Dicentra & Thalictrum Combo?

Pudge 2b

18 years ago

Thalictrum aquilegifolum and Dicentra spectabilis bloom at the same time in my yard. I don't grow the other Thalictrums, so can't comment on those.

Crazy_Gardener

18 years ago

I'd say Thalictrum delavayi `Hewitt's Double'
would be an excellent plant to hide that empty spot, blooms July to August.

My Dicentra's are planted in the cool shade in which they don't go dormant, reblooms again in the fall.

Sharon

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'The shapes of different cotinus varieties are really varied. Mine are red - royal purple, maybe? and they can't be said to have any shape at all. They send out branches in every direction, including along the ground - and take up a lot of real estate. Nothing can be planted around them, really.' Have to disagree with a last sentence. My Royal Purple cotinus planted at the back of the only 6' deep border, it's either limbed up or simply pruned every spring to 4' of the ground and it's a companions friendly if you remove all horizontal growth. It is an integral part of this 'large shrubs border' It flanked on one side by callicarpa 'Profusion' and sambucus 'Sutherland Gold' on another (too shaded and too green now, but nicely contrasts with cotinus in a spring. Also there are two hydrangeas Tardiva and physocarpus Diabolo. Six giants next to each other maybe sounds like too much, but it actualy works since they are planted 5-6' apart. They grow into each other, but overall whole group looks great because of the different foliage color and texture. All are vigorous, but prunable, so if I need to snap one stubborn branch or another it doesn't affect the whole picture. In front of this group I planted two layers of plants in a staggered pattern: hybiscus 'Lord Baltimor' (not a baby either), spireas, two peonies, caryopteris Worchester Gold (too small yet), daylilies and tall lilium davidii plus some daffodils in between. Overall starting from spring till the end of the season this group have something either blooming or otherwise interesting.

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sharons2
Original Author

18 years ago

Your Dicentras rebloom again in the Fall? Wow! I'll have to ask around here and see if that ever happens in our zone. There is a far shadier place that I could plant it eventually, but we need to get control of the rest of our property first.

How does 'Hewitt's Double' perform in the garden? I've been looking it up and the reported sizes range from 3' tall x 2' wide to 6' tall x 3' wide. People also say that it needs tall neighboring plants to help support it without staking.

About how tall is the foliage when the Bleeding Hearts bloom? (I know. What a question to ask when it's snowing outside.) How tall does the foliage get total? And how much taller are the flower stems? Also, which one of these pictures is more accurate for color? Is it lavender or more pinkish, like the picture on Botanus shows?

Thanks,
Sharon

Here is a link that might be useful: Thalictrum 'Hewitt's Double' on Botanus

abgardeneer

18 years ago

My Dicentra spectabilis don't rebloom, but Dicentra eximia blooms all through the season - a plant with much shorter stature though.

Thalictrum delavayi does splendidly in the garden in humusy soil - it hits a little over 6'. My old, mature plant is 2' across, in sun. My newer plant, a white cultivar, is in part shade. Unlike the impression given by your last photo, the flower stalks on mine stand well above the mound of the leaves. Neither needs staking, though they are in areas that escape the full blast of the wind.

Actually, I'd recommend the straight species, Thalictrum delavayi rather than the cultivar 'Hewitt's Double' - the single flowers are so graceful and elegant (with protruding golden stamens), and that is lost on the "powderpuff" doubles. But that's just me...
By the way, both my plants were labelled as 'Hewitt's Double' but neither is.

My normally-colored plant is mauve - no pink at all - so your first photo appears most accurate...unless the pink photos are of differently-colored cultivars that I am not aware of.

A mature plant of Dicentra spectabilis is about 3' tall, and blooms pretty much consistent with that height, by my recollection - the flower stalks don't stand out significantly from the mass of the plant.

By the way, you ("Far Northerners", I mean) should also try Thalictrum flavum glaucum if you don't already have it - another very tall meadow rue for sun. This one does tend to lean a bit, however. The flowers are yellow, and, as implied by the name, the foliage is bluish with a dusty bloom on it. The emerging foliage in spring is the most wonderful blue-green-purple - sounds awful, but it's exquisite!

abgardeneer

18 years ago

Oh, and T. delavayi blooms in August here... for a good long time.

sharons2
Original Author

18 years ago

Hi Lori (ABgardeneer),

After stumbling across the pictures of your supposed 'Hewitt's Double' in an August 23rd thread, I was wondering when you would chime in. I'll haunt the nurseries around August and see if I can get a good look at the real thing. 6' tall sounds a little awkward for my spot, though. It's next to our front porch, and I think it would look too tall - taller than the stairs and the front porch. Here's a picture:

{{gwi:727286}}
The bleeding heart here is arching over a blooming Lenten Rose (Helleborus orientalis) to the left that you can barely see. The plant in front is a Feverfew which I have since moved. There is also a window well behind the bleeding heart.

I'd think about moving the Dicentra up, planting the Thalictrum behind it, and putting something else in front; but I'm afraid the Thalictrum wouldn't get enough water back there - at least until the Dicentra was cut back. They need a moist soil, don't they? Do you have any good ideas for a combination which would work in that spot? (Someone once suggested that I put a potted Hosta in a plant stand over the cut stems.)

How tall is a Thalictrum delavayi when it's not in flower? If it's slow to come up, could I crowd it unusually close to the Dicentra to take over later in the year? Would the non-flowering stems tend to arch out over the empty spot that way, or would it more likely cause too much competition for the roots?

Thanks,
Sharon

abgardeneer

18 years ago

Actually, IMO, a really tall plant or even a narrow evergreen (e.g. juniper) would look great there - something to frame the entrance area a bit, while tying the elevated step to the ground level plantings below it.

There are many other nice tall perennials that would fit the bill too, e.g. delphiniums (assuming the house gives some shelter from the wind), tall grasses, etc..

About moisture requirements - since you are already growing a bleeding heart and a hellebore there, there's clearly enough moisture for thalictrums. I haven't found that any of the species I grow need unusual amounts of moisture or extra watering. They prefer nice humusy soil, as I said....but then most of our garden plants do. (I'd just add some mulch on top of the bare soil though...)

The plants you have or had growing in that spot look fine in the pictures, so it's pretty obvious you're not dealing with any sort of a "hell spot" either....so relax!
By the way, that is an excellent hellebore - wish mine bloomed so freely!

To answer your question, the basal leafy mound part of T. delavayi is about, I don't know, two and a half feet tall? The flower stems start coming up in early July, I'd guess, and they pretty much grow straight up. Given that you are a lot further south and in a warmer area, it may bloom earlier there.

There's not much point fretting a lot over plant combinations - there is no single plant that anyone has ordained as the ideal one to go next to any other one. Healthy, well-grown plants look great, and they look great in combination with other healthy well-grown plants! (And no one was ever struck blind even by seeing a pink flower next to an orange one either, LOL!) Just pick a plant for the attributes you decide you want there, and plug it in!

Can't say I lie awake at night worrying about root competition either. If the above-ground portions of the plants are so crowded that one does not get the light it needs, or the air circulation it needs (but I think you're also in a dry area, so unlikely a problem) or if it is not shown to its best advantage, then they are too crowded. I think that's pretty simple.

The reason the dicentra dies back is because it gets a lot of sun which causes it to go dormant...not because of root competition. Also, it sounds as though you do plan to move the bleeding heart to shade eventually anyway, and the space looks plenty big to me for a good sized plant, so...

And, needless to say, whatever you plant, you can always move it if you don't like it there.

sharons2
Original Author

18 years ago

Your monitor must be better than mine, but thanks for the compliment on my Hellebore. It's the only one I've ever grown, so I just thought they all bloomed that well. I got mine from Jung.

I thought Thalictrums don't like to be moved, and I tend to fret more over permanent plants (shrubs, trees, monkshood, goat's beard, baby's breath, gas plant...) than the easily moveable ones. But you're right...I generally do tend to fret more than I should.

The area is generally moist, but it gets watered by a sprinkler in the front of the bed, and it seems fairly dry to me behind the Bleeding Heart before it is cut down. I was more worried that the Thalictrum might die on me from lack of water in the Spring. Most likely, though, I'd water it by hand every day for the first year anyway - so it would surely be established before it had to deal with any drought conditions - which means I was probably fretting needlessly over that detail. I suppose if it looks like it's suffering later, it will bear being moved.???

I space plants according to their mature size, so I'm not sure how close I dare plant them when you want one plant to fill in a hole that's left by another that's dormant. Do you use that technique at all? How close do you plant when you want that effect? (Okay, she says that I don't have to worry about root competition. I don't have to worry about root competition. I don't have to worry about.... It'll be okay.)

Sharon

abgardeneer

18 years ago

Ummm, I think daily watering would put almost any terrestrial plant in real danger of drowning, LOL!

Like I said, the hellebore appears to be doing very nicely with whatever your rainfall and watering frequency is...and it is a woodland-type plant just like the thalictrum. And you just mentioned that it is a "naturally moist spot", as well...and whatever that indicates, it should be fine since the hellebore is fine. The reason it is dry behind the bleeding heart is because of the overhang of your house's eaves (correct me if I'm wrong) - it doesn't get the rainfall that a spot 1 foot out from the eaves overhang would. That's entirely normal, so it's best not to plant stuff right back there.

Yes, you can move the thalictrum if you don't like it there - you can move pretty well any plant at any time, if you do it carefully and aren't too brutal with its roots (i.e. cut with a spade a good distance away from the base of the plant, all around the plant, and keep the rootball intact). You can even move plants that have tap roots (the kinds of plants about which is always said "resents transplanting") - they may sulk for a while, but if you have done it carefully, it's really hard to kill them! And thalictrums don't have tap roots, anyway.

As far as planting for maximum, mature size...no, I guess I live a little more in the shorter term, since many perennials take years to reach maturity, and I don't want to see bare ground between them, possibly for years. I plant for the size that I can reasonably expect the plant to get within a couple of years. Beyond that, I'll move something if it's needed, and "needed" would mean for the reasons I mentioned before.
Anyway, relax!! This should be fun, not worrisome, LOL!

sharons2
Original Author

18 years ago

I was just reading a thread on stinky plants and found this quote: "Meadow Rue smells like urine, like someone wet the bed in the middle of the garden." Can anybody comment on this? I was planning to plant it right next to the front stairs.... So, if it does smell like urine that could be bad. Yuck!

abgardeneer

18 years ago

Well, can't say I've detected a "urine" smell from any of the meadow rue species I grow...some are distinctly fragrant and some are not. The ones that are not I don't find objectionable or even strongly scented, but I guess that's up to the individual to judge.
It seems to me that Thalictrum delavayi has a slight, sweet fragrance, if that's the one you're considering.
Well, really, if this thalictrum is causing such doubts, why not just plant something you are familar with?

sharons2
Original Author

18 years ago

Now, don't mind me, Lori. I don't have a lot of money this year, but I can fret all I want for free! And when you consider that a couple years ago I couldn't even recognize a Pansy by it's leaves, if I only ever planted things that I was familiar with, I would have a very bare yard right now.... ;-)

I have over 100 different trial plants now; though I generally haven't been as interested in Thalictrum, due to it's short bloomtime. But I'm getting more interested in foliage that stays good looking all season now; and if it will do what I'm hoping it will, I shall be very pleased.

I am just trying to avoid any unpleasant surprises. Last year, I was all excited about trying out Agastache 'Blue Fortune' until I actually got close to one and whiffed it's black licorice scent. (Yuck!) Agastache cana is supposed to smell like bubble gum, though. Is that hardy in climates this cold?

Sharon

Dicentra & Thalictrum Combo?

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