define how they are doing 'poorly' .... please ...

what is your native soil?

wait until i get to the picea pix ....

ken

A. concolor is a very uncommon tree in these parts, so when I do run across one its always a treat. I planted a seedling and 'Candicans' last year (both small) and if they're doing anything it's below ground. The seedling suffered pretty significant burn over last winter, while 'Candicans', which is about 15' away in same conditions, had no burn. I experienced the same thing with seedling Korean Fir and 'Silberlocke'.

Here's a mature White Fir located on street corner in Sparta, WI.

Well, how's dead for "doing poorly". Many have almost no live foliage left, if not outright dead yet. A part of this scenario was an almost unbelievable cone crop last summer. Some people thought it was cool, but I looked at it as trouble. I hate being right all the time :( but these trees were in trouble and are now dead or dying. Many P. abies of formerly great condition now in tatters with little or no life in them.

Soil-wise, we're in heavy clay-loam here but I also observed much the same happening in areas fairly nearby having sandier soils. It should be mentioned that some trees appear completely fine. And of course, young stock, say ten years in the ground, are still full of that youthful vigor and are mostly okay.

This is one of the most distressing horticultural events I've witnessed and it's receiving almost no press of any kind, even in pro hort. journals.

Another oddity, to me at least-Thuja o.-a known moisture lover-seems to be coping okay. It's really just spruce that are getting beat up.

There are not enough Abies c. around here Basic, and I too consider it a treat to see them. Ken, I read here once that Michigans state forestry programs plant many of these for reforestration. Is that so? And if so, how do they perform in this purpose?

+oM

i guess no green foliage is poor growth .. lol ...

i thought you were talking garden conifers.. i appears you are talking forestry ... of which.. i must admit.. i know nothing ... where are the purists..

ken

Yes, full-size trees, whether planted for forestry, or in someones yard. Spruceman and I talked about this maybe a year ago. No conclusions reached really. BTW, where is he?

+oM

Chiming in here from Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA. Our native Abies concolor in the nearby Sandia Mountains (topping out at 10678 ft. - 3255 m) sometimes thrives in almost desert like conditions you would not imagine. They are common from 7000 ft. (2134 m) and above on north facing and sometimes inhospitable slopes often growing among Yucca baccata of all species (!) if that tells you anything. Aside from bark beetles (many beautiful trees in Pino canyon were killed recently), they are amazingly hardy trees if established. They are almost as hardy as ponderosa pine in my opinion (at least the trees here). If you love concolor come here!
We have superb specimens in the mountains that have seen it all. I have seen 60 days without rain here in town (with the mountains doing barely better), and my favorite trees are still ticking. I always joked that the Sandia mountains were one of the few places one could see an aspen, a yucca, multiple species of cacti, oak, pine and fir all in one picture. Blue spruce is absent here but the white fir is often mistaken for it due to its color here. One hardy tree. Concolor lovers are missing out if they haven't been to these mountains as there are also some great concolor brooms to be found.

Hope this helps.

That would be a nice vacation... finding, collecting, and distributing brooms to grafters.

Thanks for the inadvertent food for thought fuel.

Dax

Tom:

Where am I? I am at my timberland, trying to clear the right-of-way for a road I am having constructed across the wetland that divides the front part of my land from the back. I have a bad back (spinal fusion in 1973), a right shoulder recovering from surgery, and now my left shoulder with an old rotator cuff tear acting up. I am a basket case but still struggling ahead. AAARRRGGH! the trials of aging!

Well, as for this question, all I can offer is a weak theory. I have talked about the drought tolerance of NS here before, so I won't repeat it except to say it seems to me to be extreme.

I have not observed enough fir trees to be able to make a comparison between Abies and Picea in any way at all.

But what you describe seems to me to be potentially a soil/acid rain problem. A few years ago in parts of Germany there was lot of publicity for a problem with "forest death" --"waldsterben." In the Black forest, the main tree affected was Norway spruce. I am not familiar with the latest research on this, but at one time it was thought to be a result of sulphur dioxide pollution. I am not sure if the effect was something directly affecting the foliage, or if it was something that affected the soil and the availability of nutrients. If the latter, one theory was that some soils had more of a "buffering capability" than others. A local forester told me that the soils here in Garrett County, MD had a fairly good buffering capability compared to some of the soils in other areas affected by acid rain. To the east of here, where acid rain is not so much of a problem, the NS is doing exceptionally well in recent years. Here in Garrett county, in some areas it seems improved, in others it is much as it was 20 years ago. There is not enough Abies around here to make any observation at all.

NS needs some fair amount of soil calcium and magnesium. If I had any NS in your area I would test the soil for calcium and magnesium, and if not at least moderately high, I would add a fair amount of "high-mag" pulverized limestone and see if after a few years there were not some improvement. If so, you might be closer to an answer.

But of course, none of what I say here adresses your question about the comparison between Abies and Picea, unless Picea has a need for a higher amount of calcium and magnesium, of if Abies foliage is more resistant to sulphur dioxide.

P.S. A quick google search turned up the information that two of the most affected species of waldsterben in Germany were NS and silver fir.

--Spruce

The main cause of 'waldsterben' was aluminium / heavy metal poisoning - the increased acidification of the soil by acid pollution resulted in the release of aluminium and other heavy metals from insoluble forms into soluble compounds which were taken up by the trees. This happened most readily in soils which are already low in calcium and magnesium, which (when present) buffer to soil to a pH which stops aluminium etc from dissolving easily.

With pollution control, acid deposition has reduced substantially, so it is less of a problem now than it was in the 70s and 80s.

Spruce and fir drought/heat tolerance is a separate matter; in general Abies average more drought and heat tolerant than Picea; wherever one goes in the northern hemisphere, Abies extends further south and at lower altitude than Picea (e.g. Guatemala vs. northern Mexico; northwest Africa, southern Turkey and Lebanon, vs. southern France, northern Greece and the Caucasus; northern Vietnam vs. southern China). BUT - there is also a lot of variation and overlap between individual species, so some Picea (e.g. Picea martinezii) are much more drought and heat tolerant than some Abies (e.g. Abies amabilis).

Resin

Hi Spruce. I'm gonna have to nix the acid deposition theory. We are in an area of very high calcium/magnesium, hence buffering capacity. Bedrock here is dolomite, and soils are high clay content with very high CEC.

We've had exceptionally dry SOILS during the growing season for three years running now. In other words, even though these idiotic weathermen will summarize a year as being near normal for precipitation, almost none of it fell during May, June, July, August, etc. I still think that adverse weather conditions are putting these trees over the edge. I noticed too that during the 2006 mega coning event, that the portion of the trees where seed cones developed-the upper portion-looked distinctly weaker than the lower portions of the same trees. This was on all Picea. Another oddity to throw in the mix is that Picea pungens, which was increasingly ravaged around here by cytospora, looks a bit better this past year or so, perhaps the best looking spruce around here right now. Dry, dry weather.

I appreciate all commentary on this issue. And I can't understand why our state experts are so quiet on this, though I suspect a bit of native "speciism" at work here. The worst affected-Picea abies-not being a favored tree nor native.

White spruce has also had much damage in recent years "up north". Spruce budworm, and perhaps other insects, taking a huge toll in drought conditions. Though causally related in terms of environmental conditions, a seperate problem. We're not being attacked by budworm on isolated landscape trees.

+oM

Oh and Flattie, I've been on Sandia Mt. Great place! It was May, and around 80 Degrees F in Albuquerque the day we drove up the mountain. Up near the peak, it was about 40, windy, and snowbanks under the fir trees! I was an idiot in my shorts, sandals, and T-shirt. I agree that that is a marvelous assortment of plants growing there. Spent a little time in Madrid that day as well. Kind of a ghost mining town/jewelry mecca. All in all, a very enjoyable time.

+oM