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Cottage Gardens

Changing out shade trees

15 years ago

How does one go about removing shade trees and planting new ones without losing all the shade loving plants beneath? Dh and I agree our Chinese tallow trees need to go. Any thoughts on good small space trees that do not mess with water lines? Thanks for your help... Debbie

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Comments (9)

todancewithwolves
15 years ago
A fruit tree perhaps? or our native crape myrtles (which are very drought tolerant).

Edna
rosefolly
15 years ago
You might consider putting up some shade cloth for a couple or three years while the replacement tree grows into the job of shading the plants below.
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Pinus strobus is white pine. This one can stand a little bit of wet feet. Most conifers do not like wet soil, their roots will grow shallow along the surface of the soil, being a pain, and also making them susceptible to getting tipped over in a high wind storm. Exceptions for your zone are hemlock, white cedar (arborvitae) and tamarack/american larch. Cedar and larch don't make good shade trees although I think both are gorgeous. Hemlocks do eventually, if you trim the bottom branches, but they are slow growers. That's why I recommended white pine. I worked at a camp that used it extensively for reforesting, and it eventually makes a nice shade tree if grown out in the open. Doesn't like wet soil, but is tolerant and hardy of both wet and dry, and shade. There are other trees, but I'm partial to natives. You could grow cottonwood or other poplars, but a lot of folks don't like the fuzzy seeds they produce. Maybe you could get some seedless ones, but I don't see this tree often in local nurseries. Most fast growing poplars die fast too, so they might be good to plant quick until the other stuff gets going and then use as firewood. Ash is also a good fast growing tree, but they are having problems with european ash borer so I'd be a little cautious on that one. American elm was once a preferred tree for this kind of application, but dutch elm disease did it in. I've heard there are resistant varieties out there, depends on how adventurous/experimental you want to get.
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Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions. I don't really know how hard cattle or other livestock would be on mature trees in other regions and management systems, but I know that lots of trees can survive the pressures of livestock in my system: in my pasture rotations (mostly along the edges but within the paddocks) I currently have a sycamore, pines, alders, red oaks, black walnuts, red cedars, and tulip-poplars, and they've all done fine. Tulip-poplars and red cedars seem like they might be harder to get through the earlier years but not too hard. I hadn't initially thought pecans for a few reasons. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on these issues. First, pecans are such a large tree that they'd give me more shade than I'd need for the animals, and I don't think I want that extra competition with the grass. Secondly, pecans seem like awfully small nuts to try to find in pasture-type grass. Would bush hogging be sufficient to get the grass down low enough to find most of the nuts? Thirdly, what about manure contamination? I would want the shade most of all in the summer. Could I let manure fall under the tree all summer and then safely harvest the nuts immediately afterwards? On the one hand, I figure I need tall trees to grow above the reach of the livestock, which would make a crop that fell to the ground practical, but on the other hand, there are the issues of manure and finding the crop in the grass, so that leads me to think relying on ladders might be a good compromise. Any suggestions for a particular mulberry cultivar? Some varieties seem to have more tree-like form than others. I think I'd want a tree with a trunk that went straight up beyond where cattle could reach and then formed its canopy. ORwoods, you mentioned figs. I do have some figs near my barn, and I've noticed when I've had animals on leads walking past my figs (or when they've gotten out of the fence) that they've never seemed interested in the fig bush. Are there specific varieties of figs that could better be trained to more tree-like form (as with the mulberry)? What about kaki persimmons? Would they even get big enough? Could I get extra height/trunk by grafting a kaki 6 foot high on a D.v. rootstock? Could that work?
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How many feet is it from the house to the front flower bed? How many feet from the sidewalk that leads from the house to the neighbors property line to the left? I'm not sure how you'd get the shading to the porch you want without blocking the view of the house from the street. How does the sun travel over your house? What side of the house does the sun rise and set? Do you want shading to the 2nd floor windows eventually? Are their any underground utilities on the left side of the front yard? I'm asking a lot of questions, aren't I! I do like the three trees you chose, but don't have any of them, so I can't help you with their growing habits. I think a non-fruiting crab would be great too. I guess I'm asking how large a height and spread would you like and what dimensions would be too big? Is the dogwood at the back of the house on the left side?
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Don't plant a Magnolia if you're worried about mess. Someone planted one 50 years ago next to our pool. It is absolutely beautiful and give great shade to the south side of the house, BUT it is very, very messy. The large leaves drop all year, heaviest in the spring, and they take years to decompose. In the summer the beautiful flowers drop bud sheaths and then petals. Later in fall, heavy cones drop and bring tons of squirrels who pull them apart after the seeds and leave a mess everywhere. Plus the cones are kinda spiky, painful if you accidentally step on one, plus a tripping hazard. So yes, a beautiful majestic tree...for the outer edges of a property, not near a patio. You have been warned, lol. The Africarpus gracilior is a pretty good choice, they do get huge with age, but are fast and pretty clean, and handle heat and soil compaction well. Josue Diaz's suggestion of Brachychiton populneus is a good choice too, lovely tree, too tender for where I am, but should do great for you. Stan's suggestion of a Tristaniopsis laurina is a good one too, but pretty slow growing. If you want shade soon, I'd get the largest one you can find. It will be expensive, but save you several years waiting. I love Ficus microcarpa (Indian Laurel)! Beautiful tree, gorgeous white smooth trunk! I just got back from visiting my daughter in San Luis Obispo and the downtown streets are lined with them and they're very majestic. Do be aware that they can get very large buttress roots with age, but if you give them lots of root room near the patio, but not right next to or in the patio, they should be fine.
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todancewithwolves
15 years ago
Rosefolly has a great idea. Which brings to mind...is it in the backyard? If so, how about a beautiful patio with lattice cover and vines growing up. Maybe a grape vine or wisteria.

I'm coming down to help (if only I could) :-)

Edna
girlgroupgirl
15 years ago
Or plant your new trees BEFORE you remove the old trees. When new trees are tall enough, take the old out.

GGG
debbieca
Original Author
15 years ago
I have thought of all those ideas and just wasn't sure which would work best.
I am thinking of crape myrtle, Edna. It might be forever before they are big enough for shade.
Limbing up the existing trees to make room for the smaller might help, as would temporary shade. It is just a bit daunting to figure it all out. I also started with two shade trees and not sure that is what I want to do this time. Here is a link to that part of the yard.

Here is a link that might be useful: shady garden
todancewithwolves
15 years ago
I've always loved your garden. I've never seen anyone grow astilbe as beautiful as yours and PattiOh.

I learned a great trick from Paul James, Gardening by the Yard show. Get a pvc pipe, drill holes in the sides of the pipe, place it vertical in the ground next to the roots of your young tree. It allows oxygen to the roots and the tree grows faster. I really works!!! I did it to my olive tree and the stella cherry. They are huge now.

Edna
gldno1
15 years ago
Edna, thanks for that great tip.

We have sort of the same problem with our front yard. It is very close to the street and there is a row of huge silver maple trees which an arborist told us are all hollow and not long for this world. He suggested planting new trees closer in to the house so that when we had to remove them we would not be so "exposed". The one birch we planted 14 years ago has just stood there. I am going to try the pvc pipe trick.

I mention this to warn Debbie that trees planted with nearby trees draining all the nutrients and moisture take a very long time to grow.

If possible I would try the lattice over areas needing shade and just take the trees out. I hate cutting down mature shade trees....we lost so much during the last ice storm that I really value them!
rosefolly
15 years ago
When we had a crape myrtle planted about ten years ago, it was planted with a piece of PVC pipe with holes just as Edna described. We were told it was for watering, so that water would get down to the lower part of the root ball. I carefully filled it with water every week for the first year to be sure the water reached that area. I wonder if I did more harm than good? No matter, the tree survived being blown completely over two years in a row during our winter storms, and today is a large and handsome tree. It has finally even given up its habit of throwing out suckers from the base and knows it is truly a tree, not a shrub.
Eduarda
15 years ago
Debbie, FWIW, I was going to mention chinaberry (Melia azedarach), but I did a little research and found a lot of negative information, the tree being considered invasive in many areas of the US (not California, though, as far as I could see). Anyway, I just wanted to mention the name and you might do some specific research for your area.

Melias are one of the most common shade trees here (the others being sycamores, but they're probably too big for your yard) and they do wonderfully in our dry warm Summers. They are a multi-season interest tree and I especially love them in Winter when the fruits hang in golden clusters from the naked branches. They are also fast growing, which means the wood may be brittle, but if you need shade fast you might consider them, even though I suspect you would still need some additional shade gadget to cover your shade plants in the meantime.

Not sure how much of a shade tree this would be, as I'm not sure of the adult format of the plant, but I love scarlet oak (quercus coccinea) and I believe this is one of the smaller oaks. Slow growing of course.

With trees, the quicker they grow, the more likely they are to be weak and brittle, so you should decide first whether you want (sort of) instant gratification or you're planting for the future, in which case you would need additional measures to provide shade now.

Eduarda

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