or confined animal-feeding operation." The new agency will require farms to keep written food safety plans, and will determine the minimum standards they must keep for growing, harvesting, sorting, and storage operations and the minimum standards these farms have to follow for fertilizer use, nutrients, hygiene, packaging, temperature controls, animal encroachment, and water. It also gives the new agency the right to inspect the farm's records and to physically inspect the farm.

Now here is the issue. The bill does not define the term "farm." I can tell you this is probably intentional because the bill does take the time to define the term "food." If the bill passes there will probably be lawsuits to determine how to interpret the term "farm." If I had to guess I would say the target of this vagueness is not the home gardener, but rather the small local farmer. It could be construed to apply to the home gardener though or anyone who sells their extra produce. I doubt the government has the resources or desire to enforce it against a home gardener however.

A small local farmer may not have the money or resources to comply with all of the regulations this new agency will come up with. There is one provision in the bill that provides the new agency should allow "a reasonable period of time for compliance, taking into account the needs of small businesses for additional time to comply." Personally I worry about how this law would be enforced. It seems to potentially place an unfair burden on small local farmers. I don't believe the small farmer is responsible for the nation's food safety problems. I think the bill should be amended to exempt from the definition of "farm" anyone who has under a certain amount of sales annually or under a certain number of employees.

You can read the bill at the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Bill

My statement of 'THIS IS NOT POLITICAL' means to me that this thread was not started to tweak a person's political affiliation but was a grave concern as to gardening and/or farming.

Tom, This is a Senate bill that is presently being debated in the Senate and not a reoccurring 'thing' that pops up now and then. This vaguely worded bill I believe could have a negative impact as to the many things we enjoy about gardening including our local farmers markets in many of our cities, the many roadside farm vegetable stands in the countryside, the tropical fruit festivals we all enjoy, and possibly the county fairs, etc.

My only intent was to make people aware of the changes that could come about through the implementation of a badly worded bill from the definition of a home garden as a farm on up to the mega sized farms and the regulation there of. A twisted magistrate could use this as a way to deny households of having a backyard garden as many (if not all) of the HMO's have done.

I find the people here in Florida are overly sensitive to anything they deem as 'Political'.

I want to thank everybody that has helped me adjust to the very different way of gardening here in Florida and I will go back to lurking rather than posting.

Lou

Lou - This used to be a great website. Lately though, it's turned into just another cesspool where idiots like you've seen above jump all over anyone they disagree with. I used to be more active here and now just pop in occasionally to see that many of the a$$hole$ still haven't found the toilet paper. The moron that first replied is the leader of a gang of cretins that would be better off keeping their opinions in their heads rather than putting them out for all to see.

I think it's a shame that even on a garden site people have to get so politically sensitive as to try to bully a person that they think is "on the wrong side". Lou, don't stop posting, you are being bullied and you have just as much right to post as anyone else as long as you don't abuse other people, which is obviously not the golden rule that others are following here. If a person doesn't agree with a post or thinks it is false information, can't we find a way to debate in a civilized manner other than to act like a bunch of wrestlers in a cage match?

1. I guess no one saw my apology, I stand by that.
2. This is definitely political:
"another hideous attempt to place more power into the hands of centralized government and robs individual citizens and states."

Seeing a statement like that set me off and I thought Lou was a troll trying to stir things up. Based on what else was going on in my life I overreacted. Again please accept my apologies.

If you know how to delete a post I would be happy to do it.

Let me clear it up even more. From time to time we have non contributors who come here and say things just to upset people. Like the "Florida is not in the tropics" guy. When I saw the "this is not political" extremely political statement, and I saw that Lou was a new member, I thought that was what he was and I quickly tried to shut him down.

I have never ever told a contributing member that they don't belong here and I never knowingly would. I will be more careful in the future.

Personally I know many of us would of course prefer that posts like this went in conversations but I am certainly not the moderator. I don't enjoy coming here to talk about gardening and being bombarded by anti-gov't sentiment. We get enough of that every where else. Even if the statments were consistent with my own beliefs I would still say this is not the appropriate forum.

I would also note that, regardless of the merits of the individual bill, I prefer that the federal gov't not leave food safety to the individual states. If we would fund the FDA adequately we would have less problems with salmonella, E-coli etc.

Lou I hope you will accept my apology.

Dear All:

I really like this forum for two reasons. First, Florida is such a unique state for gardening that most of the information out there for the rest of the country is useless. Getting info from the experiences of local Florida gardeners is really helpful. Second, everyone on this form is usually nice and cordial. It is a pleasant positive environment unlike many other online forums.

Let us try to keep it civil. The original poster has apologized for the tone of her post. We all make mistakes and I think we should stop fighting about it and dividing into factions. Lou, please come back:( I enjoy reading your post contributions.

Michele (greenacresgirl) - You should have learned from this post that you are an idiot. You are the sole reason I will never have another GW swap. You are the sole reason many of the old-timers have left GW. Go ahead and post something else stupid to reply to this one; you just can't resist showing the world your lack of concern for others. I've met some stupid people in my life, but you are the worst of the lot.

fawnridge, forgive me, I am just a bystander....You might be mad at some posters, but you yourself are not the most civil of all.
You have driven people away plenty times with your condescending "let me tell you how one should create a garden, newbie" attitude. I am just trying to show you that none of us are perfect....
You are opinionated and while there is nothing wrong with that, I doubt the posters you are chastising have ever called you openly what you called them: idiot, gang of cretins, a$$hole$, moron - I am sorry, but that is really uncalled for.

Lou-If you will relent and post again, you mentioned you contacted your Senator about the bill, what was his response? Maybe someone should contact Meek, Crist, and Rubio and see where they stand on the bill.

Anyone read the bill and support it as written? Certainly we need some additional food safety standards, but I think the big companies are the worst offenders.

Lou, I hope you and everyone else continues to post. We all have different personalities and likes and dislikes, but gardening is the passion we all share!:)

wallisadi- That is so cute did you make it yourself?

Everyone - my apologies for losing my cool. We learned on Friday that Karen has cancer; the last person in the world anyone would ever expect to have it. I'm having trouble dealing with the awful reality that she might not be around forever and I really shouldn't post stuff when I'm this upset. Again, my apologies to everyone for the stupid stuff I wrote.

We learned on Friday that Karen has cancer; the last person in the world anyone would ever expect to have it

I am so sorry to hear that. Please disregard my nagging post as well. I guess it is an important reminder that we all need to realize that other people go through things we might not realize :(

I am really really sorry about the news, it is heartbreaking and sad. I hope the prognosis is good and it is great you are there for Karen to support her through this very difficult time...

Sincerely, Olya

I skimmed over the bill, and as usual, it's pretty much a lot of legalese that even the members of Congress won't actually bother to read, but there is a definition of "food production facility" in there that reads "any ranch, farm" etc. - sorry for not having the exact text, I tried to copy and paste the HTML code and the forum wouldn't allow it in for some reason.
So, I guess it depends on how broad this statement is meant to be taken as to whether it includes home gardens or not. How idiotic it would be for the FDA to be investigating our little hobby garden plots when all this poison food is being sent to us from China, Mexico, etc. I agree that home gardeners shouldn't be forced into this kind of big-government regulation, but it might oversee large facilities to keep us from buying salmonella-infected salad and God knows what else at the grocery store. By the way, Fawnridge, my prayers will include you and Karen.

I accept the apologies, and please accept my apology for being 'hot' in what I first posted after speaking with the senator (who will remain unnamed) treated me as a child that couldn't possibly understand, and not worry my head (so to speak). I do worry about the laws that are hastily drafted and incomplete in structure and could be used in later years to bite each and every one of us in the butt. The hatred I see between parties in Washington is now spreading out to the people and we fight one to another rather than uniting in spirit and cause. We ALL love our country and want well thought out laws to protect the common people from mega conglomerates that only see the bottom line. My fear is of hastily drafted incomplete laws not bantered about between the legislators to come up with a well thought out bill to protect and not something that is incomplete and could be used against us in future years.

Again, please accept my apology and let us all work and play together. My prayers go with you towards your recovery. Lou

Thank you Lou.

Ricky, Please let Karen know that I wish her a full and fast recovery. I am sure everyone here feels the same.

Michelle

Oh, for Pete's sake folks, don't get your knickers all in a knot.... I'm sure we are all over-reacting to something that was very well-intentioned and meant to protect the public from some very dangerous and deadly pathogens, and nothing to do with the Govt. 'taking over' from citizens their right to grow veggies in their back-yard.... the sky is not falling and the world is not coming to an end....I for one do think we need to inspect and examine the food that is put out there for sale, because too many people have become very ill and/or died from un-regulated edlbles... the FDA and the other Govt. agencies need adequate funding to do their job.... just my personal opinion..... sally

Sally- I agree that more federal oversight of the big corporate farms and the food industry is needed. All of the recent news headlines demonstrate this. However, I feel this bill would place the exact same regulatory burdens on the small local farmer as it puts on megafarms. Big companies have teams of lobbyists, accountants, and lawyers to protect their interests but the increased regulation may hurt the small local farmers. I think the bill should be amended to correct the vagueness and exempt local farmers or at least put a lesser burden of compliance on them. The devil is in the details. I think most of us would agree that putting small local farmers out of business is not a good thing for the nation's food supply.

Although some of the opponents to this bill may seem a bit overdramatic in their tone, I do think they bring attention to an important issue. Lou's post did make me finally read the bill afterall.

I am glad to see we are all gardenweb friends again. Ricky, I am sorry to hear about your troubles. I have said a prayer for you and your family.

Thanks amberroses, you make a lot of sense.... I didn't read the Bill and know nothing of it, but I remember reading abt. how the FDA has been hamstrung and funding-cut, and how they have just certain categories to regulate, and it doesn't include food like fish, another Agency regulates that and their funding has also been cut, and most of our fish comes from a third-world country and impossible to inspect, so we have no idea if any of the food we eat is 'clean' ..... or even edible to begin with.... this includes ALL of our food, remember the spinach from Calif., remember the green-onions from Mexico, remember the tomato-scare from Fla. ( without basis).... the inspections and regulations were cut and starved-for-funding because big-business objected to any restrictions... hopefully this Bill is addressing that problem..... sally

Lou, I sorry, I would never deliberately want to offend you. I just don't put much credence in this thing passing....

Holy Crap Ricky! I've been married 29 years now and as we approach retirement occasionally this fear hits me, what would it be like without Cathy? I wish I knew what to say....

Tom

Tom - We're at 31 together. Every day from this day forward becomes that much more special. Hey, we're just like flowers, we like it better above ground than below.

Lou,

You're not alone. Stand. And NEVER apologize for protecting Freedom!

I found this on Snopes. The bill # is different but sounds the same. It clears up some questions.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/organic.asp
Ricky my thoughts and prayers are with you and Karen.
Nancy

I read the Snopes review of the bill. I guess it just depends on your level of faith in the US government. The bill is indeed vague on the particulars and gives this new agency the authority to determine the specifics of how it will be applied. I think how you view this bill is determined by how you view the government. There are some people who believe the government will act reasonably and in the best interests of everyone when making and applying rules. There are some people who believe the government will take every bit of authority given it and screw it up.

I ask why are we forced to accept a poorly drafted bill when it is easy enough to amend it and clarify the scope of its authority?

My concern is what happened in the past, when i was younger on camping trips I would be able to take my gold pan and pan the streams for small gold flecks. I would show my kids how to pan for gold. The govt. in it's haste drafted a poorly written bill supposedly to limit large scale mining companies from destroying the countryside in national parks. The bill they hastily wrote banned everything having to do with mining, including the recreational prospector with his little pan the size of a dinner plate. Now I cannot take my grandkids out to play in the streams and show them how to pan. Granted now in some areas through many many years of protest the recreational prospector has opened up a few areas where he can pan... but (yes the big but) he has to get a permit from the HEAD park ranger only, state the exact time and location of his intention, name all who will be panning, and the permit is only for a few hours for that day. Then the next day he has to go through the same procedure again, providing he can find the head ranger. You know... the normal govt. red tape. The panning is not allowed in all the parks, just a very very few. I ask you just how much damage to the dirt in a stream can a ten year old do with a dinner plate size pan and a garden trowel when accompanied by an adult? I move way more dirt in my garden. The spring floods move way more dirt in streams than any recreational prospector. Anyhow this is why my concern for vaguely written bills, I for one do not trust the people who write the bills to take the time to do the right thing.

Yes we do need protection of our foodstuffs from the mega farmers and imported foods, no we don't need poorly written bills that leave most everything open to interpretation by inspectors and enforcers that could be subject to graft by the lobbyists.

Lou

Lou, it's just like when they passed the bill that saltwater fishing now requires a permit. That was one of the VERY FEW activities that poor people could afford, take the family out on a pier or on the shallows and fish. Now they can't afford to do that. MOST people - especially people who take the kids - catch and release or most of the time only catch one or two fish TOPS. I wrote Gov. Crist about this, who signed the bill, and his peeps sent me back a reply that I should contact the state legislature who created the bill in the first place. Families are hard-pressed to find activities now that don't cost so much they have to take out a loan, I just can't understand why this was necessary. It's a different world now, that's for sure. I love nature and don't want to decimate the species but give me a break on the occasional fisherman out there just trying to enjoy nature and get out of the rat-race and enjoy a simple pastime - that's not what is going to adversely affect the fish population.

My goodness, what the heck happened here? Lou, I too have enjoyed reading your posts. As far as investigating our little hobby garden plots when all this poison food is being sent to us from China, Mexico, etc. Where is the regulation for the imported foods? I see we all seem to want less "big government control"....so...
common everyone, lets settle down and continue to garden. :o)

I saw the news abt. the fishing-permit, but doesn't it exempt cane-poles ? Remember, these rules and Laws are passed by the people we elect.... we don't want our freedoms to be taken away but at the same time we want our environment protected and our foodstuffs to be safe, so when these Laws are passed are they taking away our 'freedoms' ?? we can't have it both ways.....sally

Remember, these rules and Laws are passed by the people we elect.... we don't want our freedoms to be taken away but at the same time we want our environment protected and our foodstuffs to be safe, so when these Laws are passed are they taking away our 'freedoms' ?? we can't have it both ways

Amen to that.

Wow, glad I've been a way for a few days and missed our members getting bent out of shape with each other. Thanks Lou for bringing the bill to our attention.
My put is that we do nothing to control so much of our imported foods like fish products, but on the other hand the food police have already shut down many great mom and pop operations.
I grew up on a dairy farm (100 milkers) and we sold bottled grade A raw milk. Then the laws changed to protect us, only pasturized milk could be sold, so we had to sell our milk to Sealtest. After a while the mega farms put us out of business totally. No one every got sick from our milk that I'm aware of and now some food professionals think we would be better off with raw milk.
Then my BIL's family raised pigs and butchered them near Charlotte, NC. Folks would drive all the way from Atlanta to buy their sausage. The farm police shut them down because their butchering required extra equipment that the small farmer could not afford.
This bill may not affect us from growing and giving away our garden items, but now my BIL runs a super vegetable farm and they go to a farmer's market every day of the week except Sunday during season. They also have a large following that signs up to get a basket of food every week for $20. I am very afraid this bill would shut them down because of the extra records and equipment required.
It's obvious that the current farm police do not keep the mega farms from making 1000's sick at one stroke and it is difficult to track where the food is coming from because of multi farms and markets.
Off my soapbox, but believe our government is really out of touch with reality. We've got a obvious "crook" on the governor's ticket, not sure about his opponent , she may be no better, but she has not had a competitor to expose her yet. I really would like to see someone rather than lawyer's writing our laws!
Off my soapbox and hope our government can stem the monster debt and unemployment but do not see that happening until the authorities quit playing politics before everything else.
lucky to have a marriage that has survived 54 years,
bernie

I do Genealogy and did a lot of research for Ancestors, etc., and learned that 100 years ago that to quiet a colicky baby they rubbed his teething with cocaine..it was available readily in corner-stores ( pharmacies).... my Ancestor had a push-cart in Philadelphia and bought fish from the docks and trundled it around all day without ice, in the heat of summer... milk was sold the same, a cart carried big tubs of milk and you went out and emptied some into your jug, flies and all..... I read in the paper that the FDA cannot shut down a bad vendor and depend on the 'self-policing' of the vendor..... eggs are 'regulated' by one Agency but the chickens are 'regulated' by another, and are also dependent on the farmer-vendor self-regulating and hopefully reporting problems.... witness thousands sickened by Salmonella inside the egg ! Of course, any 'regulation' depends on our elected officials passing or failing-to-pass Laws and Rules, and they are beholden to big-business with big pockets.... we sure do get what we vote for, if we elect these people what do we expect???..........sally

GWFlorida is the best. Just like a family it has disagreements but works them out. Thanks to those involved who took the time to respond, explaining their point of view and personal reasons as well.

TY Lou for bringing this topic to our attention.

Now..I'm going to have to contact my US senator to say I am against SB bill 510 until/unless it defines "farm" clearly and does not hurt small farmers or home gardeners.

amberroses said it well for me: think the bill should be amended to exempt from the definition of "farm" anyone who has under a certain amount of sales annually or under a certain number of employees.

Denise

I read the bill and did some research on the current law. IMO, all this bill would do, if passed, is take a lot of things that are already contained in current law but are being enforced by a hodgepodge of agencies and instead give a new agency responsibility for enforcing the laws aimed at protecting consumers.
The current legislative authority for the USDA and the FDA already contains most, if not all of this language - YOUR GOVERNMENT ALREADY HAS THIS POWER.
The concern, and the backstory behind legislation like this, is those agencies aren't doing enough to protect us because they are beholden to their "industry partners" - big businesses that guarantee that the regulations are easy for them to deal with while being difficult for small farmers to deal with, so they can push their small farmer competitors out of business.
As I read it, all this bill does is take the current laws regarding food safety and put them in the hands of an agency whose mandate is to protect consumers - someone we can go to if salmonella creeps into the egg supply to ask "what on earth happened?"
Does this law have the potential to shut down small organic farmser? Sure. So does the current law of the land. Ask any organic farmer. The red-tape requirements are insane at this point. And if your neighbor the chicken farmer is making a living without bothering with that, that's great for him, but he's violating the current law just as much as he would violate this law, if passed.
This really isn't bigger government than we already have. It's just government that isn't controlled by multinationals. Will it be corrupted by multinational corporate lobbyists? Probably.
But I repeat: your government already has this authority. The only substantive change is it puts that authority into the hands of an agency with a mandate to protect consumers. That is not the mandate of the USDA or the FDA at this point.

And Ricky, all the best thoughts heading your way.

Apparently there are two bills on this same issue currently being debated in Congress. The one I read and summarized, H.R. 875, would create a new agency, the Food Safety Administration. This is also the bill the earlier snoops.com link discusses. S.B. 510 (which is the one Lou posted about) gives the FDA more authority. My apologies for any confusion. Apparently I should actually read the title of the posts :)

Apparently both bills have the same concerns. The FDA wants greater authority. I still stand by my view that more supervision of large food farms is needed, but any legislation should exempt small farmers. There is a proposed amendment (the Tester amendment)that provides for this exemption, but it has not been added to the bill yet. A final version of S.B. 510 is expected to be voted on this month.

There is a good article on S.B. 510 in the link below for those interested.

Here is a link that might be useful: S.B. 510 article

Sorry bad link. Try this one.

Here is a link that might be useful: S.B. 510 article

must you McCarthyites interject your propaganda spin into everything?

nauseating.

MK, we can do without name calling, if you have nothing to comment regarding pro or con for this bill, then I would appreciate your keeping your feelings to yourself.

bernie

"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."...Benjamin Franklin

...just thought I'd toss that out, Happy Gardening!

"McCarthyite"-2. The use of unfair investigatory or accusatory methods in order to suppress opposition. -http://www.thefreedictionary.com

Just read this & thought others here might be interested as well - it's very interesting. Wondering is it the same bill? Strangely, the bill # is never mentioned.

Click the link to read the entire articlee.

From the NYT:

"Senate Bill on Food Safety Is Stalled
By GARDINER HARRIS
Published: September 18, 2010

WASHINGTON - After his mother died from eating contaminated peanut butter, Jeff Almer went to Washington to push for legislation that might save others from similar fates. And then he went again. And again. And again.

Nearly two years have passed since Shirley Almer's death. In that time, food contamination involving chocolate chip cookie dough and eggs has sickened thousands more.

But the Senate has still not acted to fix many of the flaws in the nation's food safety system - although a bill to do so has broad bipartisan support, is a priority for the Obama administration and has the backing of both industry and consumer groups. The House passed its version of the bill more than a year ago.

"It's so frustrating," said Mr. Almer, of Savage, Minn. "I don't even know who to blame."

The blame lies with a tight Senate calendar, a stubborn senator from Oklahoma and an unusual coalition of left- and right-wing advocates for small farmers who have mounted a surprisingly effective Internet campaign. Their messages have warned, among other untruths, that the bill would outlaw organic farming...."

Here is a link that might be useful: Stalled Bill