firefightergardner...I couldn't copy the link for this... so here it is in the long form. You might not have a care...but for what it's worth.

Dont ever lay landscape cloth or weed barrier on the ground before planting.

Insidious, how these product lines have grown. What began years ago as landscape clothÂdesigned for vertical use behind boulder walls, to keep soil from eroding through the wallÂhas evolved into any number of "weed barrier" products that homeowners are encouraged to lay flat on the ground before planting trees, shrubs, even perennials.

Homeowners think itÂs a great idea: Lay down a weed barrier fabric, and they wonÂt have any weeds. Except studies have shown that though porous, weed barrier fabrics do not allow water to penetrate the soil as readily as soil without fabric. In heavy rain, a lot of water builds up and runs off, one reason why gardeners who use weed barriers see edges of it glistening in the sunlight so often. More important, weed barrier fabrics decrease the amount of oxygen that is drawn into the soil. All plant roots require oxygen, at various preferred levels (yes, even water plant roots).

ItÂs a shortcut that harms your soil, and your plants. The worst barrier in the world, of course, is black plastic poli, because it allows NO oxygen or moisture into the soil, except at the base of the plant, where a hole was cut to accommodate planting. The soil dies out all around the plant, meaning no microbe activity (those little microscopic critters need soil that contains air and water and organic material), and the plants donÂt bloom as well as they could, donÂt grow as fast, and decline prematurely.

But getting back to porous weed barriers  they serve no purpose, except to make you rue the day you put it down on the day you want to move a shrub, plant a new shrub, or plant perennial groundcovers around the shrubs.

The key to growing healthy plants is to duplicate nature. In nature, a tree falls down and over decades it gets sucked back down into the earth, all those nutrients being returned to the ground. In the suburbs, a tree goes down in our yards during a storm, and we call a tree service to remove it. In the woods, trees lose their leaves in the fall so that those leaves can replenish the soil. Meanwhile, we carefully rake every last leaf from our lawns and our gardens in the fall because they smother and kill our lawns over winter, plus we donÂt like the look. Then each spring we fertilize the soil like mad.

If youÂd like to garden in a way that makes sense, go back to nature. Mulch all your plants with organic matter, placed directly on the soilÂa four- to five-inch layer of shredded hardwood is good around trees and shrubs, and a two- to three-inch layer of shredded leaves, dried grass clippings, cocoa bean mulch or the like is good around perennials and annuals. That will block the sunlight most annual weed seeds need to germinate just as effectively as plastic weed barriers. Perennial weeds, like thistles, theyÂre going to burst up through plastic weed barriers as it weakens in three years, then spread just as quickly as they will in the proper mulch, so youÂre not losing anything. Thistles and other tough perennial weeds have to be dug up or sprayed regardless of what you do. And itÂs a helluva lot easier to dig up the entire root system of tough perennial weeds popping through organic mulch than it is when a weed barrier fabric is involved.

You WANT these organic mulches to slowly disappear, to break down and replenish the soil around the plants. Mulches around perennials and annuals SHOULD last only one season. You go out and redo the mulch in your flower beds each year, itÂs called gardening.

A five-inch layer of shredded hardwood bark around trees and shrubs should last three seasons, depends on the quality, cypress mulch lasts longest but is more expensive. Whichever you use, you just add more as it decays and you see patches of bare soil.

And donÂt do this: IÂve seen landscapers lay down weed barrier, cut holes, plant shrubs and perennials, and then top it off with shredded hardwood mulch. Now, the plastic weed barrier stops the decaying mulch from entering the soil! The shredded hardwood ALONE will block the weeds; in this case, the plastic weed barrier is both superfluous and harmful.

You check your mulched beds every few days and pull out the few weeds that make it, pull seven weeds a day in spring and early summer, keep up with your mulching, and after a few seasons you will have very little weed activity. YouÂre pulling the weeds before they can go to seed, so eventually, no more seeds. Most of the easy-to-pull weeds you spot in summer and fall are probably wind-blown seeds that landed on top of the mulch anyway, and would germinate and grow with or without weed barrier fabric.

Sorry for the length of this, one lousy photo and all. I guess I could have written one sentence to explain this DonÂt DO That, instead of the 827 words above: DonÂt use weed barrier fabric, because if you start gardening, within five years it will bite you in the ass, and within six years youÂll just wind up ripping it all out.

Concerning the above mentioned cultivars 'Skylands', Picea Mariana 'Auerovariagata', 'Silberlocke(too wide?)' or one of the Picea Omorika varieties in my opinion all will be more then 4 ft. wide in 20 years. You can restrict growth to some extent by planting in partial shade but that causes another host of issues we won't go into.

Chamaecyparis nootkatensis (Alaska Cedar) 'Green Arrow' 'Strict Weeping' 'Van Den Akker' would be a consideration. You might squeeze Picea omorika 'Pendula Bruns' in there if the skirt doesn't get to big. Picea abies 'Compressa' Picea Pungens 'Blue Totem' and 'Pendula' (staked) are a few more but staying in that 4 foot circumference will be tough. Do your home work by restricting you search to pendulous/columnar cultivars. There are a host of them out there I didn't mention.

Nice job on the landscape design. Thanks for posting.

Merry Christmas,

Dave

Yeah that fabric stuff seems like a bad idea. I planted some trees in somebody's yard once that had been using that stuff and it was a pain in the ass to rip up, and the soil beneath it was COMPLETELY parched - no water, no till-ability, no micro-organism activity, nothing. Bad news. I still deal with weeds the old-fashioned way - I get down and rip the bastards up, throw em in the compost.

Heavy mulch seems like it should help out a lot.

FFG, I am in full agreement with what Dave has provided showing the pitfalls of "landscape fabric", though I do think, both from your text, and from the pics, that you intend this material to be placed under the walkway area-not the planting areas. There appears to be some overlap and even this little bit will be objectionable in the long run. A sharp carpet knife will enable you to trim this away, but you maybe already intended to do this.

Nice project, and I agree with you that fewer little squiggles and instead, broader, sweeping curves in the walkway will be more appealing.

+oM

I always try to put landscape fabric under rock; this keeps it from disappearing by pressing into the soil.
Another trick is to use large enough rock material that won't get get moved too much when cleaning it with a blower...hard to do in a walkway though.

When in doubt with design, remember this lyric from the song 'Garden Party' (waaay before your time)
"you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"
Advice is good, but make sure it is what you like in the end.

Barbara

I understood the fabric is intended to stop weeds from growing through the gravel paths .It's a method I use myself and it's certainly efficient and no worse than concrete or tarmac,so often used in public parks or even in private gardens.As for using it with plants;I cut 2X2 ft bits into wich I cut a slit,and put that around newly planted trees or shrubs,covered by a few rocks for estetic reasons and to stop it from blowing away in the wind.This goes a long way to conserve moisture and suppressing weeds.I remove it after a couple of growing seasons. T.

if god had meant for you to use man made fabric in the garden.. then the plants would be man made ...

IT IS THOROUGHLY.. AND COMPLETELY USELESS ...

the minute it is done.. the wind brings in air borne seed and lays it on top.. ergo .. immediately useless .. ever wonder why dandylion seeds have wings.. to float on the air for miles ... santa clauses ... anything a bird ingests ... and digests ...

man i wish i sold snake oil... or bridges .. or swampland ...

now.. as to your paths.. i design mine with my riding lawnmower ... THEY MUST BE FUNCTIONAL ....forget pretty paths.. INSURE THEY ARE FUNCTIONAL ... that squiggle looks like a broken ankle one day with an overloaded wheelbarrow with 200 pounds of something in it .. forget it ... or make it wider ... for safetys sake ... a perfect T might be better ... get an adult drink, the chair.. and sit on that deck.. and consider ever angle and option .... ... and think long and hard about what you want to develop ... BEFORE YOU BUILD IT ... avoid builders regret ....

my paths are actually a function of driving to and from the barn to get and store the tractor... and to and from the pyre.. where i store dead plants.. and have a mulch pile ... they may look very decorative... but the are totally and completely functional ...

depending on sun and path rock color.. you might fry anything in the center ....

good luck

ken

Although I would make them more gentle (less squiggly) and I'm not sure about the 'intersection' with the 'traffic island' how nice that you have used related curves, with one curving out across from where the other curves in, instead of making the common mistake of designing curves that bend toward or away from one another where they meet. Makes your path flow much better.

I kind of new I was going to get some responses about the weed fabric. Early on when reading on these forums, I found out how strong people's opinions on it were.

Evilist things in the world lists went something like Hitler, Taxes, Landscaping Fabric, Bin Laden, etc.

I've used landscaping fabric on about 3/4's of my projects. I've always looked for quality fabric, material that boasts both good water breathability and weed prevention. I had no thought about the oxygen factor, it's hard for many new gardeners to remember that plants need air too. My experience thus far has been that it greatly reduces weeds, but doesn't stop them altogether, because of course as mentioned, some weeds will just happily root themselves amongst the bark and organic materials laid on top of the weed fabric.

I've had success growing conifers and other plants with very strict weed block laid around them. It's possible down the road their roots will cry out for air and or water, but at least right now they are robust and healthy.

Right now for my backyard project, mostly I am using the weed block for the pathways and the rocks near the pathway. I figure between the tamped down crush rock, pebbles on top and double weedblock below it, I shouldn't have weed problems on the path. There is an overlap and indeed, I had a few older projects that turned into this large project that used weedblock, so I may deal with that at a later time.

The experts and experienced gardeners on these forums are very influential in my projects and I greatly appreciate your advice and knowledge base.

"if god had meant for you to use man made fabric in the garden.. then the plants would be man made" ...

Ah...that Ken...you gotta love him...enough said.

Dave

Of course, if god had meant miniature conifers to survive, he wouldn't have required them to have light either. :p

As I have said before:It's plastic art.Just like you may want to move plants for whatever reason,you may want to improve on your design.This method allows for easy change,especially if the edging is not cemented.Take it easy,firefighter,in a garden things grow...the plants,the design and the people who invent it. T.

1. Landscape Fabric- Love your evilist list LOL. It will only work as a weed barrier for a couple of years and then the weeds growing through it will be harder to remove. Couple that will permeability of oxygen and water woes and, well, you get it.

2. Design- I agree with less squiggly lines. Even though you won't be mowing here, the rule of thumb is if you make it easy to mow along, it will be easy on the eyes (less busy looking). As for the center bed, one's man's stoplight is another man's focal point so if you go with it I'd use a Picea omorika 'Pendula Bruns'

3. "...if god had meant for you to use man made fabric in the garden.. then the plants would be man made..."
In many respects, aren't most cultivars basically man made? ;-)

tj

If water and air can't get trough the weed block then how do the weeds grow through it?

There is a weed for any given soil condition. The soil condition created may not be conducive for good growth of your selected plant ;-)

tj

You pureist are full of it.I read the article you linked to and it said that if you pull the weeds before they seed you won't have as many weeds.I guess the y forgot about the wind?

We got people here using roundup and other weed killers and your worried about about weed block.I have used it for years ive got noweeds.Did you notice a lot of pictures of conifer garden in Europe? the use gravel for muclh .What do you think is under that gravel? since there is not a weed in sight.Plus all this talk about organic material,how dose organic material go through gravel?

The main problem I'm aware of with landscape fabric is it being used on/near the surface and being defeated by weeds after an organic substrate develops on top of the fabric. This rooting base for weeds can consist of organic mulch that has decomposed over time and become suitable for weed growth, soil spilled onto the mulch, or even soil spilled onto ground cloth in a container nursery. In the latter case weeds left to grow in clumps of spilled potting medium on top of the ground cloth will then be liable to root into the soil beneath the fabric.

All landscape fabric does as a weed control is exclude light. It can also be used to separate gravel buried around drainage pipes from surrounding soil.

Since there are pros and cons to landscape usage let it be and just go with what you think is best for your scape.

When I started collecting 12 years ago I used fabric in my first bed toped off with 2 inches of pond gravel. It now has from 1/2 -1 inch of decomposing material and dirt on top of it. Needless to say it is totally ineffective as there now is enough anchor material on top of the fabric to grow weeds through the rock. I have gradually removed about 1/2 of it over the years. I have cussed this stuff from day one. I personally feel the plants do better by having a natural environment for them to grow in.

All my other beds are bare ground with 1/4 in pea gravel toped off with 3/4 to 1 inch pond gravel. Total gravel thickness I try to keep around 2 inches. Weeds are never an issue and are easily controlled on my many walk through inspection tours.

I don't consider myself a purist by any stretch but I have learned my lesion by staying away from fabric. My goal now is to duplicate natural growing conditions as is humanly possible.

Dave

Jeffery pine is growing out of a rock at Sentinel Dome in Yosemite.Do you think weed block will stop a conifer from growing?Also my weed block des not stop light ,it is tansparent spun polyester witch i mulch with river stone,as far as organic material is concerned if you want to be pureist the don,t use organic mulch let the plant make its own,IE needles.Most conifers grow where the soil is low in organics and it usually rocky or sandy like the New Jersy pine barrens or the Rocky Mountains.What i am trying to say is everyone has their own way of doing things.I grew Orchids for 25 years and saw how different growers did differt culture almost no one did everything the same.So thats why the make Vanilla AND chocolate Joe

Just one more thing and then i will let it die.I guess no one here ever heard of a Pre- emergence weed treatment.

Looks like I opened a sore here. What I think I'll do is do my next bed half weedblocked and half natural and see how things go. Then I'll choose whatever works. For now though, the path is keeping it's fabric.

Thanks for all the input!

Will

I am not going to comment on the whole fabric throwdown, the plants are much more fun to discuss. I agree with some of the others on using Pendula Bruns for your center piece. I have seen a really mature one in a garden like yours and it was stunning. You can always do some annual pruning to keep the width under control. I think Skylands could get a little wide. There are lot of columnar Pines that would work great, and they take to pruning well.

we are missing one key point ...

THE COST OF THE USELESS BARRIER ...

i spend money on plants... beg chips from tree guys.. and use credit ...

WHY IN THE WORLD YOU WOULD SPEND MONEY on anything but plants..

its an unnecessary cost... IN MY GARDEN ...

if you already own it.. use it.. you can always find out in a decade we were right ..

JUST DONT GO BUY MORE ...

and have a few kids.. and you will learn about saving money on superfluous YUPPIE stuff for your garden ...

ken

Won't buy any more! I promise!! lol

Evilist things in the world list

Hitler, Taxes, Landscaping Fabric, Bin Laden, etc

I got it!!

I love landscape fabric.

Signed,
Landscape Fabric

The only case where it might be useful is if you were dealing with an already established invasive grass like bermuda. The lack of airflow to the soil really adds to compaction and overall soil condition. In a walkway the impact on the surrounding plants should have marginal impact if any.

No Yuppie here.I have been working in the same factory for 41 years.You won't spend mony on fabric but if you mulch with or ganic material you will spend it on that.Whats the matter no LOL in this post.

FFG

Glad to see this debate over the use of fabric has stayed (Mostly) in the light-hearted vein. As a staunch member of the landscape fabric haters group, and knowing you to be relatively new to the whole gardening thing, my recommendation is to not use the stuff in planting beds. Also, you will be opening yourself up to a whole new world of possibility if you familiarize yourself with post-emergence, non-selective herbicides, to wit: Roundup, and its many generic equivalents. I don't believe any herbicide is completely free of potential harmfulness, but this stuff comes close, provided the applicator is of the cautious, careful type.

At any rate, you're on to a nice project. Keep up the good work and keep us apprised of your adventures.

+oM

Okay. That is one thing I have never done and would only do with expert 'supervision'. If you want to suggest a few 'herbicides' that you feel are *pretty safe* for the environment and conifers but also not harmful to animals, I'd be obliged to give them a try.

We have very long growing seasons here and with relatively mild winters and ample summer sunlight, weeds and invasive grasses are a constant enemy.

Thanks again for your help.

Main drawback I've seen to using glyphosate as a maintenance tool is injury from spray drift. Grape vines and rose plants in particular can be amazingly sensitive and badly affected. Horticultural methods researcher C. Whitcomb recommends cutting the top off a plastic bleach bottle and mounting that on the end of the spray nozzle.

The Bottom Line
Geotextiles are not effective weed control solutions for permanent landscapes
Landscape fabrics used in permanent landscape installations will eventually become a high
maintenance issue in terms of appearance, weed control, and landscape plant health
Organic mulches are preferred alternatives for permanent landscape installations as they can be
reapplied throughout the life of the landscape without damaging the existing plantings

A simple solution to protecting smaller plants from RoundUp drift is to cover the ones you want to save.
We've used everything from 1 gal nursery pot to a 55 gal open top drum. Then remove the cover after spray material has dried.

Barbara

the only TRICK to spraying ... ANYTHING...

IS TO LEARN HOW TO USE YOUR SPRAYER ...

we arent talking french perfume to be atomized ...

learn how to make LARGE drops ... and gravity will take it to the ground ...

buy tank .. fill with WATER.. practice on driveway with pressure and nozzle adjustment... until you 'see' drops... they do not blow in the wind...

we are talking VERY LOW pressure ...

once you master it with water.. you can spray anything safely ...

it is NOT a man thing .. more power is better ... less power...

ken

Since we've exhausted the landscape fabric topic (I think), I have another suggestion. Your paths need to be wider than 3'. Four feet is the minimum for you and a wheelbarrow - example: an access path to the compost heap, and that's tight.

Imagine you are walking along the path with a friend, describing your plants and future plans. You need paths wide enough for two people to walk side-by-side. A garden path needs to be at least six ft, eight ft is is better. From your description of the land and your photos, you have plenty of room to make wider paths. You can make them wider at the same time you widen the curves.
You also need wider paths because some of your trees and plants will grow wider than you think and will grow into the paths.

I'm not a landscape designer. Nearly everything I've learned is by trial and error and fixing mistakes. For an answer from experts, you may want to take your questions the landscape design forum - it's usually busy so I'm sure they will give you a better answer -

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/design/

They will be intrigued by your project and your screen name!

Hi.The great thing about this method,I think,is that paths can easily be altered or even be removed completely when the need arises.Imagine in ten years time...maybe just a few stepping stones to get to the back of what has become a not-so-dwarf conifer forest.I would put the emphasis more on the planting lay-out,as 10-year old conifers are surely more difficult to move than paths... T.

The LD forum is famous for recommending wide paths, but that is usually for front entrances. I personally count myself lucky to have a path of two feet in garden areas, as I can rarely twist my arm to take that much room away from plants. Like Tunilla, I think that would be another reason to not put fabric down, it would be easier to expand the beds (Hah, not exhausted :-)). I have a pretty small property though, but even so I think 6 or eight feet is estate size, rather than suburbia. In any case, it's a collector's garden, operating under slightly different rules from those governing your garden-variety landscape design.

Those are nifty blocks, by the way; I like them.

KarinL

I'm taking into account all this advice, and while I am going to leave the landscaping fabric on the path, I'll not be buying more in the future. I'm also going to recontruct the paths to about 4' wide, with broad, sweeping curves and Picea Omorika 'Pendula Bruns' in the center island. Which leads me to my next post...

Picea omorika 'Gotelli Weeping' from Coenosium Gardens for your center plant may be even more desirable. I have one. It's to be no wider at the base than 3 feet when the tree is 35 feet tall and will continue to stay narrow as it continues to grow (at the base). It's perfect.

Landscaping fabric is junk. it decreases air cirulation to the roots and when you pull it up years later (early as a few years) the earth is covered in mold. that isn't healthy. It's even worse when you want to weed. the weeds WILL go through it and the chore to remove them by hand is almost a certain failure unless you're good at carefully pulling them and at that, it's still more of a battle to contain them. and as mentioned above... seeds drift in and whammo.

Get your pre-emergence out early!!! - if that's what you do. You'll still end up with a lot of weeds. Never bought one but you can kill weeds with a flamethrowing device. who knows what will work best for your schedule.

Dax

Had to laugh about the flamethrower/weed burner. We got a small one several years back; when using it I always had my (then 10 yo) son walk behind to stomp out fires. Quite exciting. Watch out for mulch and dry weeds!

Good thing gardener is also a firefighter.

Barbara

PS wonder how many of us immediately did a google search for Picea omorika 'Gotelli Weeping'? I did.

Yeah I have a specimen of Gotelli Weeping. Coenosiums carried it a few years ago along with 'Berliner's Weeping'.

I'll save you the google search, because these are both fantastic photos. Both photos are from Coenosiums website(posted with permission and credit to Bob/Dianne). I believe both trees are on their current property as well(I'm so envious!):

Gotteli's Weeping

Berliner's Weeping

I had thought about one of them as well... I should make a new post, discussing the sizes/features of the weeping serbian spruce, there seem to be several options.

Nice trees, but 'Pendula Bruns' has to be the superior plant.

"Nice trees, but 'Pendula Bruns' has to be the superior plant."

For sure...

Dave

It certainly would have a curvy artistic appeal. I thought about that too while posting.. Sorta perfect for a dwarf conifer garden surrounding one. I'm in agreeance.

Touche!

Dax