Looking for some input on plan

14 years ago

Hi there, I am putting this one out there for some input. I have developed a three year plan for my backyard makeover (from blank slate of sod). Everything shown in colour (sorry for the poor quality from MS Paint) is existing and planted where shown. The yard faces South West and we are in zone 5b. Is there anything here that doesn't make sense as far as selections or can anyone suggest improvements on the selections shown? I am open for suggestions. Thanks everyone.

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Comments (34)

jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
...and yes, I realize this is not singularly conifer-ific, but those are the ones I am looking for input on in this forum. Thanks.
tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
14 years ago
Euonymus alatus is listed as invasive in many areas and the Mugo pine may need more space unless it is a named cultivar. That's about all my mature vision could see. What zone 5 are you in? Nice plan BTW. I might lean toward more bird feeding plants, but that's just me.

tj
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My overall thought: You make me think of one of my best students. She's a wonderful girl, but she has SO MANY IDEAS. And when she writes, it is always sooooo long soooo complicated and brings in sooooo many unrelated ideas. I get lost trying to follow her chain of thought. I'm working with her on paring down her ideas ... on editing and selecting the best material ... on consolidating her thoughts ... on sticking to the point and letting go of things that may be good, but don't pertain to the task at hand. I see the same thing in your plan: You've been gathering ideas ... you've been making lists of the things you want in your house ... but, like my student, you're trying to put in EVERYTHING that might possibly be useful! You're very much in the "gathering phase" of your project. It's time to edit. It's time to consider what you actually need and want. You say you want a single-story home with one living area ... but look at how many secondary living areas you've included: An entertaining room, a craft room/office, a hang-out for the kids, do those stairs go to a basement, an then an exterior entertaining area in the form of a porch? You need to clarify what you actually want, and then -- unless your budget is genuinely unlimited -- consolidate some of these spaces. You seem to want your kids close but not on top of you (that's what we have in the house we're in now, and it's been a nice way to raise the kids), so I'd cut the basement. The basement puts them a world away. I'd also consider consolidating the office and the craft room and the entertainment room: Make them one larger room with a bank of wall cabinets to hold your supplies ... the table you show in the entertaining room can be used for crafts when no one's visiting. This will make your house much more workable. And when you consolidate some of these spaces, it'll be less to build, less to insure, less to maintain, and less to clean. It will be far superior to an overblown room-for-every-function. Numerous specific thoughts: - I understand what you're doing: You want an idea of the type of house you want before you choose the lot -- you want the two parts to evolve together -- keep in mind that when you do find the lot, much of what you want may end up changing. - You say you don't want to waste space on hallways, yet you have MUCH wasted space in hallways. Calling it a galley doesn't change what it is, and you might be able to park a car in that hallway to the master bedroom. Thing is, one floor living requires hallways; otherwise, in a typical rectangular plan, you have no way to reach the edgemost rooms. If you consolidate rooms, as discussed above, you'll see these hallways diminish as well. - You say you want a large kitchen. I doubt you actually do. What serious cooks actually want is an EFFICIENT kitchen. What you've drawn is so spread out that it'll require loads of extra steps for any simple project -- you'll wear yourself out in it. Note that two islands don't particularly work well: you'll always be walking around one. Just the cabinets for this kitchen would cost more than my first starter house (no exaggeration -- I've been pricing kitchen things lately, and a kitchen this size, even with modest choices, would cost as much as a college education), and then you're still looking at counter tops and tile. Cut this kitchen in half, and you'll have something comfortable and workable -- and it'll be vastly superior to this over-sized, dis-functional kitchen. - I love the large, adjacent pantry. Note, however, that you build a pantry this size so that you don't need the large kitchen! Know why your pantry is the best "closet" in the whole house? It's the only one that's in the interior of the house. You want to keep your closets, etc. toward the middle and push your "living rooms" out to the side -- this gives you more windows. - Your breakfast room should scoot left so that it's a part of the kitchen -- you don't want it shoved down by the pantry -- and once you've done that, you really don't need the island seating. Pick one or the other. Remember, you also have a large dining room table right there ... and outdoor seating for meals ... and the table in the entertaining room. How many spaces do you need to eat? Again, you're very much in the "I've seen allllll these good ideas, and I want to put them allllll into my house" phase. Consider carefully what you really want. You said in your initial post that you want a small, window-filled area for your family to eat. Start with that, but don't go overboard. - Note, too, that you have a dreaded pinch-point at the spot where you enter the kitchen from the mudroom. Connected to that thought: Note that ALL the garage traffic will be funneled right through a main area of your kitchen. - Reconsider all those French doors. The set opening into the breakfast room won't be usable once you have a table in the spot -- the inswing of the door will hit the table. If you open those three sets of doors in the living room, you'll close off the pathway to your entertaining room. Likewise, when you open the door to the Entertaining room, you're covering up the fireplace. Consider instead, gliders that look like French doors, but require no inswing. And instead of three doors, consider one door banked by windows; windows are enormously cheaper, and they're also more energy efficient. - I'd cut the laundry room in half. So much wasted floor space. Also note that you have two doors that knock against one another. - I like the concept of having the master toilet accessible from two sides /having it act as a powder room, but the execution is bad: It's a tiny, dark room, impossible to clean without getting down on your hands and knees/up close and personal with the toilet, and uncomfortable to use. If you're going to have this toilet available for the household (and, again, I think that's a practical idea), make the room large enough for comfort. If you have this one available, do you still need the second powder room over by the front door? - You have a pinch-spot by the shower; that is, the area to enter the shower looks narrow. I'd turn the shower 90 degrees and spread it across the back wall, making it large and comfortable. I'd downsize to one sink, which could fit into that currently empty corner, and keep the tub roughly where it is now. - Your dimensions are definitely "off". Note that your tub is the same size as your sink vanities. - Consider your plumbing ... everywhere. For practicality and economy, you want to try to consolidate your plumbing. For example, look at the kids' bathrooms: You have one sink and the toilet on one wall -- good; that's a water wall, and it must be slightly thicker than a plain wall -- but the other sink is around the corner, requiring that a second wall become a water wall. And then the tub is on a third wall. It all adds up, and more water walls also mean more opportunities for leaks. - I think jack-and-jill bathrooms are great, when they're simple. I'd go with a plain bathroom with a door on each end. What you have drawn includes too many doors, which take up space and are just a hassle. Do include some storage in the kids' bathroom though. - Pocket doors are great ... in the right place. The right place is a mudroom door that's rarely closed, but a spot you want to be able to "conceal" when guests come over. Or your craft room, which you want open to the family room so you can keep an eye on your kids while you work, but you want to be able to close it off occasionally when you just can't take their video games anymore. A pocket door is awful for a door that you open/close on a regular basis. For example, anything dealing with a bathroom. Plus, kids destroy pocket doors. - You say you don't want to put lots of space into bedrooms -- and I feel the same way; I just need ample space for the bed and storage -- but using the beds as a guideline, yours are quite generous in size. I'd downsize them, but that's personal opinion. - I'd add a door (perhaps this is the place for a pocket door) on the kids' hang-out room. If you have a couple teenagers in there playing video games, you'll appreciate the ability to close off their noise. However, this room is going to be dark. If you flipped it with the kids' bathroom (which, I know, I know, would rob you of the jack-and-jill concept), you could have windows in the hang-out room. Note that right now you have only one window in that whole bathroom, and it's over the tub, which is impractical (water always wins, and eventually you'll be fixing that leaky window). -You don't really want to waste a corner on a bathroom /closets. The nicest rooms have windows on two walls, allowing in natural light from two sides ... and you have only two rooms that fit this bill: The breakfast room and your master. - All your closets have doors that open "in". Consider how you'll reach the clothes behind those inswing doors -- you'll have to enter the closet and close the door behind you. Not convenient. - In a house that is over-sized, I see one area that's skimpy: The back porch. Oh, it's wide enough a-plenty, but if you want it to be useful for entertaining, it needs to be at least 10' wide. Mine is 12' wide, and it is perfect. We can walk by the table /reach the door without scootching.
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jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
I am pretty sure E. Alatus is OK here. We are in Southwestern Ontario, about smack in the middle between Toronto and Detroit. Thanks for the feedback.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
14 years ago
i cant read the names on the plat .... and i did try linking etc ....

please explain how you came to conclusions about spacing plants that never stop growing...

conifers size estimates are at 10 years .... they have an annual growth rate.. and will grow at that rate for your entire life ....

so IF I COULD READ THE MAP .... i would be looking for how you spaced then at the 10 year age.. 20 year.. etc ...

or whether you choose dwarves or minis ...

ken
dcsteg
14 years ago
Anyone who designs a planting for their garden usually doesn't take into consideration...how big will it be in 10-15 years. The look is usually for today and a few years down the line.

Whatever you plant will eventually out grow your design if you live long enough.

Plant it as you have designed it with the thought of replacing some of the cultivars as they age.

Good plan...you did your home work...go for it.

"IF I COULD READ THE MAP". Ken...get some glasses or take a class in elementary landscape design...LOL

Dave
james_va
14 years ago
Looks pretty cool. I'm sure you know that conifers (and grasses) tend to need light, so I would just make sure that nothing is overhanging them and that there's an adequate "light space" around them, even in 10 years, that doesn't require drastic pruning of the deciduous plants to maintain. But it looks good, and like a relaxing place. Best of luck,

-James
rain2fall
14 years ago
That's looks like a really pretty plan. You could try posting it over on the Landscape Design forum, too.

Rain2Fall
jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
Thank you for all your input. FYI, I have used 10+ year sizes for the plan. If something gets too big or overcrowded, well, time to chop it down I guess, but if I get 10-15 years out of something I enjoy, well I think it is worth it.
jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
OH AND THANKS TO YOU TOO KEN...HOPE YOU CAN READ THIS
jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
Updated with larger font...hope this helps. BTW, somebody at another forum suggested maybe too many Japanese Maples (is there such a thing?), I am open to colourful conifers to replace. Thanks again for suggestions.
{{gwi:52231}}
texjagman
14 years ago
I too am working on a 2 year plan in which we are re-doing all of our garden beds. It's agressive but fun. So it's good to see someone else's plans to see how they intermingle species.

For perspective, can you tell us the width and length of that plan?

mark
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
14 years ago
I won't comment on the species selection (is it possible to have TOO many Japanese maples??) or placement, but I will add my comments to those about scale. To put it simply, something is rather off --- the deck chair you have drawn in is as large or in some cases larger than many of the intended trees. The convention used in landscape plan drawings is to draw the plants in at 2/3 to 3/4 their expected mature size. And it is always appropriate to show the scale the plan is drawn to and orientation (which way is north?). To get a better idea of how all these plants may fit together, try drawing an elevation view. Take a photo of the existing situation(s) and either use similar software to draw in the plants (at an appropriate size) or use tracing paper over the photo and sketch them in.

As a professional landscape designer myself, it is relatively easy for anyone with access to decent software or with good drawing skills to generate a "pretty" plan. But a pretty landscape plan is not necessarily a good landscape plan :-)
gardener365
14 years ago
Nice lawn, nice plants but I have a few suggestions for substitutions:

Sweetgum - very messy & painfull tree. Others: Acer truncatum, Acer griseum, Acer opalus, Nyssa sylvatica;

Picea abies 'Pendula' I'd consider something else such as Abies alba 'Green Spiral' or Abies balsamea 'Weeping Larry'.

Karl Forester grass not too impressive I'd find a better Miscanthus variety. I also like: Muhlenbergia capillaris

Euonymous I'd substitute for something else with fall color.
Deciduous Azaleas would be my first pick; Blueberry (need moist acidic soil); Enkianthus campanulatus

Bamboo I'd substitute: Fontanesia fortunei

Sango Kaku - very unhardy zone5 maple - you may try others such as Acer palmatum(x)circinatum 'Herbstfeuer'

You've got a lot of palmatum: How about some Acer japonicum and Acer shirasawanum.

'Green Arrow' good plant. I think a better plant is 'Jubilee'.

Dax
amidheliot
14 years ago
gardenj-

Dax brings up some very good points and some nice alternatives as well!

He is absolutely correct that the Sweet Gum is a messy tree. Why do you like it. It has interesting bark (Sub. Acer griseum), nice fall color (sub. any of a thousand dif. trees). Unless you are set on the Sweet Gum, then go for it!

The Picea abies 'Pendula', nice selections, I have several, but so does every Tom, Dick or Harry. There are many other less common selections to choose from. Why do you like it, I'm guessing because of its pendulous habit? Abies alba 'Green Spiral' is a terrific tree, I have one that is only about 2' tall. It becomes a great focal point as it gets larger. It is not only pendulous, but the branches grow in a spiraling or contorted fashion. I also like Picea abies 'Frohburg', very similar to 'Pendula', but more restrained with a little better form. Also, the pendulous Picea pungens are great, and less common. P.p. 'The Blues' the the bluest and best of the three I have in my opinion. There are also some really neat Larix selections. They are deciduous conifers.

I like the selection of the Reed Grass, they are more controllable. They naturally stay more compact and require a lot less work. I have planted 2 Miscanthus on the corner of my deck to provide a soft corner, and block visibility from the neighbors. Works great, but I have to split it every year, and currently it spreads about 5 feet down each side of my deck at the top. I then planted the Reed Grass along the front of the deck every couple of feet in place of a railing. All I have done to it is trim it down each spring.

Dax is correct, scrap the Euonymous. Looks terrible after a few years. VERY susceptible to scale, require a lot of upkeep to keep looking decent. There are SO MANY better alternatives.

'Green Arrow', another great selection. I agree that the 'Jubilee' is a slightly better one. I have both along with a 'Van der Akker' which is my favorite. It will get only about 18" wide. It is the classic "Dr. Seuss" tree!

When it comes to the Acer palmatum's, plant "whatever makes your toes tingle" to steal Ken's line. I'm just starting to add them to my gardens so I'm still getting to know them. Right now I am planting what looks "cool", and if I don't like it, I'll move it or cut it out. Used correctly they look awesome mixed with conifers. I suggest you look at some of fire fighter's past post. He has done a magnificent job with them and is very knowledgeable with the maple's and always ready to offer suggestions.

Good luck.

Eliot

Here is a link that might be useful: Good Maple/Conifer Combo Pics
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
14 years ago
Narrowness of the various nootka cypress cultivars may be overestimated. They often develop basal branching or 'skirts' that easily exceed the width of any top growth, not to mention the development of sometimes random lengthy lateral growth. I would most definitely allow much more than 18" for any of these - 4-5' minimum is more appropriate.

I'd also question the 'unhardiness' of Sango Kaku in zone 5b. For one, according to the OP, it is an already established tree and two, it is in what appears to be a somewhat protected location. Finally, a good many folks have had success growing this tree in zone 5 - it is no more or no less hardy than any other Acer palmatum.
jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
I updated the plan at the top of this discussion with some suggestions...ie replaced the A.p. Orange Dream with A.s. Autumn Moon, deleted the off putting deck chair, added dimensions and orientation of yard. Also an important point is that, if you haven't figured it out, I am a fall season fella and that is the slant of my design. Thanks again for the all the feedback...keep it coming!
jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
Try this...
dcsteg
14 years ago
The Sango Kaku is a trash Acer palm. Twiggy, un-equal growth habit and does not survive Zone 5. In the big freeze in April 2007 it was the only one of my Acers that did not survive.
jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
Ok, thanks...Tell me how you really feel. LOL. Mine is just a two year seedling and I am not fully committed to it. I might find a spot for it on the other side of the house. Any other suggestions in its place that is relatively same size and would contrast nicely with the Emperor 1 next to it? A. Shir. Aureum maybe?
gardener365
14 years ago
Acer palmatum 'Calico' is a favorite of mine.

Click on Icon to see photo:
{{gwi:664013}}

Dax
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
14 years ago
I'm willing to acknowledge a difference in climates that could affect appearance but I think it's a bit much to uniformly label 'Sango Kaku' a "trash" palmatum! Unfortunately I don't have any photos to document it, but the 15 year old SK in my former garden was easily the best looking JM in my collection. About 18' tall and as wide, a perfectly shaped crown and stunning winter appearance. In full sun, never any scorch, good fall coloring.......what's not to like? It was located prominantly in my front garden and in winter with the raindrops hanging off the red branches or coated in snow, it literally would stop traffic. It was one of the primary selling points when I sold my house (the garden was waaay better than the house :-))

Because of the popularity of this cultivar, I believe that, much like 'Bloodgood', this selection has been over propagated and very likely from some inferior stock, resulting in the mixed performance it is reputed to provide. But if the tree is purchased from a reputable vendor - not Home Depot, ebay or similar - there is no reason the tree will not be as healthy, hardy or appealing as any other JM cultivar.

FWIW, if you search through the posts on the Maples forum, you'll find a good number of people that grow this tree very successfully in zone 5.
gardener365
14 years ago
It's blacklisted here gardengal. You'll have to trust us!

gardenj76, you actually should really 'tightly' research which selections of maple you're going to attempt to grow break early and which do not. There are some that are a week, 'possibly more...' that emerge prior to others . . .

Dax
jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks for all your input. One last question, I have found a small Picea Glauca Pendula on year end sale here and was just wondering if anyone can confirm growth rate so I can estimate how long it will take to be a noticeable focus in the design (ie 10-12 feet). The one I have found is a 1 gallon specimen about 12" high.
dcsteg
14 years ago
Picea pungens 'Glauca Pendula' in 2000...the little blue guy to the left of my better half. About 3 ft. tall
{{gwi:681917}}

Same one today at 12 ft. It was staked for upward growth un-till this year other wise it tends to wander off in some new direction usually the way you don't want it to go. In my case I don't have the room for this option.
{{gwi:836260}}

I would say once it takes hold, about 3 years, it will put on a 1 ft. a year.

Dave
dansgrdn
14 years ago
Dave, you still have the nicest Picea pungens 'Glauca Pendula' I've ever seen.

Here's a picture of my Picea glauca 'Pendula'. It was planted in 2004 at about 3 1/2 feet and now is just over 12 feet. I imagine a 12" inch plant would take a couple of years to take off, but then in my experience you can expect 12-18" of growth per year.
I also agree with 'Sangu kaku' not being the best choice for a Zone 5 garden. I have no doubt that it develops into a beautiful tree in the PNW but in Zone 5 it has unsightly die back on a pretty much yearly basis so if it doesn't die on its own you'll want to put it out of its misery.

Dan
jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
Oops, made a mistake about the aforementioned Sango Kaku Acer...I checked the tag and it is actually a Aka Kawa Hime, a dwarf coral bark maple. Is this any better or does it still possess the same 'trash' qualities of it's big brother?
dansgrdn
14 years ago
The same is true for 'Fjellheim', but I have not tried 'Aka Kawa Hime'. If you have it already, you might as well give it a shot. You'll know in a few winters whether it's going to work or not. I forgot to say nice design. I especially like the flow of the beds. It's great that you have an overall plan for your garden that you're working toward. Mine unfortunately was done more on the fly, as my plant interests grew. If I had it to do over again, I'd start with a plan as you have. Good luck with your project. It looks like it's going to be a winner.

Dan
futureconiferqueen
14 years ago
Beautiful job of layering, Dan. Form, height, color....very nice!
jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
Dan, Dave; thanks for pics. I think I like the strict upright habit of the Picea Glauca Pendula a little more for my space needs.

Dan, what is the variety of maple (glowing orange) on the left border of the picture? Awesome colour.

Thanks again.
gardener365
14 years ago
A little extra shoveling never hurt anybody, Dan. Not in your case.

You're in the books so to speak.

Dax
dansgrdn
14 years ago
gardenj76, I have 45 Japanese Maples and there are a few that I'm not sure about and unfortunately this is one of them. I purchased it as one of those tiny e-bay grafts about 5 years ago. I think it's 'Suminagashi' but I'm not 100% positive. It's fall color is supposed to be crimson but this year it's orange.

Thanks futureconiferqueen and Dax!

Dan
dcsteg
14 years ago
Dan ...I might add that your Picea g. 'Pendula is choice. I like that conifer so much I have two. They make such a great focal point conifer with the benefit they don't take up much space width wise. The main challenge is to keep this cultivar on the straight an narrow. Occasionally they will put out a inconstant growth or leader. When that happens get the Felco out and snip away.

Designing a scale landscape garden before I even stick a shovel in the ground is not for me. I add one island at a time with no regard what is next. I do design the next island by laying a hose on the ground to get the contours just right for good flow and balance with what is already there.

As far as what plants to use...I have no idea. I know it when I see it. One or two focal point conifers is the norm and I build in around them with conifers and companion plants that give good color and balance. Rocks and occasional berm complete the overall design. As my garden matures I occasionally transplant those that have out grown their area into my new design. It's kinda like having your own nursery to choose from. It also gives you the excuse go go buy new cultivar to replace the one you have moved.

I would not recommend any of you to follow in my foot steps of garden planning. For most of you a detailed plan to work off is the only way to go. I turn most offers, 99% anyway, to design and build gardens because I design and build as I go. Most people want to see what they are getting on paper and want it in and done yesterday. I garden solely for the pleasure of it. It's not work and when the day comes that it is work I'll move on to something that isn't. I don't think that will happen as long as I don't run out of dirt, plants and the ability to think on my own. I have arrived and I am not going easily.

Dave
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
14 years ago
oh cool THANKS !!!!! i can read the new one...

very top ... is that 3 P. p. hoopsi???

dont see a scale.. but take a gander at the 3 pics below ... that was a one gal.. one foot hoopsi in 2003 .... the first pic is 2005 .... the second 2007 .. and the last is 2008 ....

the darn things are weeds ....

the trick is to go the the ACS site.. and find annual growth rates ... which on hoopsi should be about 18 inches.. and then base your spacing on such ....

i just dont see how 3 hoopsi .... on your map ... wait.. i just looked again .. under 57' is one giant hoopsi .. and 3 waterfalls or something???? if so ... ignore the above... lol

the point.. if i have one.. is to overspace your plants.. rather than jamming them in for immediate gratification.. especially in regard to conifers and trees ... and avoid powerlines with things with big potential ...

over on the left.. you seem to have a rather small space for a sweetgum... is there a dwarf cultivar .. if not... it will be rather aggressive ....

regardless.. again its all about annual growth rates ..

i also see a french drain on the right .... are those plants chosen for water acceptability????

you also have a P strobus pendula... right next to the patio .... google the latin.. you might find some 50 footers .... you might want to look into a smaller weeper like mugo uncle fogey

its all about growth rates.. instant gratification.. and the willingness to admit mistakes 5 or 10 years down the line.. when you have no other option than to remove something you paid a lot of money for.. because it is swallowing up a path.. a patio ... or green grass ...

while at the ASC site ... look for the tutorial about the classifications of mini, dwarf intermediate and large plants ....

I WISH YOU ALL THE LUCK IN THE WORLD .... failure is not an option.. but be fearless .... the worse thing that can happen.. is you succeed beyond your wildest dreams.. and the things grow like the weeds they are ....

good luck

ken

ps: on way to delay the inevitable is to start with second year grafts.. in other words.. very small .. to eek out a few extra years of fun.. before you have to teach it a lesson .... perhaps invest in a few larger.. but blend in some smalls ...

{{gwi:836262}}

{{gwi:822806}}

{{gwi:689859}}

Here is a link that might be useful: link
jeremywalsh
Original Author
14 years ago
Ken, thanks for the feedback. My Hoopsi is currently about the size of the top photo you show (2005 date). I have it sized for approx 12 ft wide as shown in the plan. Again, this is an estimate based on 10yr growth rate descriptions available. Thanks again.

Dan, your garden is amazing and often serves as inspiration for my designs. Thanks for taking the time to provide feedback.

Looking for some input on plan

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jeremywalsh
Original Author

jeremywalsh
Original Author

jeremywalsh
Original Author