I misread Ken, sorry. That pic was from spring & now it's dead. My fingers are faster than my mind now-a-days lol.

I tried one once...it didn't last a year. Looks like yours had quite the side mounted graft. How long did you have it?

tj

After reading ricksample's post, I guess I should add that my Chief hardly loses ANY needles each year (I think I've had it for 5y now).
The ones that do come off look like they're probably at least 2y old.
Like I said, trouble-free...

gee tree

stanley

my own graft at gee tree .. i dont recall the understock

and gifted one ... dont know source ...

i just want it known.. when someone sees all your glorious pix.. and hits search or google.. they will come up with info about the real plant.. in z5 MI ... ITS CARP ...

its totally brown.. as of the 6 weeks near 100 degrees ... thats REAL F'en hot in Celsius ...

ken

It turns brown in summer... it is pining for the mountain fiords of the Rockies.

A trusted conifer person told me to avoid Chief Joseph because of the winter needle drop. I went against his advice this spring to watch it die in the miserable July weather. It's a matter of avoiding temptation now. When it's happy, it's a beautiful plant. Three tries had to be fustrating.

thanks for the condolences kathy.. but that was FOUR TRIES!!!!

[three, apparently.. was not enough ...]

have i mentioned .. I HATE IT ...

ken

Heya, Ken.
I'm not surprised, but I'm quite certain your plant is NOT dead. It simply burned in the winter because it was probably grafted onto Pinus sylvestris or some other incompatible rootstock rather than contorta.

I have one that is grafted onto contorta but it still burns to some degree (maybe not just established yet, since it's only a couple years old.) Either way, it still looks cool in December (bright, almost fluorescent gold) when it's "on the way out."

-Sam

Ken,

I bet the farm it's grafted on sylvestris under stock. I use to grow one that looked like that.

They all end up looking like yours if so.

It's not dead as new ends will flush out next year and die back like this years growth.

Buy the next one grafted to Pinus contorta under stock.

I know there is a guy from Coenosium Gardens that sells 'Chief Joseph' grafted to contorta under stock. That's where I got mine 4 years ago.

Dave

{{gwi:810791}}

Oh, Ken, four tries...eeks! You don't give up easily, do you? Went to Gee's last week (in the rain) and almost picked up one to try a fall planting. Glad I didn't. Next time I'm tempted, the mantra will be "Remember Ken's Four Tries - He Hates It". Probably doesn't help you when you're close enough to see Hidden Lake's Chief Joseph. The question now is what are you going to put in place of it?

Dead conifers do burn hot, fast and bright. I sense a ceremonial burn or sacrifice coming.

My experiences are similar to Jaro's. It holds needles well, sheds it's 3yr needles about this time each year. This is in Illinois full sun both summer and winter. Maybe it's an understock issue if gee/stanley/you used sylvestris or straight contorta? Mines from Coenosium Gardens where I think Bob uses CJ seedlings for understocks which might be the difference.

Still a tough loss, 4 tries, ouch.

The question now is what are you going to put in place of it?

What else should you get after a high end, unstable, inadvisable and sought after model? A family car conifer.

Go for #5 Ken!

Midwest Dave from IL...hmmm, if you can grow it then I should be able to...Coenosium, unfortunately, is sold out.

there.. i said it 4 times ..

{{gwi:810793}}

{{gwi:810795}}

Wow Ken, that's awful. I'll join Dave in suggesting that Coenosium Gardens place, I heard they are somewhat experienced!

We have such mild weather here I'd be shocked and saddened with the loss of one 'Chief Joseph', but to lose four, holy cow man, to quote you, it's CARP indeed.

-Will

Not better here.
Clement

In October I will get one from Edwin. I will try it, but what are the special conditions for this plant.
Is this plant very sensitive? Or what else? What soil is necessary?

Thanks

Wolfgang

Wolfgang,

Go with morning sun and keep it out of afternoon sun completely. Or, just a few hours of late afternoon sun, only.

Best advice I can offer which I essentially learned from Dave.

Dax

Wolfgang,

For what it's worth.

One good source told me that if you can shade this cultivar from winter sun does vastly better. Mine is planted on the north side of the house 15 ft.(4.57m ) out. This area receives no winter sun from November to late February. Never any burn or brown needles.

Dave

Thanks so much, Dave and Dax!

Wolfgang

yeah know.. hard core collectors.. of any type plant simply crack me ...

all one has to do.. is suggest it is near impossible to grow.. for a vast majority of peeps ...

and what do the hardcore do.. they put it at the top of their lists .. or run out and buy one ... BEEN THERE ... DONE THAT... too many times ... hosta especially ... lol ...

ken

Ken,

How many did you buy...I think 4. Pretty typical of a hard core collector. It's not so bad being one. In order to stay one you don't count your losses.

Quit buying them on sylvestris under stock and fess up. LOL

I wish you well on your next attempt.

Dave

Mine's still alive 14 days after buying it! Hopes are high now for 15.

I'm just glad Will is alive!

yeah, what Will said. Where ya been, Sparky?

I've been around. I have posted lately just haven't loaded many photos because I have been 'reminded'/warned' by GW forums about posting too many photos in the non-gallery section. I must have really overloaded their poor servers. The ironic thing is that I think the last warning came after someone else posted photos on a link we started months ago and I still got a message lol...

I myself have been busy, re-arranging, starting and finishing large new projects and moving plants around and into new places. Since September I have moved about 300 plants. I think Edwin and Henk are visiting the gardens here soon. Looking forward to meeting them both.

-Will

Glaciers-end...sparky slang only reserved for electricians. LOL. Fire fighter slang I don't know. Will what is it?

Will...Just post your photos. Maybe 3-4 at a time. Leave room for some comments then post 3-4 again in same thread. I think they get bent out of shape when people post 25+ at a time in one thread. That's just my guess.

Send use some photos of your new work. 300 moves..where to?

Any specific time for Edwin & Heck?

Dave

GW needs to realize that this forum would be dead without all the photos and the amount of photos that you put in is a plus to them since all the names are on them and that puts that link in the search engine under that plant name, so a link with lots of photo names would generate more hits than one that lists only one plant. They either want people to find it so they can make money on their ads or they don't.

Sounds like a great time for all of you to meet up also. Get lots of photos.
Cher

Damn FF you took someone else's bullet. When did you go from being often the primary resource in pictures/nursery reviews/growing experience/garden planning experience/reports from places of interest/humour to...

...the villain?

SMH

I was posting hundreds of photos though I did try and break them up over time and with comments. The warnings were telling me that any post with more then two photos would be moved into the gallery section. Then an entire thread was removed because it was reposted with new photos from someone else like months later. I don't care that much it just seems like the rules are selectively enforced. I just don't want to lose access to posting here.

Dave, my crew goes by 'Truckies' a lot, which is for the Heavy-Rescue detail we operate on a daily basis. I will certainly post some before/after photos once I finish up my work next Spring. Mostly thinning out areas that it's clear I'm going to have collisions in the next 2-3 years. I opened up three new areas to plant, a few of them quite extensive.(hint, the massive creeping juniper is gone).

Thanks for the support fellas/ladies.

-Will

Yes, why don't they ask our opinions first. Your input is one of the main pillars of this conifer-temple.
Continue the good work - much appreciated by all,I'm sure. T.

here's a picture of my chief in all his winter glory:

I find this to be a very enigmatic cultivar. Everybody wants one, yet so few of you can grow it. Yes; it's very fussy about how it's propagated and where it's living. Here in Washington it grows just fine.

however . . . .
small plants like mine and Will's look very nice, but I've had the unique displeasure of seeing older specimens and holy cow, do they get butt-ugly with age, especially in the late Fall as they're dropping needles.

As for my tree . . .
I fear that mine might be in its final years of looking good. Next year, as an experiment, I hope to start a little candle-pruning in hope of keeping it small and hopefully compact. Do any of you know if Pinus contorta responds favorably to such treatment?

To our Niederlaender friends. If you plan on tooling around Washington and Oregon, you certainly invited to visit Glacier's End. I'd really like to meet you guys.

~Dave

Dave - how tall is your Chief Joseph? It doesn't look to large at all to be pruning. But pictures can be misleading.

I agree with the size... I'm more favorable to the smaller sizes (5'-10') But with the amount of conifers some of the forum members have, I'm afraid they can't do to much about it. I know I wouldn't want to be out pruning every year to keep them in shape... maybe one or two in select locations.

For example... picea pungens 'hoopsii' I absolutely love the photos Ken Posts of his, so much in fact I purchased one myself (1' tall). But the very old ones aren't real attractive. I plan to just let mine grow and once one or two start to become ugly I'll chop it down and replace it with another.

I have seen large specimens of this cultivar with never any signs of physical change or color degrading into something undesirable. Of course all were on contorta under stock.

What is the bases for your fears that this chief is in its final years of looking good. I see nothing to indicate that even with the photo color enhanced.

This is a conifer that you don't want to candle prune. The bigger it gets the more desirable. Move it to a place where it can grow naturally and enjoy it for years to come.

Looks like a Bob Fincham cultivar. If it is it should be good to go. I know Wills is.

Dave

Hi Dave,

yes, my tree is a Bob Fincham production and it was in his garden that I saw one of the specimens that I'm afraid mine will turn into. It's very open, sparse of foliage and infested with sequoia moth. I realize I can't control the bugs, but I see a lot of mature lodgepole pines in these parts and let's just say they're not the perfect garden tree.

Hi Rick; the subject is around 4.5 feet tall. (~1.5m)

I realize that one of our frequent posters exclaims the virtues of loving a tree until it doesn't work for you any more, then give it a thorough pruning even with the ground, but I'd rather postone that inevitability for as long as possible.

~Dave

Pinus virginiana 'Wate's Golden' is a good alternative for the 'Chief Joseph'
{{gwi:810807}}

i was also thinking that the one he saw was wates .... mine totally lacks any form ...

pictured below w/o its winter color ... or the pic was taken in sub-prime sunlight causing it too look drab ... one thing for sure.. it seems to want to grow laterally more than vertically ..

i sent Will a note about a theory of mine.. i usually delete my pix when the posts hit page three.. meaning i never have that many pix floating around in GW .... and i have never gotten dunned by them ... and i speculated that perhaps his 4000 pix in GW might be a causing his GW trouble ... he seemed to agree ... i am pondering whether to contact GW and ask about it all ... but i havent figured it out yet ...

ken

{{gwi:810810}}

Ken, I love your Wates Golden. Such a beautiful artistic form.
John

i would like to take credit for it.. but its God's work ...

and robins for landing on the topmost tip and killing it every year.. which i guess is also God's work ...

thats some lateral at ground level isnt it

ken

i am wondering ...

was joys [whomevers] bud pruned for the xmas tree shape until it got too tall.. its leader is about as likely to grow straight up as my plant.. lol ...

while mine is taking on the more regular contorta form????

ken

Ken, my 'Wate's Golden' was never candle pruned but every year I'll cut off a lot of scions for propagation.
After doing this I'll cut it's shape in the way it grows now.
Also I cut it's leader back every other year which results that it will make several new one's instead.
It's a very easy winter yellow Pinus which don't mind at all that it will be pruned this way, certainly not when it's done in a nice and properly way...

It seems that your's is standing in much shade during Summer and because of this it's not as yellow as mine?

That's another one on my 'wish-list' Edwin!!! T.

Tunilla, I think it's a good idea to call the Laurains sisters and tell them that they will save some room for all your wanted plants ;0)

Hi Edwin. Yes I think I will do that ,but in any case,when I see one of your plants or others and I write here on the forum that I'd like to have one,you can take that as an order and put a label "sold" on it .So far I count six !
In fact,the only time when I get a chance to see a decent conifer display is at the Paris plant show,twice a year .There are the Laurains sisters, Ward Alpines (who carry a fair selection of conifers from Lime Cross Nursery in Britain, and also Vallonchene.
I have also obtained some fine plants from Clement in Belgium by mail.
Talking of wich (and in order not to deviate too far from the original post) I was wondering what the understock was on Clement's 'Chief Joseph'. What a shame to see a fair sized plant like that go down the drain! T.

Tunilla, unfortunately I didn't wrote your wanted one's down.
Please can you tell me which 6 plants these are and I'll reserve these for you.

I still remember:
-Chamaecyparis laws. 'Filip's Golden Tears'
-Picea pungens 'Super Better Blue'
-Pinus virginiana 'Wate's Golden'

Thanks, Edwin. The other two are Pinus sylvestris 'Hillside Creeper' and 'Albyns' (if you have them!)
Still wondering what the 'Chief Joseph' understock might have been on Clement's plant. Mine is on sylvestris and doing fine (knock on (pine)wood!) T.

Ken, I absolutely love the open, sparse, airy form of your Pinus virginiana 'Wate's Golden'. I bet seeing the wonderful, bright coloring in the winter one an open plant like that would be so gorgeous. Very nice!

Tunilla, I only have the 'Albyns' availlable, so totaly 4 differend plants to reserve for you.
Did you contact the Laurains sisters in the meanwhile?

Scrub pine is such a perfect common name for this plant.

A nursery had a few nice ones this spring but they were so dang pot bound...typical of those jokers at Monrovia. They waste so many plants its not even funny.

All three where still there at the end of the year begging to be purchased at 50% off.

The gold color was still pretty intense in late March when they got them.