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greenman28

Pinus sabiniana (pics)

Earlier this afternoon, I went for a walk in the neighborhood.

I visited one of my favorite Gray Pines, which grows atop the tallest hill in this rural lake community.

We've always called these trees Digger Pines - though I know the name isn't fashionable any longer.

We joke that if the cones happen to hit you on the head, someone will have to dig you a grave.

The cones are large, sappy, and have nasty hooks on the tip of each scale.

Cresting the hill - reminds me of a wild armed octopus:

{{gwi:56181}}


From the top of the hill:




Lower trunk, great branching:




Overlooking the Lake and setting sun at 4:14 pm:

{{gwi:56182}}


Bonus shot of a much taller Gray Pine in proximity:






Josh

Comments (56)

  • pineresin
    13 years ago

    "but I've yet to meet an offended indigenous person"

    Sad thing is, they're almost all dead

    Resin

  • clement_2006
    13 years ago

    Pinus sabiniana is a very difficult plant here, my first plant (seedling) lived 15/20 years,I planted a new plant (graft), dead after 2 years,I planted again some youngs plants from seedling or grafting they are always dead.
    Someone know a source in Europe ?
    Cl�ment

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  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    "Sad thing is, they're almost all dead"
    - Same with the offenders ;)
    ...which is a good thing, I suppose.

    Dax, it's a sweet sunset spot for sure!

    Clement, how are you growing these seedlings?
    They need good drainage - and slopes or hillsides help.
    Wet winters, hot dry summers around here.
    Is it illegal to send seed to Europe?


    Josh

  • shastensis
    13 years ago

    Greenman - what's your point? That it doesn't matter and it's cool to be callous? I'm not "calling you out", so no need to be defensive about it. Just seems like an important thing to point out - the history behind the usage of the term and how it relates to the history of the plant that you just spent an afternoon photographing and posting up here for all of us to see. Why act like you're too cool to care?

    I don't get it. What gives?

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Take a deep breath there, Shastensis.

    Why are you on the offensive? I was agreeing with you - i.e. That's what I've heard, too.
    I've never met an indigenous person that does care about the name - and, moreover, those who hurled
    the epithet are dead. Honestly, though, I care less now that you've taken a piss on my Thread.

    Political correctness may be haute couture, but it ain't any cooler than being callous.

    So what gives?


    Josh

  • coniferophytus
    13 years ago

    Curious now - what did the Indians die of? Alcoholism?

  • shastensis
    13 years ago

    Relax, young lad. I took no piss on thy thread, and I'm not being P.C. and proper by bringing this up. Were you to ever meet me in person, I'd believe you would agree - my taste for good bourbon, long hikes into the cuts, curse words, and the occasional drunken brawl are some of my high points.

    Such is the problem with petty internet feud - you can't read tone, posts are anonymous, there's no owning up to one's words, and when quarrels erupt on the public forum of a message board, in front of many eyes, one feels the urge to posture for the sake of their own ego and appearance.

    I bring up the "digger" issue because it's an interesting part of the history surrounding this tree, as well as how it corresponds to the settlement of California and the idiocy of the Miners and Loggers who thought their own culture much more advanced than that of the "lowly diggers" (who they annihilated) - not because I'm worried about offending Indians. I don't know any Indians, though I'm sure I could go meet one or two on the handful of reservations in this state, convince myself they're my friend, and thus declare myself worthy of argument.

    I believe when Resin stated that they're "all dead" - he was mostly talking about genocide, not about old age, which I assume you of course realized.

    So settle down, I'm not starting anything with you, and I have no intent of beefing with somebody I don't know (and might even run into one day, in person!). I apologize - sincerely - if you thought I was, and for any offense I may have caused you.

    Coming, with no offense intended, from someone who's traversed over many a nook and cranny in this state, and from someone who's spent some time in the foothils - P.C. or Un-P.C. - "Digger" is still just a stupid name.

    Consider your thread un-"pissed"-on.

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Thank you very much for that. I greatly appreciate it.
    And let me apologize for implying/accusing you of being P.C. I can see now that isn't your aim.
    I, too, think we'd agree on many things - and it would be cool to meet on a trail some day.
    Preferably a trail higher up in the Sierra Nevadas.

    As for "lad"...well, I can't argue with that.
    Next month I'll turn a very young 32 years of age ;)


    Josh

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Coniferophytus,
    they certainly didn't die of diabetes back then....
    although it's a fair problem facing many tribes today.

    They didn't so much "die out" - rather, they were displaced by the settlers, miners,
    and loggers, as Shastensis alluded - and ultimately, they didn't reproduce themselves or their
    traditions on their ancestral lands. That's not to downplay the impact of the settlers, of course.
    In particular, the concept of fences and land-rights pretty much made it impossible for the Indian
    way of life to continue.

    A few years ago, I read the story of Ishi, the last Yana, which is a great and sad read....
    and yet one I would also recommend. Weaving the Dream, about Mabel McKay,
    is another short text that I enjoyed....If you're interested in this sort of literature.

    In this area, we're lucky to have Maidu and Miwok still with us.


    Josh

  • clement_2006
    13 years ago

    Josh,

    "Is it illegal to send seed to Europe? "
    No, the plants only.

    Clement

  • greenlarry
    13 years ago

    What a fabulous fabulous tree! What is the bump visible in the second and third pics- limb damage or disease? And can we see one of those great soundi.g cones?

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Hey, Larry!
    That bump is a limb that was sawn off...although I think they should have removed more of the stump,
    since they were intent on chopping it anyway.

    I'll get a cone-pic asap... ;)


    Josh

  • greenlarry
    13 years ago

    Josh, i noticed also the tree appears not to have a single leader and is kind of candelabra like. Is that normal for this species or just part of this tree's history?

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Usually they don't branch this low, but it's not too uncommon.
    They branch whenever the leader is damaged...but that's usually higher up the trunk,
    like the tree in the last pic above. When I look across the landscape, Gray Pine and Ponderosa
    are generally the tallest of the trees.

    Josh

  • greenlarry
    13 years ago

    You say it reminds you of an octopus, i see the whomping willow from Harry Potter ;)

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    ...if this Pine came to life, it'd do some whomping for sure! ;)

    Whenever I see one of the large willows around here, I think of Old Man Willow
    along the banks of the Withywindle in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

    "Eat earth! Dig deep! Drink water! Go to sleep! Bombadil is talking!"


    Josh

  • greenlarry
    13 years ago

    Ents, yes! I need to watch my LOTR box set again!

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Alright, I'm back with two somewhat blurry pics...but I hope they'll suffice ;)

    Although it's been raining for two days, I slipped out for a walk between downpours this afternoon.
    First, a comparison view of the Lake...seen through a light layer of drizzle. I love the Gray Pines
    on the downslope, lifting their heads above the other trees.

    {{gwi:56190}}


    Second, a blurry cone pic - it was growing dark, and the camera was dying.
    You can see how sappy the cones are, but you can't quite see how sharp the scales are.
    This water-logged baby was heavy, too...not the largest, but quite symmetrical.

  • greenlarry
    13 years ago

    Hmm your pics are no longer showing! Getting a photobucket Bandwidth Exceeded notification logo instead.

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Yep, I exceeded my monthly limit sometime last night.
    I always play it close to the wire. Tomorrow my bandwidth will reset, and I hope you'll check back.


    Josh

  • hangtown
    13 years ago

    Interesting topic as like Josh, my wife and I have lived in what Sunset magazine's Western Garden book has always labeled the 'Digger Pine Belt'. I see Sunset has now changed this to 'California's Gray Pine Belt'(Zone 7)so they are now aware of the issue. We have lived here for about 30 years and were never aware of any controversy until a few years ago when I asked a local nurseryman why there were no witches brooms available. He corrected me on the name and said he had tried to propagate some but was not successful. Brooms appear to be plentiful in this pine as my neighbor has a nice one and I see them quite often in my area. Maybe I need to learn how to graft? I will try and post some gray pine broom pictures when I learn to post pictures.

    Gene

  • greenlarry
    13 years ago

    Wow fabulous cone Josh!

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Larry, you must be able to see the pic, then?!
    It's still unavailable in this time-zone....By midnight, it should be back up for the rest of the viewers.
    Those cones litter the drainage ditches, and they're no fun to run over in the car. I grabbed that one
    out of the ditch as I was passing...and the camera had just enough juice to give me one pic.

    Gene, welcome!
    So are you over there near Placerville (old name Hangtown)?
    I see your zone listed as 7/8, which is exactly where my property draws the line, too.
    I know that there are many who would love to see a Gray Pine broom. If you can graft these,
    you'd have a much sought-after specimen.


    Josh

  • hangtown
    13 years ago

    Thanks Josh and yes I'm about 3 miles west of Placerville at about 1600 feet elevation. I must confess I just used your zone when setting up but it looks about right using Garden Web's zones. I am real familiar with your area as you are just north of us. I will be taking pictures of several brooms within a few miles of me when the weather clears and will post. My wife and I go into the Sierras frequently and will post pictures of interesting conifers we encounter. Heck, I might even post of my conifers on our property. Nothing fancy but it's a fun hobby.

    Gene

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Hey, Gene, I happen to live at 1600 feet elevation, as well, so our zones must be very close.
    I get up into the Sierras as often as I can. It's great to have another foothill resident aboard.

    Josh

  • shastensis
    13 years ago

    hey Greenman,
    There's a nice Mcnab Cypress stand near you, up in Grass Valley. Some very large trees reportedly. It'd be cool if you could get a chance to find it and post some photos. I wish I had better info as to location, but I do not. I'll find out and let you know if you're interested.

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    That sounds like a fun challenge! I'd be happy to oblige!
    I'll do some looking...see if I can find anything. I'm definitely interested...
    and, as of tomorrow, my bandwidth will be restored ;)


    Josh

  • hangtown
    13 years ago

    Hey guys use http://www.calflora.org to locate plants and trees in California. The said Mcnab stand is north of Grass Valley in the Smartsville Quad. Coordinates are also given provided you have GPS.

    Gene

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    That's handy!
    I also read of a stand just to the south of Sierra Nevada Memorial Hospital....
    I once dated a girl whose mother worked there, in fact.

    Josh

  • greenlarry
    13 years ago

    Yea Josh the pics showed up at the time I posted, not sure if the timestamp is set correctly for my timezone or not.

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Hey, guys, I went out hunting for the MacNab Cypress today, but I'm not sure if I found it or not.
    While looking, I happened to spot my first Gray Pine witch's broom, which was a bonus!
    I noticed many, many Ponderosa brooms, as well.

    Shastensis, e-mail me so I can send you a pic for ID. If it's correct, I'll post 'em up.


    Josh

  • pinetree30
    13 years ago

    Hangtown, for more information & perspective on "digger pine" and other common names for this species, if you have access to a copy of Conifers of California see p.70. You can find it in the EDC library main branch.

  • hangtown
    13 years ago

    Hi Ronald. I don't need to go to the library as I have an autographed copy of your book! It's a great book and I highly recommend it to everyone. Hope to meet you someday as I know you live nearby. Would be great to tag along with you when you are out in the forrest so you can identify all the conifers I see!

    Gene

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Conifers of California, eh? ;)
    Sounds like something I shall add to the birthday list...

    Josh

  • pinetree30
    13 years ago

    OK Gene, let's do that when the weather turns springlike.There's a very big McNab Cypress well worth visiting near Mt. Aukum that we might check out. I am at pinetree30@comcast.net.
    Ron

  • hangtown
    13 years ago

    Like Josh I was out dodging raindrops yesterday and took this photo of a Pinus sabiniana broom. Tree is young and sparse which is typical. Broom up about 15 feet.

    Gene

  • hangtown
    13 years ago

    In my haste to post my first photo on these forums I not only left out the photo but posted to the wrong message posting.I got the photo in now but wonder is there any way to transfer them into the 'Post Your Brooms(2)' message ? Or do I just do a duplicate posting? Thanks

    Gene

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Ah, man, that's a dense broom! Way thicker than the one I spotted! Thanks for posting.
    It was great weather out yesterday....rainy, but not too rainy.

    I have a few other Gray Pine pics in the works...hopefully I'll get 'em up tomorrow.

    Josh

  • sluice
    13 years ago

    Nice!

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Hey, Gene, a duplicate posting would be fine.
    I know there are quite a few folks who'd love to see this rare broom.
    GardenWeb doesn't allow editing....

    Josh

  • hangtown
    13 years ago

    Thanks all. I've got a much better broom a couple hundred yards from my place. Much bigger but a little higher. Whenever the rain stops I'll get pictures. Thanks for the help Josh.

    Gene

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    My pleasure, Gene.

    Here's another Gray Pine, located on the golfcourse. Fantastic form against the sky.
    Sorry for the dark photos...a bit drizzly again today.




    Josh

  • gardener365
    13 years ago

    Wow, that's a fantastic tree.

    I wonder why that nurseryman had trouble with the grafts of this species. I assume it would graft wonderfully to Pinus ponderosa...

    If you guys can send a buddy of mine the broom material, I'm sure he'd graft em. He's in Silverton, OR.

    Dax

  • gardener365
    13 years ago

    This is a double-post...

    Heya Josh & Gene... I spoke with my friend in Silverton, OR and he said he would definitely graft the sabiniana brooms and he asked:

    If possible, photograph the broom and attach a tentative name.

    I'll just add, only collect the dense brooms. Also, if they're growing over 3" a year, there not worth grafting. I'm going to double post to the (brooms 2) thread.

    Send me an email guys to:
    conifercollector@hotmail.com

    Thanks! He'll be sure to get you plants, of course.

    Dax
    (other species/etc- same as well)

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Thank you, Dax!
    I'll be in touch. I still have some high elevation P. jeffreyi seeds to send you, as well.

    Here's another Gray Pine....good-size specimens are literally everywhere.

    Josh

  • gardener365
    13 years ago

    Those are massive trees.

    Thanks!

    Dax

  • clement_2006
    8 years ago

    I'm curious to know if the broom are grafted by someone ?

    Clement

  • Lucas Dexter
    4 years ago

    I had Conifer Kingdom successfully graft a Pinus sabiniana Broom last year. It’s called ‘Gandalf’ and will hit the market in very limited numbers next year:

  • plantkiller_il_5
    4 years ago

    NICE , THIS IS WORTH A SEPERATE POST

    ron