ok tex ... i will try again ...

link below to ACS tutorial .... go down to the definition, by annual growth rates of the various kinds of plants .. mini .... dwarf .. etc ....

and let me preface that with telling you.. that if momma is a 300 foot tall tree ... then a dwarf of her could be a bare 200 feet tall ... [an exaggeration for sure]

its all about that annual growth rate.. and how many centuries a tree or conifer can live ....

so from the second website you mention.. i glean this part: putting on only 4 to 6 inches of new growth each year ... presume 6 inches... and presume starting with a one gal 2nd year graft that is 6 inches ....

in ten years.. it will be 6 inches plus 60 [6in x 10 years] or 66 inches tall ... which is around 5.5 feet.. give or take how hard a time it had getting 'established'

if you pay the bucks..and start with a four footer.. you will have a 10 footer .. in fewer years ...

while at the asc.. hit the tab at the top for the dB .... and in the second box.. put koz ... and hit enter... there you will be told that the annual growth rate is ... lol... Intermediate: 6-12" (15-30cm) per yr., 6-15' (1.8-4.5m) at 10 yrs. ... i tend to go with the ACS data .... [you will note our own bill barger entered the info from the noted book ... though i hate to admit it.. bill kinda knows this stuff... lol] ...

now you have to do all your math again.. since this growth rate is substantially different than the others ...

as an aside.. i cant grow these in my z5 .. so it fascinates me they claim this is z4...

anyway ... i told both you 'plan' guys... that you have to be prepared to take trees and conifers out.. when they outgrow the allotted spot ...

personally.. i would much rather you grow something that makes your toes curl for a decade or 2 .. and then sacrifice it to the conifer God's.. rather than 'settle' for something non-descript that fits ...

any help????

ken

ps: if you found any pix... you ought to be able to glean an annual growth rate from the leader growth .... or other pattern of growth .... counting whorls sometimes .... without a scale it might be hard.. but you ought to be able to tell the difference between 3 to 6 inches and 6 to 12

PPS: have you seen the variegated umbrella pines... i think Bethlehem had some at one time .... variegated stock tends to grow at a slower annual rate.. and does.. without question.. curl ones toes .... lol .. mail order is the way to go for the truly extraordinary stuff ...

Here is another link that might help explain why different growers have different experiences with growth rates.

Oh, I do grasp the whole growth and scale points. I may not have the experience to visually speculate very well based upon whorl pictures, but what I'm talking about and having difficulty with is the inconsistancy with which these producers list their statistics. The four sites I noted show a mature spread of 6-30' on this one tree. In fact, I have seen on Iseli's site since they changed their software recently, they are now providing quite a bit less info on potential sizes then they used to.

While I understand growing conditions and situations vary.....in fact that is why I am confident anything we grow here will be on the low end of the spectrum due to our heavy clay soil and very hot humid summers....I just wish the suppliers would get together and standardize a little more on their information, especially on these exotics. That way you wouldn't have to research everything to death before you buy it.

And I am planting attempting to balance my enjoyment today with what I feel my lifetime might be. I just want things to grow together, and not kill each other before I'm gone.

mark

I'm newer to the Conifer world myself and understand your point. Many of the various cultivars of this and that are newer trees grown or grafted for their yellow or blue new growth or contorted habitat.

For centuries folks have been watching sweetgums (Liquidambar) grow. It is plum easy to bet 80% of Pin Oaks planted in suburban yards will get approximately this big and die.

My Sunkist Arborvitae, who knows, and then thanks websites confuse things by putting their 10 year height up. Who puts a 10 year height up for a October Glory maple? Only in the Conifer world lol.

Ken makes a point. Conifers for decoration can be removed. Plant what you want, who knows what the garden will look like in 15 years when that tree is too large. Some will make it, some won't. Worse, I always find new trees I want!

To use a non Conifer example I figure if my Fagus sylvatica Purpurea Tricolor or Ilex aquifolium Ferox Arg.Marg.
English Holly rose-marg.)var.beech grow to 50 feet tall I'd have a great problem, a glorious specimen to garden around that even non-tree folk notice.

Ken, following your suggestion I went out and looked at variegated forms of Sciadopitys verticillata. I found a couple I liked....Mr Happy and Variegated J Rizz.

Any thoughts or experiences with either of these two, or suggestions of one you might like better?

mark

how about simplifying it even further ... perhaps its an issue of the meaning of words ....

when your child matures .... HE STOPS GROWING ... its not just about sexual maturity.. but height and width .... though as the years pass.. i seem to be expanding in width .. lol ...

a conifer.. when it matures... sets cones [the sex component]... BUT DOES NOT STOP GROWING .... hence the annual growth rate issue ...

no tree.. ever... stops growing.. short of death ... they may slow down after 100 years .... but will still extend that canopy ... by definition.. they have to.. since they lose needles sooner or later.. and to replace them.. they must grow new ones on new wood ....

PERHAPS.. too many peeps think maturity at a given height/size.. means size will stop there ... it wont..

also note.. some of this stuff is just so new... there really isnt all that much info out there ...

joe finds a broom... send it to grafting... 2 years later they hit the market.. in the interim.. a few other grafters get some... 5 years down the line.. there are 100 out there.. and frankly.. no one has grow it for more than 5 years.. and all they have is a hyper-fertilized stock plant .. and whether or not the graft will grow consistent is unknown ...

when you boil it all down... this is part of the fun of the game.. otherwise we wouldnt have anything to talk about.. lol ...

ken

I have experience with 4 variegated cultivars of Sciadopitys verticillata:
'Mr. Happy' (originated at Buchholz and Buchholz)
{{gwi:829822}}

'Papagei' (originated at the Wittbold-Müller Nursery, Germany)
{{gwi:829823}}

'Variegated' (originated in Japan)
{{gwi:829825}}

'Marilyn Monroe' (brandnew selection from Wiel Linssen, Holland, unfortunately no photo availlable yet.)

My opinion is that all these 4 variegated cultivars do not grow much slower then the species, there are several (green)dwarf cultivars selected and availlable.

I really like Mr Happy

mark

A couple of good dwarf varieties:
'Little Filip'
{{gwi:829826}}
This is a seedlingselection found by myself.
It's yearly growth is half the size comparing to the the species which you can see at the left site.

'Mecki'
{{gwi:829827}}
This is a seedling selection from the Wittbold-Müller Nursery in Germany.
It grows extremely slow and the needles are about 4 cm. long.

A 3th good dwarf selection found between seedlings is 'Grüne Kugel' (translated 'Green Globe').
It's also found by the Wittbold-Müller Nursery in Germany.
Unfortunately I don't have a photo availlable yet.

Nice stuff Edwin. I scooped up the photos.

Thanks,

Dax

Is 'Little Filip' openly available yet or is it still private?

The 'Little Filip' is available in Europe since the last 3 years.
I think in the future it will also be available in the U.S.

Wow! Now you've got me wanting one of those! They're beautiful. I didn't know they existed, and now I need at least one; maybe two. Will they grow ok in Oregon's Willamette Valley?

Rain2Fall

you will be wildly let down if you start coveting plants from the continent ...

try the link below ... i dont know how current the pdf's are ... so i suggest a phone call if you get really excited about something .. mail order at the appropriate time of year ....

since grafting season is coming up soon ... and IF you are looking for something rare .... and IF it is not in stock.. then you MIGHT get him to graft your treasure this winter ... for delivery next fall ...

in other words.. dont rely on the WWW ....

ken

Dwarfs will get pretty large when they are 30-40 years old. 'Mecki' is 2 m after 30 years + - and 'Sternschnuppe' is 4 m + after 35 years. 'Joe Kozy' is 3 m after only 12 years at my place. A vigorous grower. Best variegated forms here: 'Papagei' and 'Marilyn Monroe'. other variegated forms are more tender.

Here's Cryptomeria japonica, 'Nana' after a little more than 30 years in my garden. It's described as 'low growing'.
The top of that little kid's playhouse is 6 ft. or about 2 meters tall.
The blue is Dianthus. One of the real fragrant varieties.
The little dog is my daughter's. I call him Ewok, from Starwars.
Mike

Does Ewok live in that Crypt?

as i like to say ... confers are trees... and they never really stop growing ...

apparently.. this ewok did ... lol

ken