Try a Farm Supply(feed store) place for the milorganite and trace minerals,local garden center for 50lb bags of vermiculite,bed mix, and possibly maganese.

najoba,
If I may ask, why do you want the above items?
Ed

Have you had your soil tested? If you haven't, you may find you don't need some of these additives.

Brooke

Vermiculite is not a good soil ammendment. It compacts easily and does not add anything to the soil foodweb. Substitute Perlite, much better but not pretty in the soil. Pine bark looks natural in the soil breaks down and helps aeration while feeding the soil foodweb.

Superphosphate is too expensive, just use phospherous, most soils have enough phosphorous anyway. It is better to add wood products as mulch or compost to feed the fungi which in turn will make the phosphorous in the soil available to the plants.

Milorganite is just human manure baked and bagged. You can get it from about any agricultural or nursery supply. Horse manure is better.

Manganese can be found about anywhere, is usually sufficient in the soil but may be locked up due to pH issues or over application of inorganic salt based fertilizer which when used excessively will harm the soil food web and contribute to soil compaction and harmful microfauna in the soil.

Think of the soil nutrients as what is in the pantry, what is on the table and what the plant is eating. Most tests only test what nutrients are in liquid form i.e. what is on the table. Harsh chemical tests, Rheams/Morgan will test what is in the pantry, but not necessarily what is available to the plants. The Rheams/Morgan would tell you if you have enough phosphorous even if it is locked up in the soil.

A leaf assay test will tell you what the plant is actually getting and if it is deficient in the soils. Often a soil test will show extremly low nitrogen and phosphorous when in fact the plants are green and healthy. That is because they are only testing what is in solution, what is on the table, but not what is actually being taken up by the plant. If a plant has mycorizhal fungi the fungi has enzymes to take rock phosphate and convert it into a form the plant can use and then transport it through its hyphea to the plant. By putting superphosphate on the soil you are likely to kill the mycorizhal fungi and actually reduce the amount of phosphorous available to the plant.

So when you have the soil tested ideally you should use a test that will show the variety and volume of bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes and specifically the size and kind of nematodes you have. That will tell you the health of the soil and the bacteria and fungi have the nitrogen and other micronutrients the plants need. The protozoa and nematodes and some fungi are utilized by the plants to make the micronutrients available to them. A soil test that only tests for the 16 macro and micro nutrients will only tell you what is in solution, i.e. what is on the table but if it is in a form the plant cannot utilize it doesn't get eaten and often, especially in the case of nitrogen, leaches through the soil very quickly and into the watershed causing an algea or plankton bloom in the oceans.

In summary you need to know what shortage exist in the microbiology in the soil rather than the nutrients themselves. If you fix the soil foodweb the plants will be healthy. If you apply to much salt based fertilizers you will harm the soil foodweb and thus in the long run harm the plants. For example it is the bacteria and fungi that determine the soil pH. People often add lime or gypsum to adjust the pH but it will go right back to where the bacteria and fungi take it. By growing beneficial bacteria and fungi in the soil the pH is automatically maintained in the proper range to make the phosphorous and manganese available to the plants.

Wow,Jackarias, how interesting! And where do you obtain such tests? Do you think Texas A&M University might do them? Thank you for such a detailed explanation. I didn't know anything about all of that.

To our knowledge, the soil in our new "field beds" had never had chemical fertilizers added or any other man-made supplement. We are installing these beds where forest growth was removed several years ago.

There was a large amount of white clover growing in this area until we tilled it. I understand that it would add nitrogen to the soil, so I picked that spot to make our field beds.

Since I had read a soil recipe in a regional daylily on-line magazine, that is where I got the list of requirements that included the items I listed in the original post.

Our local farm supply store has none of these things I listed here. I have already tried. I'm not sure if I can find any of it even in Houston.

For the first two double rows, we incorporated peat moss, manure, and a small amount of bone meal and cottonseed meal. We added alfalfa pellets on top of the soil before we topped it with pine back mulch. Our new daylilies planted there two weeks ago are looking pretty good, considering the horrific heat wave we have been having.

We know our soil is acid, since we originally had many pines and oaks here. We've never had it tested. I bought a soil test kit recently, but haven't used it yet. The layer of topsoil in our daylily beds is not very deep. Underneath is red clay, if you dig deep enough.

We have excellent drainage. In fact, it may be too good, as we live on a hill.

We have still have one more 90' double row to prepare for our young seedlings, and I wanted to have the soil optimized for their growth.

where do you obtain such tests? Do you think Texas A&M University might do them?

I don't know anything about Texas A&M except football. The tests are available at the Soil Foodweb Inc. but I don't ever do soil tests any more. I can tell by the way the plants look if they are healthy or not and so can you. If they grow well, the foliage is dark with no yellow streaks especially in the veins then you are on the right track. Forget the fancy add ins. Use organic compost. It is hard to find good organic compost but the worst organic compost is better than the best chemical fertilizer. It is ok to throw on some 15.15.15 during the growing season as long as you don't put on more than 100 pounds per acre at a time. The rule is no more than 75#'s of saltiness. Since nitrogen is 1.25% saltier than sodium chloride the base then 15% nitrogen would have a value of about 19 plus 15 plus 15 makes about 50 pounds of salt in 100 pounds of 15.15.15 so you could put 150 pounds per acre on your property before you would start to do measurable harm.

Mulch heavily with coarse shredded tree material, I like cedar the best. Call a tree trimming company and see if they will dump the trimmings in your driveway for a small payment but make sure it is shredded so you can apply it. Places that supply material for making sand and cement often have a large selection of materials. Here A-1 soils has bins with various materials including compost, pearlite, potting soil mix, nitrogenized redwood, and many other materials. The key is to add as much organic as you can and use manures when ever practicle. Good compost will have bacteria. Bacteria will have 5 carbons and one nitrogen so bacteria is a good source of extremely slow release nitrogen even though soil tests do not measure the nitrogen in bacteria it is still there.

The peat moss, bone meal, cottonseed meal is great for organics but unnessary and very expensive. In the short run it will make the nutrients available but in the long run a good soil food web will do the same thing without all those addatives. Learn to look at the garden. If it is increasing well and looks healthy then it is OK. Also by building the soil food web you can get by with a lot less water. I know people absolutely love alfalfa pellets -- they contain a growth hormone and are high in nitrogen but horse manure will do it better and is much cheaper. I no longer use any of that fancy stuff and I have excellent increase and healthy foliage.

BTW did you know the National Daylily Convention is in Houston in 2008. I'm already making my plans to attend. If you can make it we can ride the same tour bus and talk gardening and the soil food web.

Gary Colby
AHS Registration Chair

Except for the Milorganite, I would not add any of the other additives to my soil without a soil test. Texas A&M can do any test you wish. See your local County Agricultural Extension Office.

If you do want the above items and are close to Houston, you can find them at Nitro-Phos in Houston.
Ed

Thanks for all the info and the time it took to write it..you are such dear people!

I much prefer to garden organically, if at all possible. All of my new daylilies in the raised beds are looking great, and those in the new field bed are showing signs of recovery from their August transplant. They are not at all happy though about this heat/humidity thing.

Here's your laugh for the day: Our gardener assured me on Friday that he could quickly erect a shade cover for them. We rushed to our local lumberyard and purchased what he said we needed. (I already had four rolls of burlap.) Yesterday, he assembled it in 100 degree heat, with a little of my help by holding things up while he attached fasteners. We then realized we needed more burlap, but we made do with what we had. This morning, the whole thing looked like it was about to collapse. Here's the pic of our most valiant endeavor!

The "Witches' Brew" is a-brewin' alfalfa tea.

And yes, I am planning on attending the National Convention in Houston, God willing! See ya there!

LOL! Your emergency shade looks better than mine did! Hint: mine involved an old white sheet and some clothes pins.

I also believe in horse s*** :) compost and I've bought many cubic yards. I have a friend, too, whose brother runs a livestock yard and boy! he was thinking I was nuts even though his sister likes me, so.....hey, it's old cow s*** for free by the bobcat load. He was concerned for me over the possibily of sick animals, but they have a mountain of it that's been mucked out and sitting there for years and I got that. That's been years ago, but I may ask for more with all these new beds going in.

I know it's probably all that's needed, but I just seem to have a neurotic affection for greensand from The Garden Supply Company. Maybe it just because it's such a cool color...

Here's another funny story: Back when I lived in Galveston, I had put in a little vegetable garden and wanted some cow manure to mix with the soil. My parents had a summer home "down the island" at the Crash Basin, and the road that led to it crossed through a cattle pasture. Well, the light bulb went off. I went out there with my shovel and a galvanized tub. I got out of my car and started running around the cow pasture shoveling up cow patties. Along comes a man in a pickup truck and asked me what was I doing. When I told him, he laughed and said what I was picking up wasn't any good. So he took me over to the feed lot, and was kind enough to shovel up the really good stuff for my garden. I added it to the soil, and the jalapeno peppers were so hot, we couldn't eat them.

I learn everything by jumping in and doing it, the hard way. I learned not to fertilize jalapeno peppers with high quality cow manure, for sure.

Yeah, I've heard of greensand back in my organic veggie gardening days, but have forgotten what it is good for. ??

White sheets? Now why didn't I think of that? That's a great idea in an emergency.

"Greensand is a naturally occurring iron-potassium silicate that contains as many as 22 trace minerals to enhance soil fertility and loosen clay or compacted soil. It will absorb and hold large amounts of moisture in the soil and help prolong flower bloom."

It's applied at a rate of 2-4 pounds per 100 square feet for flowers. Being the fertilizer wuss that I am, I suppose I sprinkle on 1 pound per 100 square feet on a new bed.

Remember, I already admitted it was neurotic.

Wow, that sounds like what I need for this clay hill I live on.

I have been trying for 18 years now to get things to grow here. I should give up and let the forest reclaim it, but I don't give up easily. I will now have to add greensand to my shopping list.

Oh dear! That part in quotes was right off the bag, but it must be taken with an immense grain of salt. Two pounds of anything won't change clay soil, and clay soil isn't likely to be deficient in trace minerals. Sandy soil might be, with lots of rain washing through it.

Truly, jackarias/Gary gives the correct answer, and the only correct answer IMO. Clay soil's basic problem (as I understand it, anyway) is teeny tiny little particles that fit together so closely. Clay mud is like a plastic and about as friendly to plants, and it dries into bricks. There's run off, but not much drainage through the soil, and no crumbly structure and organic matter to make little air pockets for oxygen or support earthworms and healthy soil life.

I feel your pain with clay soil, truly I do. My backyard was basement excavation dirt and I paid some constuction people to haul a few truckloads away. I've put several truckloads of horse stall muck-out compost in my beds (very nicely delivered, thank the Lord.) It takes a lot of compost to really make a big difference, but the smallest amount is helpful.

You could plan out a big bed a year ahead of time and grow a crop of buckwheat there. It has some very penetrating roots and makes a good green manure to till under, then if you added a bunch of feed lot stuff and tilled again you could leave it mounded up for a raised bed. Just don't let the buckwheat go to seed or you'll have buckwheat everywhere and for a good long time. Guess how I know? :D :D :D

OR you could do a lasagna method this fall and have a wonderful place to plant in the spring.

And have a soil test.

Brooke

Lasagna gets my attention! I'm guessing you layer things up to make a complete raised bed? And don't have to till? I've never read about this one--what do people use? And how much of stuff? It sounds very cool.

Let's hear more about the "lasagna method" PLEASE!

Yes you pile organic material and let it settle over the winter. You start by putting down newspaper or cardboard and build from there. Anything organic, leaves, grass clippings, mulch, straw, etc.

If you go to the soil and compost forum I'm sure there is more info there than you can digest. I've used it twice to make shade beds over winter. I know if you want to do a raised bed, the material needs to be at least twice as high as the finished area.

Brooke

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I love compost. It has the appeal of alchemy for me---black gold from trash. :)
I had a hobby pile one summer with my partner's old molded hay bales that was 2x3 hay bales wide and long, and three hay bales high. I filled in the middle. It was such fun--just a scaveger hunt for things to put in. I worked at the hospital and had a new spare biohazard bucket for the coffee grounds, went to a friend's grandfather and helped clean his rabbit cages(great stories he could tell) , went to another partner's garden just to cut his old corn stalks down cuz I wanted them to stand in the middle for oxygenation path. LOL! I put old tobacco sticks through my chipper shredder until I got a little nauseated from the dust. How people chew tobacco is soooooo beyond me. :D That was the year of the livestock yard, and toward the end the hay bales walls collasped inward to add. I really thought it was grand! Then we had to move. Boo hoo!

I'm so new I didn't know there was soil and compost forum! Lordy, lordy! Other people like me???

But it stands out in my mind the way a compost pile....well, composts. The first half (maybe) of the decomposition stage is the most dramatic as everything disappears and the pile shrinks unless you feed it vigorously. It seems like lasagna raised bed would get lower and lower and need more on top to maintain height. I'm guessing that would eventually essentially bury anything planted there for more than a year or two. Seems like it would have to have several layers of actual soil to stabilize it.

Heh heh. Maybe I could get caught up in another compost hunt for a lasagna bed--that would help me keep my hands off my nice daylily seeds till spring.