Be nice to get the information updated to 20th century! (metres, celsius, etc ;-)

Resin

Dawn redwood? Giant redwood? Pretty bogus.

The site is for people in the NYC/Philly area so converting to meters would be a bit much.* Likewise, not sure what Pinetree30 is complaining about, the idea is to help gardeners who may or may not know Latin species names. If you are already an expert, I'm not sure how I can help you. That said, I don't think there are any significant errors.

Have either of you taken a look at the Wikipedia page for Sequoiadendron? I think it needs some work. In fact, the pages on several conifer species have problems there.

(I checked the box for getting replies by e-mail, but it doesn't seem to be working. Does anyone else have the same problem?)

*This might be good time for a unit conversion utility Add-On in Firefox! Should be easy to do.

I spoke too soon. Here is a webpage unit conversion utility for Firefox.

And it seems to work!

(Finally got the replies too.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Firefox Unit Converter

greyneedle, a little curmudgeonry is the price we sometimes have to pay for knowledge.

>>Dawn redwood? Giant redwood? Pretty bogus. Giant Sequoia is stated clearly.

Have viewed that site before. It's enjoyable seeing sickly GS's growing in a climate from which they went extinct 20-40 million years ago.:)

Nice set of pics, Grey. I'd imagine, for any Eastern US resident interested in growing these things, a post such as yours would be of much value. And while I'm sure that Wadet's comment on "sickly" sequoias is true, relatively speaking, some of those don't look too bad at all.

+oM

Commendable effort there greyneedle!
As I do, the site will be appreciated by many others.

Nate

yeah.... geez take it easy on the poster who is sharing this at their own time, trouble, and expense. Im going to rant a little about this....

as far as the measures issue goes, I might concede that metric units of measure for distance, volume, etc. are better because it's an easier, more logical, base ten, system, I don't get why celsius is any better than fahrenheit. Is it becuase its used by more people? Americans refrain from criticizing these pervy british spellings of words like "metres" in lieu of "meters" (hardly a logical or phonetical spelling). Maybe our friends across the pond could reciprocate with tolerance.

John Lennon said 'if I lived in Roman times I would want to live in Rome, these days the United States is the Roman Empire and New York is Rome itself.'

At least one monarchist realized the United States is the center of the modern world. :)

Thanks for the kind words guys! Hopefully I'll get my fancy slide scanner to work correctly so that I can scan all my new pics. I'm way behind right now.

Michael (Resin) has harped here on Imperial measurements and North American common names for years now. Using either in a post can be like pushing a button. Nobody is being singled out.

Hi Panserbjorn,

Celsius is better because it has a more useful and logical zero point; fahrenheit is about as convenient as measuring mountain altitudes from a zero point 32 feet below sea level, that being the deepest water measurable at the time the scale was invented. Or measuring trees from a zero point 32 feet below ground level so the measurement includes all the roots. Also Celsius is used by 95% of the world's population; outside of the USA, fahrenheit is about as well-understood as ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics (and about as well-liked as US policies at Bali!).

Resin

Thanks for posting, the site looks like it was a fair amount of work and I appreciate it. I enjoyed looking at the pictures.

I do wish you had a picture of the Sequoia semprevirens (coast redwood) that is at the Scott Arboretum of Swarthmore, PA. A zn 6b/7a area. There is one in the suburbs of DC in a similar 6b/7a area.

It would practically be a disappointment if he didn't harp on them!
No doubt we are backward in this regard and I'm not against converting just to be obstinate and adhere to our "tradition". Fine,let's convert. I will however miss the way with Fahrenheit measures, each "decade" has a certain feel. You can talking about weather in a certain way that I think is harder than you can in Celcius. Saying it's in the "sixties" here on a given day is somehow more convenient than saying it's in the "upper teens".

Grey: Thanks for creating this site. I've built several large websites and know the time and labor involved. I was especially interested in the germination trials and look forward to watching the site evolve.

I agree with Resin re: the logic of using the metric system. Communication is more accurate and efficient when we speak the same language. Yet, as David says, we are accustomed to saying "It's in the 70's" as a form of shorthand --and we resist change.

I remembered when Congress passed a law to adopt the metric system years ago. What happened? I googled "metric system usa" and learned that this issue has been resolved and unresolved since the 1800s. Congress passes laws that the US will adopt the metric system, nothing happens, regulatory agencies come and go, new laws are passed, ad nauseum.

Why can't we learn to communicate in both? If we were comfortable using both systems, I think the metric system would become standard in the US in a generation or two - not a bad thing.

My two cents.

Here is a link that might be useful: Metrication in the United States

Many plant books give measurements in both.

In the USA, they said we were moving to the Metric system back in the 70s. Tape measures now include centimeters, but people still think in pounds, miles, feet, fahrenheit, gallons... people need to learn to understand what a 22 Celcius day refers to (do you need a jacket or not?), what 50 kilos means (can you pick it up or not?)

What about Metric time...? 60 seconds in a minute, what silliness.

As for the Giant Sequoia original theme, could not these gardeners from very borderline areas collect cones from trees that live, select the seedlings that survive the best, distribute and then collect the cones and distribute and keep selecting from trees that survive well... and a few hundred years done the line breed some hardier trees for the Eastern US? Gotta start somewhere.

No matter where someone lives in the world, there are more than enough temperature/measurement converters available on the web to convert any measurement given in a post, into the measurement that the person can/will understand.

This subject is brought up repeatedly; if someone is smart enough to use the Internet, then they're smart enough to convert C° to F° or F° to C°.
'nuff said.

RE Celsius is better because it has a more useful and logical zero point

By that analysis Kelvin is best, having the most logical zero point, the absence of molecular motion. And zero is the absence of value. Points at which water freezes, evaporates are somewhat arbitrary by comparison.

I'm insisting everyone use Kelvins now. It was a comfortable 290 kelvins today in central Texas. Anyone who fails to conform is an ignorant luddite :)

Just goofing with you michael.......I apoligize.

I only found out a few years ago that -273c/-459f
is the coldest temperature that can be reached.I
always use imperial measurements.

I've driven past the Scott Arb. but have never been able to get inside. (I'm skeptical about a Coast Redwood growing there but that would be nice.)

I'm not sure any of the trees here have viable cones for breeding purposes, though several Hazel Smiths produce a lot of cones. I've seen the original Hazel Smith. It's rather imposing! Will scan those slides one of these days.

I recommend that one read the summary on growing by seeds since it has the latest information. I tried to put little updates on some of the other pages too.

0°F (-18°C) is the point at which your nose freezes. So, it's very natural and not arbitrary at all! However, these forums get hijacked by discussions over units instead of plants, which is tiresome. Now for something really tricky. In Europe they don't have MPG for cars they have Liters (Litres) per Kilometer--LPK!

When I saw the title I thought they had found a new grove or something. ItÂs a nice site, though.

>>and about as well-liked as US policies at Bali!).Bali Indonesia, a bunch of muslim throwbacks who rely only on the self sufficiency of the Qur'an and continue to live in the 7th century... Um yeah.. Who cares what they think of about the US, it's policies or Bush(whom I dislike)? They can all drop dead as far as we're concerned.

I can understand harping on imperial measurements if this site was hosted outside the US but it's not, IIRC. The this and the site of the original poster are located here in the US. So, what's the big deal?

And correct me if I'm wrong but speedlimits on motorways in the UK are still posted in MPH..

Hi Wadet - I was referring to the recent UN conference in Bali (see e.g. link below), not the region (which, by the way, is Hindu, not Muslim).

Here is a link that might be useful: Chicago Sun Times article

Nice job on the Giant Sequoia thread greyneedle. Very informative.

My take on this whole measurement/conversion thing is let it go. In an international forum every participant should accept what ever measurement is presented in the thread. If the measurement has a need to know value go to the conversion table which you should have bookmarked and get satisfied. What silliness to destroy this thread that greyneedle has worked very hard on.

Dave

Agree, I'd like to learn about sequoia's

Greyneedle I'd be skeptical too, except some redwood site on the internet devoted to the topic said it's there - not just hearsay posted to some messageboard somewhere, and no less esteemed horticulturalists than David and Kei Mei Parks of Camellia Forest told that they propagated it a few years ago, but lost their plant in this summer's drought. I think they'd be able to make the correct identification.
I wonder what the history of the known Mid-Atlantic trees are: Williamsburg, VA, Rockville, MD, and Swarthmore, PA. I wonder if they were selected from known cold parts of the range. At least with the William and Mary trees there is an account of them being brought around Cape Horn so there might be more details in the archives of Dr. Baldwin but I've never pursued the matter.

We've had some very warm winters lately, so a coast redwood might cling on for a few years in z8 conditions until a z7 or z6 winter hits. I should get over to Swarthmore, about 2 hours from here. Winter is the best time to look for unusual conifers (evergreens at least). We didn't have an usually warm summer this year, though it was fairly dry. It's been dry every August for several years now except 2003 or 2004 I think. This summer was one of the nicest I can remember.

I guess I should have said "New Sequoia Web Site!". Oops.

I think even w/in the range of the trees there have been freezes down to around 0F. In 1990, Walnut Creek, CA, not far from San Fran was 12F, so it's not impossible to believe that somewhere way up the coast ranges at 2500' it was down around 0F. I saw the W&M trees, which have survived since 1954, after the terrible 1994 winter when it was 0F and they were totally unaffected as far as I could tell. Still Swarthmore is more a 6b vs. Wmbg. which is solidly 7b and has a much longer growing season. So I was surprised and encouraged to hear about the Swarthmore tree.

Usually a plant is at least 5F hardier than it's native range, and sometimes much more so.

I enjoyed your site, greyneedle! I ordered and have potted up a dawn redwood and a coast redwood - I didn't think that the very humid southeast climate would suit giant redwoods, but I may be wrong. I think it's good that people are planting them in various places outside their native range - one day they may become extinct in their native ranges, and the ones in the East are all there are!
I can't imagine posting on, say, a European website and constantly griping and carping on their system of measurements, no matter how inferior I thought it was. If I didn't like it, I'd just stick to websites in my own continent where the measurements didn't aggravate me.
Sherry

I have said this before and I'll say it again. Even though I will never embrace the metric system, I will always appreciate being asked to use it. I need all the practice I can get. It is not just the measurement of another country(s), it is the accepted measurement of the scientific community. Using it is to my benefit as I frequently visit foreign websites and converting constantly is a headache. So when it comes to asking for metric units, bring it on, I need the practice. Just don't call our measurements archaic. For example, the non-metric Pound is still used many places ;-).

tj

Thanks, misssherry! I think they grow coast redwoods on plantations in Alabama, though I can't confirm that. Dawn Redwoods should do well in z8 and possibly z9, though it starts to get too warm in z9. Both are going to need moist soil conditions.

In order for me to recommend a tree species for the Philly/NYC area, I'd have to find some good examples first. For example, I don't generally recommend Douglas Fir because it's just too rare around here. There are native species that could be planted more too, like sugar maple instead of Norway maple.

hey i looked the site and thought it had great info but a few days before i checked it out i had already started germinating some seeds of my own arround dec. 1 will they still pull through i live in souther california so its still reasonably warm around the 60's-70s F i tryed several 100s of seeds some have started to root out from the seed casing i still have about fifty untouch waiting for spring

>I can't imagine posting on, say, a European website and constantly griping and carping on their system of measurements, no matter how inferior I thought it was. If I didn't like it, I'd just stick to websites in my own continent where the measurements didn't aggravate meYep. I have posted the same thing myself. It's just basic good manners to not keep answering people posting in feet and inches with metric figures only.

Or the reverse, which I've seen an awful lot of. I used to post in both, but gave up, because the same consideration was almost never shown in return. Too many people seem to think that the whole world must be forced to use US Imperial measures, and those 95% of the world's population who don't, resent it deeply. Is it any wonder that very few people outside of the USA ever post on these forums?

Resin

Resin

99% of people on this forum use Imperial measurements

Because those who use metric - the vast majority of the world's population - are not made to feel welcome here. So they (mostly) give up and go away.

Not to change the subject, but the sequoia site is excellent work, very informative.

whoa pineresin- take a chill pill buddy...

Thanks for all the recent posts. I guess I should point out again that my site was created largely for a limited audience. If you are trying to grow redwoods in California or outside of the NE US, the advice would not generally apply, though I imagine seed germination issues are roughly the same. What are 'days' and 'weeks' in metric again? I forget.

(I suppose I should translate the site pages into French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Irish, Welsh and German too, just to be fair.)

Not to quibble, but I don't think that 95% of the world figure is accurate. In China(20% of the world's population) most everyone uses Chinese measurements like lÇ, chÇ, mÇ, jÄ«n, etc. as do many SE Asian countries(especially ones with significant historical interaction with the Chinese).

I'd bet that probably 1/2 of English literate people on the internet(ie. potential posters on gardenweb) use Imperial measurements still.

I try to post both measurements to save people from having to convert them themselves, but I also like number crunching so it is also for a bit of personal want as well. I do forget to do this from time to time though.

Anyway, back to the original posting, I too enjoyed the new website and thought it was very convenient to have all of the information brought together in one website. I think the general public(non-plant people) will find it easy to navigate and perhaps start a passion for plants within them(hopefully).

I'd like to be unbiased, but I'm Canadian so I really am not.
But, it seems to make more sense that when we are talking about biological things (conifers) whose existence depends on water and how water exists at different temperatures, we should use a system that is based on water. i.e. metric.

It just makes sense to me.

Let's please remain respectful of others and their opinions, we are all very valuable to this forum.

Nate

I felt Resin's heart not any chill pill. He's too nice and wasn't mad. I 've just known him for two long. Sort of like a never ending discussion that began in 2001. You get to know a person by their writing.

I think the answer could be to reciprocate every now and then to keep yourownself on your toes. Back to the discussion...

I haven't read your charts and germination information (too long for me) but you have some photos - I'd personally cut them down if they were on my property, but it's your passion and I understand. Talk gently, walk slowly, I'm trying to do (I saw the good plants also).

Dax

Okay, okay!! I'm 59 years old and haven't a clue about the metric system, but I'll find a conversion chart and start using it. I guess an old dog CAN learn new tricks.
I hope this doesn't mean I'm going to have to learn to love soccer, uh, football! :)
Sherry

Just a few comments.

Sequoia's are awesome, that is why we want to grow them in the hot, humid, and cold-winter East.

The UN can kiss me where the sun don't shine.

The metric system is useful, I see no reason people can't learn both, actually, but I also see nothing wrong with feet, inches, pounds (as a unit of weight) and Fahrenheit. Fahrenheit fits well with about the highest and lowest annual temperature here where I live and that works for me. 0F is about the coldest and 100F is about the hottest we get, more or less.