Thanks...

Just out of curiosity.... what qualifies as a "heat wave" in your part of N. America ?
Here in Montreal we hit about 92F (33C) today, which is about as hot as its going to get this summer.
Should I be worried about my plants ?
Mercifully, a strong T-storm just passed over us this evening, cooling things down considerably -- while at the same time watering the garden. Good stuff !

70F w/ 25% humidity here. Har-har. :)

Hey Dave, how do you "protect from sun"? Golf umbrella on a ladder? Remember, I'm the one with all the new Hemlocks and Colorado Spruces. Ice on the roots seem to be helping from 12:00 to 2:00 which is when the shade comes around. I'm not worried about the spruces only the hemlocks. They look o.k. so far with a few (but not all) tips dying back. Thanks, Kenda

WATER! (The heat index here for I guess a couple weeks has been 100+ daily. 110 two days ago, etc. - new plants need water each day with these extremes).

Dax

For you FMT sells A 40-60% netting. 40% filtered sunlight is all the plant gets. I am currently protecting a Picea orientalis 'Skylands' this way till it acclimates. Ice is good. Anything to cool down. Go for the netting.

Dave

Rain all day and 13°C max today . . .

Resin

70 and sunny with a north breeze right now. 2" of rain overnight. Sweet relief.

One Larix, planted about 8 weeks ago, bit the dust. It's companion looks fine though.

Nothing looks more beautiful in hot weather than a mature eastern white pine, in my opinion. Supposedly forested areas with a high concentration of white pines take on a smoky haze in very hot weather due to volatization of chemicals present in the pines. Apparently it's how the Great Smokies got their name. Can anyone from these regions report on the smoky haze index there?

I just spent two weeks on Kodiak Island, its useually in the high 70's or low 80's there this time of year, it was in the 50's this time, the south is stealing all of our hot air!

Ah, let me take this opportunity to make a pitch for Norway spruce, one of my most favorite trees:

In 1988 we had a terrible drought and heat wave, even on the normally wet and cool Allegheny Plateau in Western MD, elevation 2,700'. From June 1 to August 27(if I remember the exact date), we had one rain of 1 inch, and another of .2 inches for a grand total of 1.2 inches in almost two months. In this area we seldom top 90 degrees, and except for this summer I have never seen it at my place. On one day during that spell we had a very strong wind and 94 degrees. By the end of that day some trees, including especially sugar maples had their leaves dry up while still on the trees so they were crisp and crumbled in your hand while remaining green. I call that day the day of "the hot wind from hell." That summer I lost a number of trees of various species, including some sugar maple, and even some white and red pine. At the end of the year the only trees I had that seemed completely unaffected were my Norway spruce. We had a follow up hot drought year in 1989, and the Norway spruce showed no reduced growth. And not any reduced growth as an after-effect the next year, which by chance was wetter and cooler than normal.

Well, I just like to promote Norway spruce, which in some quarters has not always been fully appreciated.

--Spruce

heat was in the 100+ range for the past two days. Been waterng like mad. One good thing for this area has been periods of rain lasting a week or two, then very hot weather, then back again. Our garden has never looked better. Aside from the loss of a few 1st/2nd year potted grafts, all else is doing fine and dandy.

Spruceman, you do a good job promoting the Norway Spruce. I would have never had guessed you liked spruces. You have my vote. A great conifer that never gives me any issues.
Finally got a break in the heat wave. In the 70's with a inch of rain last night. More high temps comming back this weekend. No long term relief in sight. Get out the water hose again. I even hate to think what my water bill will be.

Dave

Water bill wil certainly be less than the cost of replacing burnt trees.

Spruceman - was there a pun in that "pitch" for Norway Spruce. I would agree it is a tough tree, but there are experts in the American Forestry Association who don't agree. As an individual specimen it is very impressive. Not being a native though, it can't have the collective effect that say white pine does. I love Norway Spruce plantations for cross country sking through, but as plantations they lack the naturalistic appearance. I have seen some old small town cemeteries though that do achieve a natural grove type of appearance because of their scattered plantings.

I'm doing my part for the species though by convincing a neighbor not to cut his down. While he sees hanging boughs scraping his shingles and needles clogging his rainpipe, I see this evergreen crown towering over his roof and standing up to the icy blasts of winter while I contemplate it from my easy chair with a hot beverage.

Though you could argue for it as a replacement for Picea critchfieldii

Resin

Here is a link that might be useful: Picea critchfieldii (pdf file)

Dave:

I am sorry you are way out in KS--if you were near by Western MD and adjacent WV I could give you directions to some nice Norway spruce forest plantings. I love Norway spruce and admire its adaptability, but Kansas is not one place I would expect to see it at its best.

NS plantations that are just planted and left to grow take a special eye to appreciate--the lower branches don't prune well naturally for a very long time, and the less vigorous trees are overtopped and die and do not make a pretty picture. I have thinned and pruned my forest plantings for years, and as much as I enjoy forests of all types, including white pine, I will match up a well cared for Norway spruce plantation with anything for beauty, even CA redwoods. My plantings have a rather wide genetic diversity, meaning that the trees have foliage that sometimes droops more or less, sometimes is very dense and dark, sometimes more "feathery" in appearance, etc. etc. This adds a lot to the beauty and interest. My trees are only about 80 feet tall, growing about 28 inches a year, but in two other groves not too far away, they are much, much taller--perhaps over 140 or 150 feet.

One "grove" if I can call it that, is popularly known as the "Rothkugel" (I am not sure at this moment of the spelling) and is in WV. This planting was initiated by one of Gifford Pinchot's (the father of American forestry) close associates. They were planted in 1907 (the earliest forest planting of NS I know of), and they stand head and shoulders above the rest of the mostly hardwood stand they occupy--really something to see. But these trees, as best as I can evaluate their growth potential compared to other strains I have seen, are not among the best. I wonder what this stand would look like if it were composed of the strain of trees that are in the grove near Glady, WV, which was planted about 30 years later and may be almost as tall.

Well, more about NS later when I get some other excuse to bring up the subject again!

--Spruce

Hi Spruce,

How d'you like these, then?

{{gwi:672219}}
Picea sitchensis plantation in northeast England, trees 53m tall

Resin

Ah, Resin, Resin, Resin!

Yes, Picea sitchensis! Yes. If you are ever here is the old US, and can get to the state of Washington, and then to the Olympic National Park, go to the trailhead area of the Hoh Rain Forest, take the little nature trail there that goes through what may be one of the most spectacular stands of Sitka spruce still standing. Over 90 meeters tall (about 300 feet). Lord almighty!

Some of our western conifers do spectacularly well in the UK. About 25 years ago my wife and I visited the Benmore (sp?) arboretum. I love the avenue of giant sequoias, among other plantings.

I remember seeing lots and lots of young spruce plantations in our time driving around. Some of these must be really grown up by now after about 26 years. We would love to come back for another visit!

One of my favorite Sitka spruce experiences was the time my wife and I were hiking in the Prairie creek Redwoods State Park on the "Damnation Creek Trail" which went down from the ridge to the ocean. There had been a terrific storm that winter and a gigantic Sitka spruce tree had crashed down, obliterating the trail. My wife was afraid, but I finally helped her up onto this great tree and she gingerly slid down the steeply sloping trunk so we could regain the trail. She was so proud of herself and her courage. When we got down to the beach there was a bunch of little 6 and 7 year old kids who had made the same trip down the trunk of that tree. She didn't feel so proud after that. Funny!

--Spruce

Hey Spruceman, Kansas is not so bad. It's a place where the deer and the antelope play, where seldom is heard a discouraging word and the skies are not cloudy all day.
You got me beat on growing the big plantation, big forest varieties of spruce. Pine plantations are grown in abundance for Christmas tree sale purposes.
As for the spruces they are confined to gardens. I am growing over 20 trouble free varieties. Here's one to knock your socks off.

{{gwi:793125}}



Dave

Dave

Going to be very similar to the named Picea abies 'Pendula AA Form' (Picea abies f. pendula) at Hidden Lake Gardens. Called something like "the angel overlooking the garden". (Looks to me more like Chewbacka(from Star Wars) - at least from this angle.

Dax

That pendula AA form looks a little spooky, kind of like a green Bigfoot.

Thinking more about heat waves, in different seasons I tend to think of imagery and tree species that are an antedote to the extremes I am experiencing. In the case of conifer species, in summer heat waves contemplating firs and spruces conjures refreshing images. Part of it may be the far northern connotations of these species, as well as my personal experiences, but I think it also has to do with how happy these species are in the different seasons.

In hard winters pines around here tend to experience some browning of needles. In that context I think of how billowy and free (as opposed to stiff and dry) they look on a sunny summer day, scattering the light, caressed by the summer zephyrs. That image lifts me in the doldrums of winter.

In contrast a species like Norway Spruce tends to hold up well over a hard winter, so during a summer heat wave I think of it's full drooping branches, how happy they look with a fringe of snow. I think of brisk refreshing winter walks among their towering boles. Of gliding on perfect quality snow, carving turns, and listening to the music of the wind in their boughs. Waiting for the ruddy red sunsets and the sounds of hooting owls. Cold, pure, deserted and insect free. Winter can be a great time of year, and every season has it's tree standouts. The exception I think is spring - when the conifers put out their new growth, when the profound contrast shows in every bud between new and old green, I think every conifer is a star then.

Dave: OK, OK, my socks are off--does this tree by any chance have a species and a cultivar name?

Dax: Love the picture. I wonder what this tree will look like in 20 or 30 more years, etc. I bet it will keep changing.

Bhrost: Your word picture is transporting me to December already. Do you write poetry??

--Spruce

The spruce I posted is called Picea abies 'Reflexa'. Sold in most nurserys as Picea a. 'Pendula'.

Spruce : Thanks for the kind words. I'm not a poet but the internet is a place where I can practice writing skills. It's relaxing like painting.

About 10 years ago I went on a tree tour of Johnson County, KS put on by the city forester of Olathe, KS(Rick Spurgeon) and we visited a very large Norway Spruce in I think Mission, KS or perhaps in adjacent Prairie Village, KS. It was quite impressive and the lawn it was growing in was littered with seedling Norway Spruce all over. So, it can grow well way out here in Kansas(although not as well out in spruceman's area) and even reproduces! It's the only confier besides Junipers and a once in a million Austrian Pine seedling that I've seen reproducing in Eastern KS. Colorado Spruce and Eastern White Pine don't even seem to reproduce here despite growing quite well, although I don't ever come across any of the closer native growing Pines in cultivation here(like Pinus echinata or Pinus ponderosa var. scopulorum) to see if they will reproduce here.

Also, it looks like the heat wave in Eastern KS might be broken with highs back down to the normal low 90's, instead of low 100's(highest temp at my place was 106F and highest head index was 118F) or upper 90's we've seen off and on (mostly on) since the beginning of July. Then again the weather forecasters predicted the end of the heat wave a couple of times before and it didn't happen. I still wonder how Norway Spruce seems so well adapted to the heat and drought we get out here. I suppose it must be native quite far South into Europe and that's where the ones in cultivation here originate?

Kman04:

Thanks very much for your report about the Norway spruce tree--I have long been amazed by the adaptability of this tree, and your report adds more to my state of amazement. A while back I posted a topic called something like "Norway spruce--problems" in which I discussed the importance of seed source--the very wide geographic range in which NS is native and how many poor specimins are the result of people bringing back seed from high Alpine sources and planting them in NJ or somewhere.

Yes, by chance, or perhaps by design, the tree you have there is probably from a more southern and perhaps also eastern European site.

The seedlings especially interest me. Are there any other NS near by? Generally NS needs to be cross pollinated to produce vigorous seedlings, although some seedlings may do fine without the cross pollination. I think it would be worthwhile to collect and grow some of these. The interest in tree improvement programs seems to be waning, but I think it is worthwhile to note special trees and propagate from them.

The fact that this tree is producing seedlings in KS seems remarkable to me. I almost never see them in VA or the warmer parts of MD, although reproduction here on the Allegheny Plateau is very good, although not rampant.

I did a search of the KS champion trees program and did not find any NS listed. Perhaps you could report this tree--you can find this easily by searching KS champion trees and there will be a reference to someone you can call and talk to about adding this tree to their list.

--Spruce

I just re-did my search of KZ champion trees and found they have two NS listed--not very big by the standards of what is big here, but they are not runts either. They are both something over 12 feet in circumference and about 70 feet tall. The problem with the formula used for determining the size of trees is the disproportionate emphasis on circumference as opposed to height, so the champion trees are almost never the tallest. To me, the main thing about a tree is how tall it is, not how thick or how much it spreads, but then I guess this is not something that can ever be truly objective--it is a matter of taste, and it is pointless to argue with the "taste" of those who decided on this formula.

--Spruce

Spruce. I live about 10 minutes from that area kman04 is talking about. I'll see if I can get an address from him. If I can I will ask the owner if I can shoot a photo and post for you.

Dave

Dave:

That would be great. I am embarassed that I have not got myself up to speed digitally with pictures--I keep telling myself I will get to it and I have not. When I do I will post some of my collection of NS pictures, which just may "knock some socks off." One of my favorites is that tree I mentioned in a previous topic--the tree in Upper Marlboro, MD, where it can be so hot and dry. The lower third is a solid mass of cascading foliage, the next third or so is made up of sweeping branches with some space between with marvelous weeping foliage, and the top part is very picturesquely (is that a word?) open with shorter weeping foliage on each branch. Well, I shouldn't tease you with this description and no photo--sorry. But I do fancy myself as some kind of verbal descriptive genius! lol.

--Spruce

I think your best bet at finding that tree again is to contact the city arborist of Olathe, KS and his name is Rick Spurgeon. I don't recall exactly where that tree was, and I don't have contact info for Rick, but I think you can get it if you call the city of Olathe Parks department at 913-971-6038. Since the city's website is so obtuse and un-user friendly I couldn't find any contact info for Rick or the city's Parks department, so no email adress. Also, if I recall correctly, this tree was taller than the current co-champion NS's in KS, but it's trunk was much less in diameter. I also recall at least 1 other NS in the immediate area, but it was only about 2/3 the size of this one. I'm sorry I don't remember any more specifics about this tree, but I may have some old photos of it and maybe even of the seedlings. If I do, they're probably deeply stashed away somewhere, but I'll look.

Nearly a year passed since Dave started this thread. We are going through a similar rough time in parts of the east coast - no rain in weeks, hot, strong steady (hot) winds out of the south for weeks.

I wondered how things turned out after last year's heat wave, if your trees survived. Although I'm watering often and deep, I'm afraid I'm losing the battle.

I planted dozens of trees in April and early May - dawn redwoods, bald cypresses, deodar cedars, Japanese black pines, ginkgos, white and Shumard oaks, red maples, tulip trees, redbuds, dogwood, the list goes on.

A few days ago, the needles on one bald cypress turned brown over night. Needles on the windward side of the dawn redwoods are orange. Leaves on the oaks, tulip trees dried up and crumble like burned paper. The deodar cedar looks okay but it is planted about 500 feet from the shore and is protected from the wind.

Most damage is caused by the wind and lack of rain. I will continue to water.

What are the odds that these trees will survive? Is there anything else I can do?

Pam

Pam, I run sprinklers all night, the old-fashioned kind on hoses that I move by hand. The hoses are on timers I set each night at 9/p -- when the sun goes down enough to start running sprinklers. During the day I wear a sun hat and protect skin and water tree wells by hose. Over 300 trees, just move from tree to tree filling wells. They say after 3 years the tree roots get established and won't need this intense boost to survival so I've committed myself to the yard full-time for 3 years. I'm praying everything "takes" quickly, spreads and digs deep into the earth to sustain itself.

I can't use sprinklers by day because water plus sun burns the leaves.

The trees seem to greatly appreciate being sprinklered at night and that keeps the spider mites at bay. But all the roots need lots of supplemental water that sprinkling doesn't do.

New plantings may be in trouble. All established deciduous plants and conifers will survive. In drought plants will cut back to a survival stage they can cope with. Dropping leaves is an example. The key to your success in saving your plants is to water water water. You can purchase a Ross Root feeder to deep water you plants. No chemicals are needed just put water through it.

Can't do much about the wind. Filtered netting may help in protecting that special plant from wind damage. I have tried it several times with moderate success.

I don't even want to tell you what my water bill was last year. It nearly broke the bank but all my plants survived. Bottom Line.

Dave

"I can't use sprinklers by day because water plus sun burns the leaves"

Not true. If it was, plants would burn every time a shower is followed by sun. They don't!

Watering during the day has a downside (water wastage through evaporation) but can also help trees by evaporative cooling in the heat of the day when stress is at its greatest.

Resin

Dave:

Thanks for the update - it is encouraging and a relief. I was concerned about the loss of leaves so early in the season. When a hurricane or TS comes through, it strips the leaves from trees but this happens later in the season. I used to worry but the trees come back, often stronger than before.

In September, a tropical storm hit and stripped the leaves off the persimmons that grow in beach sand, added more than a foot of sand around the trunks - and turned the fruit ripe. The orange fruit hung on the leafless tree like Christmas balls. I took this photo the next day;

That persimmon has grown at least 2 feet since the storm.

Re: water bills. Thankfully, I have a crock well for watering. We built a rainwater catchment system for the house - water quality is excellent and the water is free.

I found the device you recommended. My husband invents new things and improves old things. He may be able to make a similar device that will do the trick.

Thanks for the progress report and advice. You had a rough time last year but if all your trees survived, all is well.

Pam

Resin, of course what you're saying is logical but the sun here defies logic. The sun has become so intensely hot that it indeed burns any wet leaf when there's no clouds and it's hot -- a condition way more common now than in years before. I've been super careful and already have scalding burns on rhody leaves and some magnolias. Tap water from sprinklers may be more prone to burn leaves here. I cringe when it rains and the sun comes out if it's a hot sunny episode!

Would love to run sprinklers in daytime in summer, but that would instantly defoliate my yard. Instead I have to completely run my life by darkness, sleeping in the afternoon and watering all night to save my trees.

Perhaps because these are new trees with new growth leaves are so tender. After 3 years, the magical establishment timeline, hopefully everything will be tougher and able to handle the sun. But I'm seeing a lot of big old mature trees wilting and dying out there as I look out the car window, shrivelled by the sun.