I just posted on the "Wrapping shrub for protection" thread concerning a winter wind damaged Japanese holly. We have an old established Japanese holly that's been growing for years in a fairly sunny spot exposed to strong northwest winter winds. This is zone 6b. It seems to handle it OK. However, this fall I planted a small ilex crenata "Green Luster" in front of it. I did wrap it in burlap, but I took the burlap off this spring and then a short return of cold windy weather burned the leaves. There are issues of whether the little ilex had time to get roots well established, but my experience would argue against putting japanese holly in your proposed location. Claire

Resin, Some sources about Cedrus libani from Turkey Reforestation… http://ressources.ciheam.org/om/pdf/a75/00800313.pdf Ibrahim Atalay http://www.jeb.co.in/journal_issues/201001_jan10/paper_07.pdf Ibrahim Atalay http://www.uni-graz.ac.at/geowww/hmrsc/pdfs/hmrsc7/atalay29-38.pdf The turkish sources never mention the plant name Cedrus libani stenocoma. Just Cedrus libani. They should have use the „Turkish cedar” terminology, but they do not use it. If a turkish scientist knows only Cedrus libani, I’m ready to accept it as he is at home in his country. Generally I give much more credit in my conifer books to chinese scientists in describing their own flora (Sylva Sinica), as for russians in their country (Komarov, Czerepanov) like any others. Resin, I fully respect the british role in discovering in world’s botany, but since a time as the world is no more a british dominium, we have to accept the local science’s point of views. Sagalassos II The physical environment of Sagalassos http://books.google.com/books/p/leuven_university_press?id=L_41KIX2pVoC&printsec=frontcover&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false The University Leuven followed archaeologic excavations in Sagalassos, which has a physical environment description. Belgian scientists were going on to give a complete picture about the excavating site, even deep climatic datas with. Here we can read, that the years average temperature in Sagalassos is 9,9 Celsius degree. This is the same as me in Hungary, but the Sagalassos environment is totally different. The coldest month is January with av. -5,8 with repeatedly coming -30 C. They have there 4 months dry and cold, and inside 80 days with dry sun. These are very hard circumstances with selecting power. The biggest problem is of these cedars the beeing without water. Maybe there is an av. yearly rainfall 600-1200 mm, the plants get water only once a year at snow melting! Summer is hot and dry, snow is even very much in winters, but the cedars there get water in a short month. Last, but not least about wind. I guess alaskan scientists know well, that a -20 C with 60 km/h wind works like a silent -40C. The USDA zones are used at us too, but not perfect. Cant make differece in frost resisting, climate resistence or winter resistence, which are very different things. My point of view with the high selected lebanon cedars, that if we carry them to a little or more better circumstances, they will not only survive, but they have very good chance to grow well in z5, as they do it. The new selecting program of HTJ is based on such like datas, and till now he brought out there 20 new cultivars ��" green, silvery or blue, also differents in habit, form etc. as Cedrus libanis are all different and variable inside the species. These plants are selected for dry continental circumstances in Eastern Europe and the Rockies in the States even up to Canada. The semidesert conifering will bring hopefully new achievements. Having an example of Cupressus. The semidesert cypresses from the US are very good selection matters to the continental Europe or even in Turkey. The last winter in Hungary was really hard with long -25-28 C frosts. The SW US originated cypresses in the very dry Arizonica Arboretum had no damage. The same cultivars in urban areas got heavy problems, many died or frosted up to 2-3 meters. I realized, that the continental cypresses have a big enemy: the water. The British Isles or Holland is not quite good for the continental cypresses: no heat, not enough sun and too much rain. If you want to select cypresses to the wet european areas, you should choose the himalayan or formosan specieses, which tolerate cold, sun and too much water. HTJ has some of them too after the world conifer discoveries of Debreczy and Racz in the last 30 years. Zsolt Notes Sagalassos II: report on the third excavation campaign of 1992 By Marc Waelkens, J.P. Page 231 and further Ibrahim Atalay, 1987 General Ecological Properties of Natural Occurence Areas of Cedar / Cedrus libani A. Rich./ Forest and Regioning of Seed Transfer of Cedar in Turkey Orman Genel Müdürlügü Yayini. Yayin No. 663 Ankara M. Boydak, Reforestation of Lebanon Cedar /Cedrus libani A. Rich./ in Bare Karstic Lands by Broadcast Seeding in Turkey Page 35 Zsolt

the key is the annual GROWTH RATE .... you can find such at the ACS database .... plus what you start with .... if a mini grows one inch per year .... it surely doesnt need to be put 10 feet from anything ... if a dwarf grows 3 to 6 inches... well you are going to have to give it more space .. comparatively speaking ... etc ... on intermediate and species .... i tend toward the logic of .. plant something that will make your toes curl for about 10 years.... and then get rid of it.. and start over ... if it out grows the space .....so i guess i use spacing under such logic ... no use buying things that FIT... just because they fit .... buy something special ... but then.. things die.... the one next to it matures into something really ugly ... etc ... so think about your garden in 5 or 10 or 20 years .... and truly understand ...NO GARDEN IS PERMANENT ... the real beauty of minis... is you can pretty easily move a 15 year old plant ... it isnt going to be all that big in the future .... but you dont want to try moving the bigger ones in a decade or two ... plan the backbones of your garden .. but dont worry too much about the smaller stuff ... my best advice .... there is no season for conifers .... get out this winter.. to a professional arboretum ... and instead of focusing just on the plants ... focus on how they spaced theirs .... you dont mention where you are.. if you did... we can probably recommend such .... if you are within 2 hours of hidden lakes garden in tipton MI ... just north of adrian .. it would be one of the best road trips you ever took ... in regard to conifers.... link below i have planted various shrubs.. and daylily and iris in between plants [the plants that most gardeners share for free] ... just to take up space.. and provide some interest ... if and when the plants need the space... well ... you know whats going to die ... lol ... they also can live with as little care as an established conifer .... good luck ken Here is a link that might be useful: link

boy my answer above sucked.. lol ... winter damage is not just about sun ... it is also about winter winds ... and temp fluctuations ... in mid winter.. a plant .. in your clime should be dormant.. get it dormant.. and keep it dormant ... the problem with evergreen type plants ... is that you get these sunny comparatively warm days.. and the leaves can that ... and then they refreeze at night ... plus the drying effects of winter winds ... and you have a recipe for freeze dried evergreen leaves ... in a sense ... with the multiple variables ... the choice of stock might not matter ... your best shot.. would be to try to find stock that is 2 or 3 zones colder than your zone .... which i now see mary above mentions .... when i started with conifers.. in the ground... damage tended to appear in mid to late spring.. when the temps started warming.. and that is when the evergreen tissue started browning ... i found it very hard to figure out.. when the actual damage occurred ... and to assign a reason ... especially since in my MI.. i did a lot of fall planting ... one thing for sure.. as the plants aged .. over the years ... the more established the plant became.. the easier they could overcome the effects of winter ... and one very important thing in all that.. was that the plants went into winter.. full of water ... in other words.. in prime shape... especially if it was a drought year ... and that is part of what i was getting at.. in my first reply ... the plants need proper watering.. with proper drainage.. late into fall ... but the media can not be holding so much water .. that you freeze the roots into an ice cube ... and yes.. DAS are carp plants ... over marketed and ridiculously cheap due to such .... perhaps you should stay with them.. keeping in mind.. that they are semi disposable ... just replace them every few years ... due to your location issues ... i suspect some winters you will win.. and others you will lose.. and that is simply the odds you are going to have to accept... in your situation .... ken