Hybrid Oak?

12 years ago

Hello I have a bit of a dilemma. I had the opportunity this fall to pick up some acorns which were lying on the ground. The tree itself was unusually straight with fairly attractive bark. It was late fall and the tree had lost its leaves.

I'm not sure whether I've picked up a hybrid oak or a filbert. The leaves are closer to filbert but the tree is definitely not bushy.

The largest of the seedlings pictured below has the smallest root. Go figure. The tap roots are enormous on these things. I was thinking the nuts never had the traditional oak caps on them. So far the leaves strike me more as a filbert than oak. The leaves are becoming more jagged by the day. Still this leaf shape is nothing like a bur oak.

The parent tree is single trunk in form. Not bushy in the least with no spindly branches. All branches are very stout like oak. I asked the owner of the property how long the tree has been there and I was surprised by the answer. Only 14 years from seed and it is hovering around 12 feet in height.

The owner complained that all the nuts germinate every year. I found that hard to believe as all the acorns I've taken over the years were sterile duds. She said 95 out of every 100 acorns germinate. I didn't believe her but played along and she gave me some off the ground. Now that all six seedlings have germinated I'm inclined to believe her.

There aren't many oaks in Regina. There are no tree type hazels to the best of my knowledge in town. The oldest trees are the watered ones by the museum and legislature. We're zone 2b so I didn't think either would grow well here. Do you recognize this oak?

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Comments (17)

FrozeBudd_z3/4
12 years ago
Collin001, was the bark of that tree deeply grooved and cork like, if so it very likely is a bur oak. Your seedling strongly resembles that of the ones I had grown out many years ago ...

Terrance
Collin001
Original Author
12 years ago
I'd have to say yes on that. The appearance of the bark was what caught my eye and brought me to the property in the first place.
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Not to sound too harsh but it doesn't look like Overcup Oak to me. The lobes on Overcup Oak are relatively sharp pointed and the leaves of Overcup Oak are never as deeply lobed as this leaf. Also, the general shape of this leaf is strongly obovate just like all Burr Oak, while Overcup Oak can have obovate leaves, they are generally never this strongly so. Another thing, look at the 2 bottom lobes of both of your leaves, they are virtually identical. This initial basal lobe being wedge shaped, and followed by moderately deep sinus and 2 long narrower lobes like that seems to be typical for Burr Oak over most all of it's range. Another quick relatively easy way to tell the difference is the first year twigs, which are pubescent (hairy) on Burr Oak, but glabrous (hairless) on Overcup Oak. I will say the acorn does resemble those on some Overcup Oaks, but Burr Oak has notoriously varied acorns. You can find Burr Oaks with small acorns, about twice the size of Pin Oak acorns, as well as ones with huge acorns about 2 1/2 inches long and wide. You can also find Burr Oaks with acorn caps which completely lack any burs, or with caps which nearly enclose the acorn, or with caps that are extremely thick and much wider than the acorn, or ones which are much thinner and not much wider than the acorn. I'd say Burr Oak has the most widely variable acorns and acorn caps of any Oak I can think of.
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I'm very late to this discussion, but I have a couple of things to add. "I've never heard of any verified inter-sectional oak hybrids." Apparently the hybrid Quercus x kewensis is a good hybrid between the section Cerris, Q. cerris and the section Lobatae (Red Oaks), Q. wislizenii. That's the only known cross sectional hybrid Oak I know of which has any merit of being true. Several Oak experts have vouched for it being a good hybrid. Also, most all recent studies particularly involving Oaks and Oak pollen show that the vast majority of "live" pollen is dispersed within a few hundred meters of the parent tree. With virtually none being involved in the parentage of acorns produced on Oaks further away from the pollen producing tree than this(a couple hundred meters). So it's extremely unlikely that modern long distance pollen drift is involved in any way in these hybrid Oaks. There's much more strong evidence that past warmer climates(lasting for at least several hundreds of years, if not a few thousand years) accounted for both species of Oaks to be growing in close proximity, but subsequent colder climates, such as now(when compared to the past warmer climates) driving one of the species extinct in the local area, but hybrids remained. Of course, these hybrids aren't anywhere near 5,000 to 7,000 years old, but they did reproduce and left Oaks that are of mixed or hybrid ancestry. I'm sure that many of these initial F1 hybrids back crossed with one of the initial parents as well as cross pollinated each other and so on down through the generations, thus accounting for the great amount of variability in the Oaks we see today in these areas. I was one who brought this article up to one of the Oak e-discussion groups, mostly because I'd never heard of any claims of 5,000 to 7,000 year old Oaks before and thought it to be erroneous, which others concurred was the case.
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I have an 'Ooti' seedling, purchased from OIKOS, back around '96 - listed at that time as a hybrid of Q.macrocarpaXroburXvirginiana - but I'm more inclined to think muehlenbergii is the third species in the mix than virginiana; or, as this is an open-pollenated seedling, it might have had a Q.muehlenbergii pollen parent. I see nothing in foliage or acorn morphology to support virginiana anywhere in its heritage. Each flush of new growth has a very pleasing bronze/copper color that persists for quite some time, until leaves reach full size, at which time they green up; fall color is the typical yellow-brown of macrocarpa and muehlenbergii. Hybridization of the white oaks, particularly in arboretum or mixed-species 'orchard' plantings can be rampant. I bought and purchased 8 or 10 BurEnglish seedlings in the mid-90s; have grafted most of them over to the original 'McDaniel' macrocarpaXrobur selection, but one still has several branches below the graft - foliage on these 'understock' branches leaves no doubt that the pollen parent of that particular acorn was probably Q.gambelli or possibly Q.turbinella.
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Kevin, I don't have any Quercus information for you but I would suggest you shoot off an email to Polly Hill Arboretum. Tim Boland the executive director has a soft spot for Quercus and if they don't have the info you are looking for I am guessing they can direct you to someone who might. Good luck. Katy Here is a link that might be useful: Polly Hill Arboretum
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northspruce
12 years ago
It looks exactly like a bur oak to me. They're very common here in MB. The seedling leaves don't show the characteristic rounded edges yet. They should have no trouble whatsoever in zone 2b, actually I'm not sure why they're so common here and not in SK.
don555
12 years ago
My feeling is that this is a burr oak. They typically look like that until they get a few more leaves. Nice trees though, I'm growing two in my backyard.
northspruce
12 years ago
They generally grow quite slowly and can live a long, long time. In poor soils they will become stunted and grow low and twisted, and still live a long time. In good conditions they can get quite large. I have a photo of a nice specimen in an old cemetery. Can post if interested.
Collin001
Original Author
12 years ago
I wondered if I was simply looking at a juvenile leave pattern. I'd like to see a specimen photo northspruce. I thought about planting one of these trees at the very end of the property city permitting of coarse.
Konrad___far_north
12 years ago
I grow lots of them and agree with burr oak..there are some pictures in link.

Here is a link that might be useful: oak
Collin001
Original Author
12 years ago
Thanks Konrad, that was helpful. I'm torn between planting in the spring or leaving them grow in containers. Where I am planting will be very exposed to wind and sun and salt.
Konrad___far_north
12 years ago
Containers would be good, perhaps for a couple of years, otherwise it could get lost being so small.
Smivies (Ontario - 5b)
12 years ago
Typical juvenile oak leaves.....not unique to Bur Oak but given your location, it is the most likely choice.
FrozeBudd_z3/4
12 years ago
In recent years, many bur oaks have planted in Spruce Grove and growing rather quickly likely due to the good soil they're situated in. The trees vary somewhat in form and fullness with a few of them being extremely attractive.
northspruce
12 years ago
This is the one in the cemetery. Taken in spring obviously when it was just leafing out. They often don't end up this symmetrical, this is a particularly nice one IMO.
Collin001
Original Author
12 years ago
That's a mighty big tree northspruce. Nice. I wonder how long it took to get that size.
Konrad___far_north
12 years ago
Yea..this is a mighty nice oak tree northspruce.
My estimate 50 plus years...perhaps 75?

I have some now about 15 years and I see in spring when they flower that honey bees are on them, so I'm extremely pleased with this,...I never knew this would happen when planted.
northspruce
12 years ago
At a guess it's right around 100 years old. The cemetery was consecrated in 1910 and the tree is in the middle like it was planted on purpose - but who knows.
Collin001
Original Author
12 years ago
Pleased to note a third one will be up in the next day. Newer development on oldest is starting to look more like the adult leaf. I guess in all the fuss I got excited. First time growing these things after all. :) Thanks for bearing with me!
Collin001
Original Author
12 years ago
Update: All 6 came up. 100% germination. Here is a shot of what they look like in spring. Currently looking for larger containers.

Hybrid Oak?

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