dsteg would argue with you whaas ... that KC summer night heat and humidity are much different.. and that is why you and I can do some conifers.. he cant .... which is also part of why they are quizzing the hort.. who seems to have lost interest ... or has a real life.. outside GW ... regardless... i consider viburnum to be a run it over with the truck plant.. and dont know what difference latitude would make ... i have the variegated one.. which is brilliant bright yellow and green splashed in full sun.. and the same plant in shade.. is grey and green splashed ... the ONLY downside on this plant.. is the scent of the flowers is called 'dirty diaper' ... lol ... i also have mohawk in full sun ... and its fragrance is sublime ... though i dont know its shade vigor ... [i also wonder if there is this one.. and another named mohican.. or are we using two different names for the same fragrant plant???] p-man.. frankly.. no shrub EVER STOPS GROWING ... e.g. i have seen lilac as big as a hundred year old house ... its all about ANNUAL GROWTH RATE ... and how fast it gets bigger than you want.... and rejuvenation pruning ... if you think you can plant and forget any shrub forever .. you must have a branch of de nile running thru your KC .... you are right to be looking for dwarf version of the monsters.. but dont get too hung up between one that claims to only grow 5 feet rather than 8.. or something like that ... choose the best plant.. not a size 'claim' to fit a spot ... ken ps: my first house was next to a funeral home.. and there were 30 year old viburnum blocking the view.. they were just below the lower power lines [probably the phone and cable].. 20 feet tall?? ... and 40 to 50 feet wide.. and that is what 30 years will get you with a shrub.. some of the branches were 4 to 6 inch diameter ... since they were not on my property.. they were beautiful... lol .. Here is a link that might be useful: probably bigger than you might want.. but really cool ...

>I'd prefer Felicia to Cornelia since Felicia, I've heard, has stronger scent? or is that not true? I have a couple Felicias that are babies now. (like I said in my previous... I'm not sure if they're doing well or not. They may just be young?) Hi Aimee, Rogue Valley lists them both with three "f's" out of a possible four for degree of fragrance. Francesca is for sure a beautiful rose, so good luck with it! If you ever do consider Cornelia too, well, I've read a few comments that its fragrance wafts on the breeze. >Both Kathleen and Mutabilis (which I guess are similar to Bermuda's Kathleen) are listed as shade tolerant... Neither one makes it to the ARE shade tolerant list, though they do sell both. (The person running that nursery is extraordinarily knowledgeable so I'd take his advice over the opinions of others.) >I'm open to Darlow's Enigma, too. I want something that does WELL there... otherwise I might want to try a shrub or something more tolerant? I've seen so many gorgeous pictures of this very fragrant rose that at one time I wanted it too. But it was a turnoff to discover that it is supposed to be unusually thorny. >I really like camellias too. Mary, that was one of my other ideas. So if the roses won't do well, I'd rather go with something that will do better. Your roses are probably going to do fine, with the right selections, I'd guess. On the other hand, with more thought as to the whole picture, you might want a little greater diversity in the front yard and some things with a bit of a heavier shinier leaf look to them. Two books to help you form your own landscaping ideas: House and Garden Book of Country Gardens," by Charles Quest-Ritson, and Landscape with Roses" by Jeff Cox. Consider Japanese maples if you end up looking for more trees. I never tire of looking at ours (three kinds here). >I have a small camellia roughly in that spot now, it's getting a little bit of burning on the leaves, but overall seems happy, so I'm guessing as it gains maturity, it will be able to tolerate sun better. I don't think you ought to generalize the experience for a single camellia (japonica?) to all the many others you might consider for the same spot. Some varieties aren't too picky about how much sun and sun protection they have, and some are very picky. The variety in that spot is just probably one of the pickier ones and is wishing it were in a slightly shadier spot or were getting better watering. >Mary, how do you mean "for the front walk"? sorry, I can't figure out which part you mean exactly., do you mean along the sidewalk coming from the front door, on both sides...? (before it does a right angle?) Edging each side with shishigashiras would work well for the entire distance, I'd guess. >I'm just having trouble with the part that's right up next to the front of the porch (the foundation) There are an unending number of potential choices and combinations, all of which would make a nice inviting entrance for your house. It all depends on what you personally like best. If it were my house, I'd opt for some Bonanza camellias spanning the front next to the porch, with perhaps a rose climbing the two pillars where you have two MAC's planted now. >I'm seriously considering putting a tea (probably Archduke Charles) in the front middle area. I think that one is a china, but it should still do quite well in your climate. Gorgeous! If you're hoping for the evergreen quality that many of the tea roses have you'd just have to ask locally about that. >I also was thinking about pillaring a rose, like you said. but I'm on the fence. It would be great if one of the roses already on my short list was one that could be pillared. In seeing some more pictures now, I'd suggest the pillar for a larger planting area than what you have right in the front. The height of your climbers next to the porch might be enough for that area; too many focal points amounts to not having any. A pillar might make a really nice focal point in your side yard though. I'm not sure which roses are on your short list-- I might not have seen that list anywhere. Anyway, it wouldn't hurt to post them all again in a very organized fashion. Ideally, include a division as to front yard/side yard/back yard plant intentions, assuming you've taken the ideas that far. It also would be very helpful to actually make it into a much longer list, listing first the names of the roses you've already purchased/planted in those yard areas, along with a dotted line to separate the ones not yet bought but that you're considering for future purchase in those same particular yard areas--with all three yard areas totally separated by lots of space and double dotted lines. You are doing enough stuff all at once there that it is easily confusing to try to recall everything you might have mentioned somewhere sometime in different posts now, and this is the very most basic information that anyone wanting to offer suggestions needs to have. There's also a benefit to forcing yourself to organize your own information: it's not just a benefit to your readers, but you yourself can do a better thinking job with the information, once you've organized it enough to have it ready at your fingertips. Best wishes, Mary Here is a link that might be useful: A shade-tolerant rose resource

boy my answer above sucked.. lol ... winter damage is not just about sun ... it is also about winter winds ... and temp fluctuations ... in mid winter.. a plant .. in your clime should be dormant.. get it dormant.. and keep it dormant ... the problem with evergreen type plants ... is that you get these sunny comparatively warm days.. and the leaves can that ... and then they refreeze at night ... plus the drying effects of winter winds ... and you have a recipe for freeze dried evergreen leaves ... in a sense ... with the multiple variables ... the choice of stock might not matter ... your best shot.. would be to try to find stock that is 2 or 3 zones colder than your zone .... which i now see mary above mentions .... when i started with conifers.. in the ground... damage tended to appear in mid to late spring.. when the temps started warming.. and that is when the evergreen tissue started browning ... i found it very hard to figure out.. when the actual damage occurred ... and to assign a reason ... especially since in my MI.. i did a lot of fall planting ... one thing for sure.. as the plants aged .. over the years ... the more established the plant became.. the easier they could overcome the effects of winter ... and one very important thing in all that.. was that the plants went into winter.. full of water ... in other words.. in prime shape... especially if it was a drought year ... and that is part of what i was getting at.. in my first reply ... the plants need proper watering.. with proper drainage.. late into fall ... but the media can not be holding so much water .. that you freeze the roots into an ice cube ... and yes.. DAS are carp plants ... over marketed and ridiculously cheap due to such .... perhaps you should stay with them.. keeping in mind.. that they are semi disposable ... just replace them every few years ... due to your location issues ... i suspect some winters you will win.. and others you will lose.. and that is simply the odds you are going to have to accept... in your situation .... ken

It's not a problem. Our house completely shades most of my roses in back by sometime in November, and the neighbor's house shades everything else. But photosynthesis stops here around Nov 7, anyway, since the sun's angle and the short hours of daylight prohibit that in our northern latitude. In other words, the sun loses its mojo after Nov 7. Diane