Both are splendid but I like 'Pendula Bruns' more because it has more character, cones and more interesting color.

Really can't go wrong with either, both are All-Stars.

-Will

Indeed, both are beauties, but I like the true 'Pendula' more the the 'Pendula Bruns' because of is more upright twisted growing habit and this in combination with it's straight hanging side branches.
Wow, this is such a sensational conifer at a later age but it needs some room.
The 'Pendula Bruns' does have a slender upright growing habit with straight hanging side branches which is very useful for a more compact space in the garden.
The needle colour of both is the same...

I have seen both of them. I look at them every day.

Both are wonderful cultivars. The Picea glauca 'Pendula' is more formal and will grow up straight as an arrow.

The Picea omorika 'Pendula Bruns' is unstable and will do a little wandering on its upward journey. Each one is different and does its own thing.

Another one to consider is Picea pungens 'Glauca Pendula'. It will provide some good color contrast along with that layered look you like. It can be some what unstable but easily controlled.

Of course all will need a good 6-8 hours of sun to preform well.

Whatever you choose let us know and post a photo.

Dave

Picea glauca looks more interesting when its pushing new growth. Picea omorika looks more interesting season long.

Picea glauca is much more susceptible to spider mites.

Thanks guys, I'm definitely leaning towards Picea glauca 'pendula' for the time being. Only because 'pendula bruns' is a little smaller and I can incorporate that in another bed later on. This space is a little larger than what I had thought. It can easily grow to be 10' before it touches anything in that area. How wide can this actually get?

The bed is 50x50 and will include the following:
Picea Glauca 'Pendula'??
Picea pungens 'Hoopsii'
Picea pungens 'Procumbans' (Groundcover)
Picea abies 'Gold Drift'
Pinus Contorta 'Taylors Sunburst'
Abies Koreana 'Silver Show'
Pinus Strobus 'Torulosa'
Pinus Densiflora 'Glitzer Weeping' (GroundCover)
Acer Palmatum 'Orange Dream'
Acer Palmatum 'Bi Hou'

'Pendula' will probably be on the bottom right corner of this bed on the curve.
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If you have room for it to spread 10 feet, I'd consider Picea engelmannii 'Bush's Lace'.

tj

Looks like he has the room.

Good choice tj.

Dave

I can hardly wait to see your transformation. It's going to be supa killa! ;)

Dax

Hey Rick,

Have you considered giving your beds more shape? For example jetting out in certain areas to hightlight various specimans?

Be carefull with those JMs in that exposed area. Avoid winter wind and sun.

Thanks guys, I just placed the order for Picea glauca 'Pendula' along with a few others. With these fall orders, I'll be pushing at number 100 very easily! Wow... at the beginning of the year I said I was only going to plant around 10 a year. Now it's been 4 months and 100 plants later =)

Whaas - I really wanted to give this bed a little more shape, but it didn't flow to well with some of the other future beds around it. My largest bed in the middle of the yard will actually has a couple curves. The bed behind me in that pic will also be curvy. I'm kind of combining Wills pathway idea with Kens mowing suggestion. When all done I hope to have a lot of 9' wide grassy paths along with a few open grassy areas for the kids to play.

Is winter and sun that hard on JM's? I have a small forest on the west of my property and a small forest to the north of the property that could block a lot of it. It does get pretty windy in the winter, but I don't know what's the norm around here.

Hi Rick,

Just be sure to mulch the Japanese maples and keep them pretty moist, especially during the summer. If you see leaves burning, just stay on the path of extra water and eventually they'll become established and less burn is likely.

Japanese maples aren't perfect in the Mid-west U.S. with our intense sun. When well-established though, they will look real nice. But, even during severe droughts and hot temperatures, old trees will need supplemental water.

This should help you understand how to better care for them.

Dax

Couple ideas that might help...just finished this up around the deck.

I'll intermix various dwarf conifers, then likley work in Clethra, Hydrangea and Fothergilla.

Curves are designed to accommodate a walk mower so you likely can't get them that tight with a rider.

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Very nice... I really like how the curved concrete works well with the curves in the bed! It just looks perfect!

Right now I have a 75' x 15' bed across the back of my house with no curves. It makes mowing real simple. Last year I had curves on the back of my house and I had to get the push mower out to do all the trim. I think last year I spent a good 2 hours each time I had to mow... this year I'm down to about an hour and 20 minutes because I took all the curves out of the bed plus put in a lot of very large beds.

The two future large beds next year will definitely have curves, but they will be a little less 'wavy' I guess I could call it lol. Something less intense that I could easily trim with the riding mower.

It sounds like mowing is your priority and your design is based around how long it take you to mow.

As it now stands you are going to plant many expensive conifers into a football field like setting or narrow parking lot with dirt on it. I can't possibly think how a 75x15 wide rectangle can be transformed into anything aesthetically acceptable.

Sit down and draw a scale drawing and give your design some character. Divide it into 3 islands that will flow and bounce off each other. With the addition of later beds with curves this one will not fit in if not changed.

Why did you remove the photo?

Dave

Although quite blunt, Dave is on the money. You (as I, lol) have alot of potential based on our interest in utilizing conifers in the garden.

These are thin temporary beds until I obtain more plants but may give you some ideas as to how you can separate beds to create more interest. That stretch is about 90' to give some perspective.

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I wouldn't call it a square parking lot, I thought you saw that thread about a month ago? The 75' x 15' bed is attached to the back of my house with paver pathways. This is where mostly my mini conifers will be kept. If you take a look at the original thread below, you'll see the beds along with a complete design.

Smaller curvy beds are ok and look great if you have a smaller yard and can push mow. My backyard is about 1.5 acres and could turn in to be a lot more depending on how far back in my yard I take my design. Plus I don't have any pavers or edging to keep my mulch back, I use roundup around the edges. The smaller the beds, the more curves, will equal a greater amount of 'bed edging' upkeep. My second largest bed was 3 smaller beds with tighter curves. After I had the mulch down, it rained a few times and I TRIED to mow with the riding mower, the bed lost it's shape. So I redesigned my entire plan (per the attached link) and took a weekend to reshape that bed into one large semi curved bed.

So my new plan included the arbor as the garden entryway leading down a 10' wide curved path around my entire backyard. Very simple design, I do have one bed that is square, but that square bed plays a huge roll in the entire curved garden pathway idea. If I made the 75x15 bed curvey, it would completely toss off the entire design scheme. =)

- I'm not sure what happened to that picture, maybe my host is down or I exceeded my bandwidth?

I must ask, why the change of heart now guys when in my original thread everyone seemed to like my idea? Larger yards require larger beds. A small yard wouldn't look best with 1 large bed. Likewise a large yard wouldn't look good with 100 small beds. =)

Here is a link that might be useful: http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/conif/msg071519189017.html

Rick,

Sorry if I was so blunt. You have a nice lay of land most of us can only dream of owning.

My only concern was looking down at your drawing it didn't appear to have good balance and flow. One area of concern was the dog bone bed. The other was the kidney bed. The kidney bed should play off the back bed but not to the point of making it the next piece of the puzzle to fit in.

The dog bone island on the right needs to be brought around in s sweeping arch and them blended back in. Your circles are to tight and pinched off. Don't use the corner of the house or patio as a starting place to add a new bed. Incorporate that corner in a sweeping ark large enough to put a focal point conifer there. Avoid straight lines in your design. You don't want to see what's down the highway, only what's just around the corner.

Don't take my comments wrong. I am only trying to offer help in a constructive way.

One other point. Forget about the mowing issues and concentrate on the garden lay out. We are only talking about grass and nobody cares about how hard it was to mow or how long it took. Once you get this garden up and running you won't care either.

If still not convinced. Take a look at Foxhollow-New Bed!

Done right. No straight lines, arching corners, and good flow. Stephen know how to put it together.

Good luck,

Dave

That's alright, I can use all the feedback I can get =) I do have some stuff that I would change if I can go back, but I've already done so much.

All the beds are already semi made except for the bed on the far right of the photo. This was just something I tossed in to fill up the paper, I won't put this bed in place for another 2-3 years. A large focal point confier will be in the "circle". Is this the dog bone bed you're talking about?

Some of the beds aren't exact how they are in the yard. I did the best I can in the picture shading the beds(I had to take some beds in and others out). It still isn't exact, but you'll get the point. I've made some notes to where the spetic lines run (I won't plant around these. If a 10' conifer falls over and the roots are wrapped around the lines, I could be in trouble).

I've also made note that the 'kidney' shaped bed is actually over and down on the picture. It also has a 10' path between it and the bed on the back of the house.

I've also labled in the back where the brush and woods are. I will leave the woods untouched. The high brush will eventually be shaved down and more beds added if I run out of room in the backyard.

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ricksample I think everything looks great. One of the things I learned is to do things the way "I" like and ease of mowing. It's extremely difficult for me to mow and instead of corners, I have diagonals on everything. Much easier for me to maintain a flow without going into corners and doing hard turns. Also I have gardens to enjoy, not spending huge amounts of time just mowing. Curves look nice, but for me personally, I like more formal straight lines and think it's even nicer. Design for YOU and whatever reason you are doing the design, whether it's for a more formal look or ease of mowing. There is no rule on curves or straight lines, except the rule to do as you like.
Cher

Why would you design anything based around ease of mowing.

You severely limit your design with few avenues to pursue to get it right.

Stay away from formal straight lines unless you are going the English formal garden route. Your design is informal as most conifer gardens should be. No Boxwood's, ladders or hedge clippers here. Diagonal lines how does that fit in...show me.

Garden Design Basics I go by. They all speak for themselves. I did expound on the Rhythm part as not to confound anybody.

What follows is a list of design principles that are common to garden design. Don't let them intimidate you. Just use them as tools to help you see. Not rocket science.

Style.

Flow.

Scale.

Rhythm. By repeating plants and materials, you can produce a sense of rhythm, order, and predictability. Too much repetition is monotonous. But don't be a slave to repetition. The best gardens always leave room for the unexpected. Your decision to make.

Symmetry and balance.

Now go do your garden your way as suggested above. Keep in mind the basic design principals listed above. Send some photos as it develops.

Dave

Thanks Cher, I definitely agree. The garden should be designed based on what inspires you and how you like everything placed. There will always be a 'better' designed garden. It's nice to have a little feedback and push in the correct dirction though. I'm still keeping the curves to a minimal... I think it would be pretty impossible to push mow around each bed if you have a large scale project.

I have a somewhat new design that I'm pretty excited about. I was never thrilled about putting the pool directly in the middle of my design. Depending on our townships regulations, I moved the pool off the the far right (40' from the property line.)

Around the pool will be a a black fence. Around the fence will be a nice conifer and flower collection. To enter the pool area, you'll pass under the black metal arbor with gate. Once the plants grow tall, it'll be like a room of it's own.

Moving the pool out of the middle of my yard will give me room to place more beds. These beds will have curves that my riding mower can handle plus allow me to add a few focal points.

I'm not going to worry to much about these 2 new beds... It'll be a good 5-6 years before I get the other beds fully created and filled in. But I think this is a step in the right direction. All the paths between the beds will still be kept 10'. Just incase you're wondering why an even 10' instead of variable... if someday I get all 3.5 acres landscaped, I would like to purchase a golf cart or something so I can ride down the paths and have a different view of the yard each day. These beds aren't exactly how I will end up doing them, just a very quick 5 minute scetch.

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So glad you got rid of that circle lol. Just keep pushing yourself. You'll go through many iterations including interations while your laying it out. It will always look different on paper than in actuality.

This was probably my tenth revision to my plan and it ended up being way different. You can never go through too many versions.

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After I get the shapes of my beds down I'm going to start using containers to lay everything out.

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Looks great whass

I usually use rope to outline where my plants go. Only because I place them depending on how large they will be xx years down the road so I can avoid them running into each other in 5, 10, 20, etc years depending on the growth rate. Then I plant the smaller conifers/flowers in between that can be removed later on if one of them gets to large...

I have a computer version of my plan almost like what you have. It has the exact deminsions of the land, beds, etc. It just takes a lot of time to update it. I'm so busy in the summer that I can only update it in the winter.

Here is one more revision I've been working on today. I'm going to lay the rope on the ground when I get home to see just how it looks. I added the bed completely around fence/pool that will end at the neighbors property behind it and at the small section of woods. Then I split the round bed on the right of the house into 2 so I can highlight Picea abies 'Gold Drift', Picea pungens 'Hoopsii', Picea glauca 'Pendula'. The pool bed will kind of wrap around this bed creating another grassy pathway. Then on the other side I created a curve to corner in the hottub for privacy from the front street.

The other beds I'm not to worried about at the moment as I'm sure they will change. The bed I just split into 2 will be my fall 2011/spring 2012 project.

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Getting more interesting! Ecspecially like the middle beds, gives you more oppurtunity to mix it up and not get caught in the repetition/soldier game.

Might have to tool around with the lower bed to the right. Looks like a sandwich, lol.

You can still have them flow together just don't want a concave version of the convex version fitting together.

On your kidney bean and dogbone...what if you make one of either end larger than the other end?

ricksample, I'll throw this into the mix for your consideration. Same amount of islands just a different take on flow.

I kept your kidney bean and dog bone because I felt they were attached to your hip and something not open for change.

When you lay out your islands regardless of of which design you use a scale drawing will give you reference points to work from. Use a garden hose to lay out your islands. Easy to move to make adjustments here and there for that perfect look you are after.

Take your time and then go for it when satisfied.

Dave

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I spent about 3 hours out there tonight fixing the 'sandwich' bed into something a little more interesting. I laid that out and I wasn't really feeling a good flow to it. I tried about 10 different layouts until I found something that I think looks pretty good. It has a lot more curves, so I'll do the best I can to draw another pic tomorrow.

Dave - That actually doesn't look to bad. Unfortunately I tried that and the shapes don't fit together. The two beds I already have are at a different angle. The bed you have in the middle would actually have to be flipped. The largest part of the grass is at the inner part of the bed to the left.

I'm only fixed on the kidney bed. By all means, that long bed can be moved or reshaped. The Green giant and Kidney bed are already fully created. I have about 20 yards of mulch and 5 tons of gravel, these beds can't be moved or reshaped since they are right next to one another.

Originally I was going to create that long bed on top of your picture fall 2011/2012, but I have decided to push that back and do the bed hooked to the arbor instead. So if I don't keep that shape, I can easily let the 'roundup line' fill back up with grass and have a blank slate. I think it'll be tough to figure out a design that flows well with the kidney bed though. I put that long bed in to flow with the angle of the septic and in between the pool. Now since I moved the pool, it no longer has to flow with the septic and can go into the yard. Thoughts?

Your caught up in a vicious circle. Been there and done that.

After so many attempts with various designs it can become a real challenge to find something that will work. Soon gridlock sets in ...then it's time to back away.

Draw another plan and include only the existing beds you have already developed.

Then post it. There are plenty of intuitive minds on this forum that can get you through it.

Actually I traced that design over your design posted Aug. 8th. The dog bone & kidney were not moved just reshaped. The inside islands were drawn to fit within the confines of big dog and kidney bean. Should work with a little tweak here and there.

Dave

I didn't think it would become this yard to develop beds, looks like I'm overthinking it. Not to mention the septic system and lines running through my backyard make it more difficult to design around it. I was told not to plant anything closer than 50 to the septic. Then I had the pool in the back yard which left me with a 25' wide space (hence the dog bone bed)

I have deleted it for the moment from that drawing. I have also redesigned the 'sandwich' bed. The outter part of the new bed will have a 10' path, the inner part will have a 4' path which will be a little larger, closer to 5' at the bend.

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This is probably my 20th revision today... I really like it! I haven't put the rope on the ground to see if it'll work in yet, but I will this weekend.

After much anticipation, I looked at landscaping designs online and most of them feature some kind of a grassy play area that has a nice curvey flow. So I put where I wanted the grassy area to be and made the beds flow with the shape of that... much easier than designing the beds and trying to incorporate a grass area! I need to leave our future kids a little room to play =)

I have also completely cornered the hot tub area in so it's much more secluded. I'll add a little pavered pathway for access to the front yard.

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Is that grass intertwining between those beds in the middle?...that willl be a son of gun to mow.

Dave's iteration is my favorite so far. In this case you're mowing in a circle within.

I'm not to sure, after I get each bed laid out with rope, I'll take my riding mower along to make sure each turn isn't to sharp. I can take the inner part of the kidney bed just fine with my mower and that's a pretty sharp turn.

Like I said before, I won't design it so I have to push mow the entire back yard. I actually like mowing, so I don't want to make it something that I hate doing. I will have to push the lawnmower down the arbor path and that small 4' path connecting to the arbor path. Only because my riding mower cant fit between the arbor and around the well pump and other stuff I have right there. Not a huge deal though.

Dave's idea is great, except that circle in the middle bed he created would be around an 80' diameter and it would come up to my back deck. It comes down nearly even with my kidney bean bed. Between the kidney bed and the rear mulch bed as you see in my drawing, I have a 10' gap. So I'll walk out my back deck and have a 10' green space. My design allows me for a 25-30' green space which is pretty important.

You'll get it eventually. Good news is that now you're thinking outside the box.

Can't you take the suggested shapes and just shrink them?

ricksample, a few more thoughts and then I will give this one to you to figure out.

When you are trying to do a complex landscape design, you are, you need a scale drawing. 1/8 or 1/4 to a foot is the norm. With that accomplished you can look down at your drawing at a finished product. You then can go lay it out with a tape measure using prescribed marker or reference points.

Using a rope thrown on the ground trying to make something work is not feasible. Getting one island right will lead to frustration when the next island lay out will not fit. Thus the need for a detained drawing to work off.

The drawing I gave you is not to scale. With some parameters to work off of it will work. I did detailed electrical lay out out work on commercial projects for years. I always worked from scale drawings. Even though yours is different... a landscape design... the same applies. You need reference points.

Use a garden hose for layout. They are perfect for a number of reasons. Firm enough so they lay straight with good color differentiation so you can make adjustments easily.

Get a handle on your project. Then it will become fun and the installation will become a snap.

Dave

I agree and thanks guys for pointing me in the right direction, I really like the curves compared to my straight lines on the dog bone bed. The curves on the bed connecting the arbor will make my picea pungens 'hoopsii' and Picea glauca 'pendula' really pop! I like this much more than the round circle I had before that made these trees blend in.

Dave perhaps this fall I will take measurements off my yard and work on this over winter. Right now I just want to get a basic scetch of what I think could look good. I won't be putting these beds in until fall 2012. Tonight I'll lay the roundup down for the arbor bed, mark the spot for the plants, etc to get it ready to plant in 6 weeks pending weather.

A garden hose is definitely easier to use and lay out curves, I just use rope because the beds are very large. Just an example, the bed I have to the right of my house, I have about 400' of rope down to create this bed. The cost of rope is much less than the cost of hose. When I add those 3 beds to the back yard I'll lay out all 3 beds at once just to make sure I really like it. If I do one bed at a time with my water hose, I may not like the overall design once all 3 beds are in place. What looks great on paper could look bad in person and vise versa. I use 1/2 pink hose, it shows up pretty good and I can easily see the layout from the second story window.

I took your design and modified the middle bed to force the design to stay out in the yard and not so close to the house. I couldn't have it wrap around the kidney bed like you have it only because it would have put the small bed to the far right of your scetch in the back deck. With this design, I should have around 20' of space. I may or may not make the middle bed arch out on the other side a little instead of a half circle. It'll depend on how much room I'll have.

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ricksample, you are the ultimate decision maker. Make sure you are completely satisfied. Changes are hard to make once you stick the shovel in the ground.

You have a good start to have a wonderful conifer garden.

A big project for sure and one that will take years for everything to come together for good presentation.

Good luck,

Dave

P.S. Where did you get the pink hose?

Many many years for sure... the biggest and most expensive obstacle will be getting the beds created and placing all the conifers over the next 5 years. Filling in the spaces and adding ornamental features should be a fun job.

*Sorry, pink rope... looks like a typing error. $5.00/hundred feet @ Homedepot. Although it takes a little longer to create the curves, it's much more cost effective for such a large scale project.