first year grafts and winter issues

9 years ago

i got quite a deal on some first year grafts ... just got them ...

how would you deal with them???

just plant them out???

pot them and polebarn them??? moving them in say.. january.. if i can avoid breaking a toe... trying to dislodge a pot frozen to mother earth.. been there.. darn near done that.. lol ...

cold z5 MI ... where i had a z4 winter last year .. and hold no hope.. for anything mild this year ... [lot of optimism there.. lol]

a third option would be to pot them up ... and simply tip them over.. just before snow fall.. and let snow blanket them ... if only i could be sure of said insulators depth ...

i think.. my biggest fears .. are harsh winter wind desiccating them [the greenery rather than a root concern] .... and mid winter thaw.. with pot thaw .. following by dropping back under zero within a few days... what i call ..... going in and out of dormancy ... [the root concern] ....

give it your best shot.. what would you do.. in my area ... speculate .. i dont care...

one thing for sure.. they have to go into the ground.. or a proper pot .. by this weekend ...

what do some of you home grafters do with this type of stuff?????

ken

ps: when i was new to my learning curve.. a decade back or so ... i lost on this type of situation [i think i put them in my nursery bed...] ... but one would think .. i should know a little more now.. but the bad memories are making me hesitate ...

pps: another option would be a BAP .. as arrowhead bob used to call them ... fill with wood chips... and leave them in the pots they are in.. and hoik that sucker into the polebarn.. done that before ... big azz pot ... BAP ... lol ... and hit it with some snow once in a while .... to keep some level of moisture....

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Comments (11)

jarpe
9 years ago
I had same problem with dozens of first year grafts and i have now planted them all to (what i think is) their final position. They have also chicken wire cage around them (to protect from rabbits), wich also allaws to shade them from late winter/early spring sun.

My nursery friend told me about picea abies that visual parts can tolerate low temperatures down to -50 degrees celcius But roots can only take about -15. So if held in pots, having snow cover is important.
whaas_5a
9 years ago
Low temp hit 0 in my garage last year. ALL my one year grafts died, even hardy ones like Pinus strobus. The scion didn't die the rootstock died.

Plant them out if you want them to live.
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I really have mixed feedback on this issue. I totally agree that the robust growers in cold zones do fine on their own roots and you don't have to worry about suckers from the graft. Too robust growers (like gallicas) can be better grafted so that you can plant the graft ABOVE the soil (only) for those super-hardy roses and avoid the gallica taking over the garden bed. I also agree that grafted roses of the wimpier varieties of HTs and floris are more robust in their first year or two and tend to grow bushy faster than own root versions of those plants. However, I've recently started to experience the down side of grafted HTs in a cold climate. First of all, virtually all of the grafted HTs and floris that I've planted with the graft properly buried have gone own root over time if they've survived. For instance, I bought In the Mood grafted from a local nursery and it was fabulous and bushy in its first year. The second year and for every year after that, it was a knee high one-cane wonder until it finally gave up the ghost and died after about 6 years. The same process has been happening more gradually with my grafted Savoy Hotel. It was lush (maybe 4.5' by 4.5') and incredible in its first year or two, ranking in my top 20 of roses. Every year since then it has declined and come back from the winter more slowly. By August this year, my plant in optimum sun and soil conditions has just now reached almost 3 feet with 3 canes on it and a couple of blooms here and there for the first time all season (nothing at all in June). Here's a contrast picture to show that effect - this is 2013 in June for Savoy Hotel at its full 4.5'x4.5' glory. Savoy Hotel is at the bottom right corner keeping up with Madame Isaac Periere in the back of it with no trouble. Granted, this was a particularly good rose year, but you can see the relative sizes. Now just one year later in 2014, here's Savoy Hotel in front of MIP (bottom center) also in June, and this was an average rose year for me. It's too late for MIP on the shepherd's hook to be blooming, but you can see MIP's height by the purple clematis. Notice that she's now in 2014 only 3' high and has about 4 blooms every couple of weeks. She has declined from that since, even though she's still a very nice rose. I don't have any more recent bush pictures for her since I only get the scattered blooms any more, and only late in the season to boot. One other effect I'm seeing in my older grafted roses this spring in particular is graft failure for a lot of my well-established roses with the graft well buried. Even under the soil, it seems like a grafted rose starts running out of places to grow new basal shoots after a while. For instance, this spring I lost an 8 year old Dream Come True (the tall rose at the left of the first picture) for no good reason that I could see, and it was a mild winter. Sure, you see pictures of 50 year old grafted HTs in warm climates, but those are warm climates. I suspect that if we have a 50 year old HT rose in cold climates that started out grafted and is still alive, it has gone own root in that time and is a robust rose on its own roots. My reluctant conclusions are that if a rose is going to be a wimp, it will reach that state on its own whether own root or grafted. If I get an own root HT rose through its first winter it will increase in size to its sustainable height and vigor and more or less stay there for the duration. If I get a grafted HT rose through its first winter, it will decrease in size to its sustainable height and vigor and stay there till the graft fails or it goes completely own root. There are only a few roses where I think the graft did give the rose a little boost in survival over that first winter, Memorial Day and Oklahoma come to mind, but for the most part I don't think it buys me anything in either survivability or vigor after the first year. That's why I tend to grow my HTs and floris on their own roots. I want to know the long-term height it's really going to be in its early years, I get reliable winter survival of the original rose from own roots if they get to a good size in their first year, and I don't have to dig up a massive root system when it dies or deal with suckers. Just my two cents Cynthia
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jarpe
9 years ago
Then again all my late summer grafts stay potted outside for first winter. Here we have plenty of snow that usually is enough to protect plants from too low temps. Propably they would die here too when held in garage whitout warming.
maple_grove_gw
9 years ago
Hi Ken.

I see little advantage to overwintering in a pot if you're just going to plant come spring anyway. Plant them out now. On the other hand, if you want to grow them on in containers, then obviously you need to overwinter them somewhere.

You don't need to wait until January to bring them into the polebarn. Once temperatures are under 40, your plants are dormant. In my zone, garage overwintering is ideal...my garage is consistently 10 degrees warmer than outside temp's and it never drops lower than 20 F, plus the temperature is buffered so that it doesn't change much night versus day. I've successfully overwintered over a hundred container plants each year for several years now, without losing any (well, maybe one) or having any break dormancy prematurely (never happened). I bring them in any time after Thanksgiving, but certainly before temperatures stay below freezing.

If the temperature in your pole barn stays warm enough for the roots, that's a good option. This would be 10-20 degrees higher than the low end of hardiniess for the rootstock species. If not, you could insulate by mulching into a holding bed, which would just be a larger version of your BAP, big enough to accomodate all your grafts.

whaas, I'm sorry to hear about your losses last year, hope there weren't too many. Were there larger plants that handled it better?

I've read that plants that have been recently up-potted handle cold temperatures better since there are fewer roots on the periphery of the pot.

-Alex
outback63 Dennison
9 years ago
Ken you are asking questions that you advise people on all the time.

Shall I book a place at the Altimers Resort getaway for an extended visit? LOL.

Your best shot...plant them in the ground mound a little straw over them for protection and don't worry.

I never by the small stuff. I am not going to grow them for someone else to enjoy. 3.gal is as low as I go.

Dave
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
Original Author
9 years ago
dave.. do what i say.. not what a do ... worry like an old hen.. .lol ...

the barn removes direct winter sun... direct winter wind ... which is bad in winter ... but it warms sooner in spring .... causing them to leaf out early .... but if i leave them in there... just opening the doors on sunny days.. all is well... lol.. unless you have 1650 pots of hosta coming two months early ... and not enough floor space for them all ...

otherwise... its just as cold as outdoors .... sand floor.. T111 sides ... no insulation ... it never fails to amaze.. below zero.. crippling winds.. and you step in there.. and could open your coat ...

in the ground they go .... maybe a rose cone on one or two ...

ken
baxswoh
9 years ago
Since it is in the ground they go......

treat with a good anti desiccant.
j0nd03
9 years ago
If you have access to a tractor, dig a long trough and plant them all together in one spot and cover it with mulch. Then move them in spring when you know exactly where you want them or up pot them at that time.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
Original Author
9 years ago
lol jon ... there were only 5 ... little over kill there..

they are all planted ...

key comment was: Ken you are asking questions that you advise people on all the time. -- dave wins ...

guilt works wonders ... lol ...

even planted a few from last year ... go figure... caught the headcold from 7734 doing it .... but .. it is done ...

ken

ps: try to remember your first calculator ... punch in the numbers.. turn it around... lol ...
j0nd03
9 years ago
You made it sound like there were 20+ plants
severnside
9 years ago
^^^ Ha ha, the length and plea of the OP indicated at least a truck bed full of conifers.

first year grafts and winter issues

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