How invasive are (weeping white & norway) spruce roots?

12 years ago

I have read that spruce trees have shallow roots. I plan on acquiring a Weeping Norway Spruce and a Weeping White Spruce for my yard.

I have one spot in front of my house and alongside a concrete entryway path that I want to plant *something.* A Weeping White Spruce would be lovely in the spot, but after some research, it seems it's a poor choice because of proximity to concrete (3'-4'.)

How far away from patios/concrete/pavers should these spruce trees be?

While I have your attention, is there a different columnar/narrow evergreen that would be a better choice?

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lolauren
Original Author

12 years ago

I had a feeling someone would scold me for not using Latin. :) I have read many, many threads on this forum, so I have witnessed the mini & dwarf obsession here. I love it and support it. You Conifer-obsessed have breath-taking gardens.

For this particular spot, I wanted something with some height. I will certainly buy smaller conifers for other spaces and will for this space, if I have to. Unfortunately, since I plan to live in the home indefinitely, I do want to plan for 10 years from now... While I love these trees, I will not love them if their root system messes up my walkway/driveway/etc. Similarly, I have to plant appropriately near my septic drain field.

Ken, I have read you rant about maples many, many times. May I plant maples and not worry about their effect in 5, 10, 20 years? ;) (I don't actually want a maple.) I know you caution against them for multiple reasons..... so I'm just trying to see if I should have concerns about the spruce roots as well... I'm curious if anyone has experience with spruce roots being destructive.

Weeping White Spruce - Picea glauca Pendula (which grows at least a foot a year. I know I have space for the tree above ground.............. what happens below ground is another story. :))

Weeping Norway Spruce - Picea abies Pendula

RE: pics, I am not at my home for a few days.

I appreciate your feedback....

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Comments (12)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
12 years ago
hi lo ...

i am of the school that you buy what makes your toes tingle.. and get rid of it in 10 or 20 years.. rather than opt for some subpar specimen that 'fits' a spot ... is this really something to worry about???

i wish you could post a pic of your spot ... as your words are a bit lacking.. link below for such ...

conifers is the first and only place ... where i learned the latin ONLY ... so could you be more specific as to which ones you are asking about???? to precisely ID your plants.. will help you get precise answers ...

this link will take you to an INTRO to conifers.. and i would like you to look to the annual growth rates ... and that will be the key to how fast a given tree grows in a YEAR .. and most estimates are simply that number times ten .. and if you divide a given 10 year height by 10.. you sometimes get a very specific annual growth rate ... [you need to copy/paste this one]

http://www.conifersociety.org/cs2/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=3

from that.. you will see that there is a group of plants.. that are called MINI's ... and you could probably plant ten of them in your spot ... if you wish .. that is called enabling.. lol ...

anyway.. back to the top ... plant what makes you happy .. and dont worry about 10 or 20 years from now ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link
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Ken thanks for jumping in to assist. I see now that I did not offer enough information so I will answer all your questions 1 by 1. Later on today I will take some photos & post them. I can not right now as it is raining hard. 1. As for the pots. They are the typical black pots that the nurseries use to display the specimens for sale. The sizes of each are listed below next to the description/size of each plant. 2. My location is zone 6a in Pennsylvania between Allentown & the Poconos. 3. About my soil, it is terrible, a mix of clay & pulverized shale, I'm in the Slate Belt area. For all my landscaping I have brought in literally "tons" of enriched topsoil, compost etc. which I have ammended to the planting areas, turning in deeply & well. I have been working on this soil for many years. Right now there is an area in the rear of home (shaded most of the day, early morning sun only) that is ready for planting, drainage would be good & the hose bib is close by if needed. 4. Well if size matters, here goes..... (all measurements taken from where soil & truck meet to top of specimen) Norway Spruce #1 is 3' tall in a black 12"w x 9"h pot. Norway Spruce #2 is 2 1/2' tall in a black 10"w x 9"h pot. Boxwood Spiral is 3 1'2' tall in a 15"w x 12" h pot. 5. When I take the photos later today I will tip these babies out of the pots & shoot photos to show the condition of the roots. 6. Now as for the bargain, the Norwood Spruce were $7.50 ea. & the Spiral Boxwoods were $8.50 ea. At those prices I thought I would give it a try to bring them home & hopefully be able to save them from danger. Even though I am a novice & will follow direction & work hard to protect these guys. My ground is not frozen at this point & I do have a nice shaded area behind my house. I am not sure how you "make sure to keep them dormant", watering, mulching etc in this situation. Any education/input would be greatly appreciated.
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Ken-adrian it is not telephone-poled. The leader is only slightly flexible, and bending up a bit could keep it from dragging the ground. it It has just been planted after 3 years in a pot. Hurricanes were an issue in it’s beachside home in CT. Not a worry now. The owners are sentimental about it, it must stay. This is the only logical spot in the small yard with enough sun. My suggested location, not the client’s. I just want to make the best of it. And NOOO I dont want to move it! If I dont have to. It is heavy! I just want to be clear on my options for pruning & training it. 20 year window is all I am concerned with. Your 30 year tree gives me some insight. Any idea on it’s current width? Johnfuda has me concerned, but I am under the impression this is a tree that you can somewhat control the size of with selective pruning or train it as it grows along. Could yearly spading/root pruning keep it from upheaving the patio? I thought spruce were very slow growing, especially if they are not in their native setting. and before planting, roots were circling! I am guessing it is a picea abies ‘pendula’ too. But all pruning/training info I find seems to reference that tree’s first 3 years. This tree is older than that. I am intrigued by the 2nd leader suggestion. I know how to do that on other evergreens. As for letting them battle it out for space with the underplantings— well, in a tiny city garden every inch is precious. I only want to sacrifice the area if doing otherwise will create a stupid looking evergreen.
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
12 years ago
Ken, I have read you rant about maples many, many times. May I plant maples and not worry about their effect in 5, 10, 20 years? ;) (I don't actually want a maple.) I know you caution against them for multiple reasons..... so I'm just trying to see if I should have concerns about the spruce roots as well...

===>>> you miss the wisdom of it all ..

i will yell.. I DONT CARE WHAT YOU DO IN YOUR GARDEN...

you take what i say.. and use it.. or file it appropriately ... all i can tell you .. is my experience ... and that is key .. because i am not telling you what other wise sages have written or posted on the WWW ... i speak from my personal experience .. in my personal gardens ...

if you want to make the same mistakes i made.. ALL THE POWER TO YA .... i learned by making mistakes ... you feel free to do the same ...

you said: Picea glauca Pendula (which grows at least a foot a year. I know I have space for the tree above ground.............. what happens below ground is another story. :))

===>>>

this one grows straight up ... are you spacing it for 20 foot plus potential ... one foot by 20 years??? or is the placement too close to the house ???

but Picea abies Pendula.. BUT .. there always seem to be a big but around.. lol ...

you train it to the height you want.. and then it grows one foot per year... STRAIGHT DOWN ...

i dont have time right now for pics ....

one is a true weeper.. as per Pa pendula...

the other.. glauca ... is a vertical leader plant.. with all BRANCHES weeping down.. making it rather thin ... [BTW.. this is another rant of mine.. where one term describes two growth habits .. pshaw]

if you google the latin on each.. and flip to the IMAGES side ... i bet you will now see the difference ... and you will run across a very large glauca that you hopefully will understand that you can not plant within 20 feet of the house or so.. which would rule out your space that i am envisioning in my mind ...

how about a pic????

ken
dcsteg
12 years ago
"Similarly, I have to plant appropriately near my septic drain field".

Good luck with that. I don't know of any plant that won't go for that source of nutrients. Still that would not deter me if I had a need for a plant in that area. A Roto root procedure should take care of that if the need arises.

Most Maples surface rooters. Some worst then others.

What height do you want in 10 years? Approximate spacing between drive way and plantings?

Picea glauca 'Pendula' OK. Not a surface rooter.

Picea abies "Pendula' Picea pungens 'Glauca Pendula' OK. 5 ft. from drive way for
12 years.

I have many Pinus, Picea, Juniperus, Chamaecyparis and Cedrus cultivars near drive way and foundation with no surface rooting issues. You concerns are unfounded.

Buy, plant and enjoy.

Dave
lolauren
Original Author
12 years ago
Ken --- to be clear, I do appreciate your advice and your garden wisdom. If it appeared any other way, I apologize.

I know the difference between the two trees (because I searched on this forum! thank you!)....... I just haven't grown them personally to know about their rooting system.

Dave, thank you for sharing that about your trees. That info is what I was hoping to hear (that my concerns were unfounded.) :)

I can take a photo when I'm home, but I'm currently four hours away in Portland area (so, nursery/conifer paradise... and I have room to grab a couple trees while I'm here.)

DH measured for me... The bed I'm planning on would have about 8' radius from the tree on all sides. Two sides of the bed are bordered by a concrete walkway.. This space is not right next to the house..... probably 20' away.

So..... I think I have plenty of room for Picea glauca Pendula. It can grow very tall in that space without any issue. I could even indulge and put some mini conifers in that same bed, right? ;)
dcsteg
12 years ago
lolauren,

Good choice...Picea glauca 'Pendula'. Very formal with perfect balance.

Your correct in you assessment of plenty of room.

Shoot us some photos when planted.

Dave
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
12 years ago
Ken --- to be clear, I do appreciate your advice and your garden wisdom. If it appeared any other way, I apologize.

==>>> i did NOT read anything into the debate ... no need to apologize .. but accepted if it pleases you ..

ken
ricksample
12 years ago
Definitely a favorite of mine, great choice! How far away from the septic field are you planning to plant stuff? I wouldn't plant stuff that grows 2' a year right next to it. I have a septic field that splits my entire back yard. Right now I have beds in front of it... in a few years I'll have beds behind it. The conifers I have in these couple beds in front are smaller... they grow around 4-6" a year... the nearest conifer to my septic is about 40' from the field. So I should have room to grow.
lolauren
Original Author
12 years ago
I'm not planting anything near the drain field, except grasses and such. I am trying to be very careful with that space... I do have a bed near it that might get some small conifers, like yours. I would love to see photos of what you've done around your septic field... have you posted any?
ricksample
12 years ago
I haven't really posted any photos of these two beds... these were made last fall, then winter came so I had to stop working on them. I'll probably finish getting the other conifers and mulch in these two beds probably spring 2013. Here's the only real shot I have of these 2 beds. There is about a 10' path between the beds so I don't block the long view to the back of my property from my deck. I've also labled a few of the plants along with the distance to the drain field. Some of the plants not pictured that are kind of behind me to the left are: Picea Pungens 'Sester's dwarf' & Acer palmatum 'Waterfall'.

{{gwi:674189}}
ricksample
12 years ago
By the way, the drain field is on the far left in front of all those trees and brush. It runs the same angle as both of the beds.
lolauren
Original Author
12 years ago
thanks :) I'm always curious what people do with their drain fields...

How invasive are (weeping white & norway) spruce roots?

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Original Author

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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

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