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alina_1

Safe distance to the home foundation?

alina_1
16 years ago

Hi everyone,

My potted Clemmies are going to the ground finally. I am planting my front bed right now. I would like to plant 3-4 Clematis next to the home foundation. I have 3-4 feet between the foundation and Rhododendron shrubs to plant my Clematis.

Will 1' to the concrete foundation be too close? Anything else I should know?

Thanks in advance,

Alina.

Comments (18)

  • nckvilledudes
    16 years ago

    Alina, most advice in books I have read say that you should plant the clematis several feet from the foundation since that area is protected by the eaves of the house and rainfall may not reach your plants there. That being said, I have several clematis planted within a foot of the house on the north side of the house and they are doing well. Sputnik, Madame Julia Correvon, and Purpurea Plena Elegans are also planted right next to the house wall in a 12 inch planting space I have between the sidewalk and garage wall. They are flourishing. Just make sure that the plants get enough water and you should be fine.

    I do want to say that I have had bad experiences with trying to grow montanas on the wall between the sidewalk and the garage wall. The plants generally do well for a year or so and then they just wilt completely back and never return. I am not sure if the drainage is not good enough for them there or if there is not enough root run area there or what, but they have completely flopped in that area. I have amended the soil well there but to no good. Don't know why Julia Correvon, PPE, and Sputnik have done well there but montanas won't.

    Here is a picture of the area where the 3 are doing well but the montanas won't survive.
    {{gwi:591343}}

    Shot showing montana grandiflora to the far left that eventually died out.

    {{gwi:247303}}

    Montana Brewster that didn't make it there either!
    {{gwi:588897}}

  • alina_1
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Miguel,
    Your advice is helpful as usual!
    I am planning to plant mostly early large flower group Clematis there. It is west side of the house, 1-4 hours of direct sun and then dappled shade. I think I can provide them with good drainage. Air circulation should also be fine. Do not think it will be a problem with rainfall there. So, I guess I am going for it!
    Thanks for the help and wonderful pictures!
    Alina.

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  • Carrie B
    16 years ago

    I have a little city garden, bound by my house and a few other rowhomes. I have a couple dozen clematis (including montana 'mayleen' and montana 'freda') growing up trellises, either against my home or my neighbors'. It hasn't been a problem.

  • alina_1
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    How close to the home and to each other they are planted? Do you have any other plants next to them?
    Still planning my bed...

  • nckvilledudes
    16 years ago

    Carrie, I think my issue with the montanas up close to the house are due to either lack of sufficient drainage or lack of root run space. I literally have a foot wide space that is 15 or so feet long. The other type IIIs have done well there but the montanas haven't. I have amended the soil in the area like mad to help with the drainage but it hasn't helped. I wonder about the root run space. The plant could run its roots up under the sidewalk but perhaps that is the problem--not enough air under the sidewalk.

    I previously had variegated porcelain vines growing up the walls and across the front of the garage. They did fantastically in that area going up the wall and across the front of the garage. Unfortunately, the plants reseeded like mad and when I found seedlings appearing in the neighbor's yard, I removed both plants. The fact that they drew japanese beetles by the millions didn't help! Just can't figure out why montanas don't seem to like that area.

    The montana grandiflora climbing the wall in the following picture is actually climbing the thicker vines of the porcelain vine. I cut off and killed the vines where they entered the soil and allowed the montana to climb the older vines of the porcelain vines. The plans were to clip off and remove the porcelain vines as the montana took over. It worked for about a year and one half until the montana died.

    {{gwi:588894}}

  • janetpetiole
    16 years ago

    Alina, I have read that clematis should have about 4 feet of space around them, but I have yet to see any proof that so much space is necessary. Ask any avid clematis grower here and you will find that most do not follow that rule at all. One advantage to having ample space around a clematis is for digging room should you decide to move it, but, to me, that isn't a good enough reason to allow a lot of space. If the area gets ample water, or you can provide it, then it's ok.
    Besides, the climbing support might not look good out further from the building in order to adhere to someone's planting "rule".

    I think it's personal preference. I am more of a minimalist, others are huzzies. If you want to know what that means, read here.
    http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/clematis/msg0709495220646.html

    An issue I don't think was mentioned yet, or if it's a problem for you, is often times the soil around the foundation is builder's soil and will contain a lot of small stones and sticky clay. If you haven't dug around the foundation yet, I would check it out to see if you will have any problems with the soil. Better to check that now, before you get ready to plant.

    The most important thing to know about foundation planting is, if you haven't already, make sure you know where the underground utilities enter the home. You don't want to start digging and hit the water or gas line.

  • alina_1
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Thanks Janet,
    I do have some builders' stuff in this bed. That is why I try to dig holes big enough for plants to establish before their roots will hit surrounding soil. I try to remove all cement and brick pieces. My only concern with that: could concrete and cement that will remain in the ground be harmful (poisonous?) for plants?
    Clematis will have plenty of room to expand on their sides. They will be 1' to the home wall and 2-3' to the Rhododendrons and Azaleas. I hope that will be enough.

    The utility company marked the lot for me. I hit the Comcast cable when I was digging 3.5' from the marking line already ;-)

    Thanks for your help guys!

  • nckvilledudes
    16 years ago

    Janet, you want your plants to hit the native soil. What you don't want is to overly amend the planting hole so that the roots stay confined in the better overly amended soil. They will be more dependent on you for water if their roots don't go out into a wider area.

    As for the construction debris, the concrete may leach lime into the soil as will the foundation footings, but it has not hurt mine so far!

  • janetpetiole
    16 years ago

    Did you mean to address your first comment to me, Miguel? Since I didn't say anything about amending the planting holes, I'll assume you meant that for someone else. However... I do have opinions about amending the planting hole;-)

    I'm on record for saying that I don't amend the planting hole any more in most areas of my garden, but don't amend for reasons other than you suggested. Since I have moved nearly all the plants and shrubs in my garden, and have yet to see one occasion where the roots haven't left the original, amended hole after a reasonable period of time, to me it is a non-issue.
    I don't amend anymore because:
    - My soil is good enough that I don't need to, although top dressing with organics is essential, IMO.
    - The organics gets used up so fast there really isn't a point, unless you are dealing with soil extremes.
    - I have read that altering the soil with organics can interfere with soil organisms so much that they can die off, leading to bigger problems like disease and a lesser ability to take up water and nutrients.

    To Alina: I think that if you had too much lime in your soil, the rhodos and azaleas would be suffering. I wouldn't worry about your clematis.

  • nckvilledudes
    16 years ago

    Janet, you are correct. I was directing that info to Alina. I believe in amending the soil the way mother nature does--from the top down by application of organic material to the surface of the soil and allowing decompostion, rain, and earthworms to till it in.

  • filix
    16 years ago

    nckvilledudes not amending the soil to a hole so not to encourage pot bound like plants is good pratice. I wonder why Edith mallek "spelling"? encouraged it? Because IMHO it's a great book. My sister has gravel for soil. I told her in this case go with a raised bed. Then you don't even have to deal with what you have for soil.Then you can amend to your hearts content. filix.

  • janetpetiole
    16 years ago

    It seems as if early every garden writer suggests amending the planting hole. I think one reason why it is recommended so much is an attempt to quickly get the soil closer to what it is like in nature. The problem with that is it's impossible to achieve hundreds of years of organics being laid down, with a bag of poo. Another reason is that it works for annual crops. It helps keep the soil loose and adds nutrients back into the depleted soil. If I had a garden plot I would till in amendments every fall because it has been proven to work.

  • alina_1
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    In fact, I did not say about amending soil either :0)
    I said that I try to dig the big hole, just to remove stones, bricks etc. And loosen our heavy clay soil a little. I do amend it slightly, because our soil is very sticky and heavy. I planted 10 shrubs there recently and I found only 2 worms. Freshly planted plants almost have no chance to survive in it without airation. I gradually reduce the amount of organic amendments from the plant to the hole's border. I also plan to use lazagna method on this bed.

  • nckvilledudes
    16 years ago

    Sorry Alina, misinterpreted what was written! ;) If I add much of anything to a hole it is pine bark soil conditioner. Gardening in clay is not all that bad--I live in a state that has been agricultural for many years and the farmers have never had issues raising crops in it. Clay has great moisture holding capacity and it contains loads of nutrients and minerals. The downfall is that the aeration can be lousy if you don't add organics since no organics mean few to no earthworms. It tends to crust over during periods of drought, especially if there is no mulch present to help slow the evaporation of water and prevent the crusting over. It is a bear to get rehydrated once it does dry out. Again, mulch and organics can help with that but they can be spread over a large surface instead of being placed directly in a hole.

    Filix, agree wholeheartedly. Don't know why everyone recommends overly amending the planting holes unless you are lucky enough to live in an area where the native soil is already fairly well amended by Mother Nature and you just want some extra tilth in the given hole.

    As to why Edith Malek encourages it, perhaps she is lucky enough to have a garden that has great soil in it to begin with or she is just repeating what has been said time and time again. I guess the best policy is just to read the info and take what works for you from it and discard what doesn't work for you. Then again, it may be misinformation since the general guidelines as to whether to amend a planting hole for any plant has changed from time to time in my lifetime!

    Adding loads of organic material to a bed is another issue altogether since the plants' roots can spread out into a larger area and the larger area will allow better drainage, unlike a hole which fills up like a swimming pool.

  • janetpetiole
    16 years ago

    Alina, you know your soil best, so if you feel better about amending when you plant perennials, then continue to do it. Although I'm sure it happens, not every planting hole is going to act as a water catching basin. We can't possibly know what is going on underground, and besides, most plants can tolerate a brief flooding. If a soil is always wet from natural underground water or whatever, then I'd make raised beds or only plant what can tolerate being in wet soil all time. I live in an area where the soil freezes deeply, I have amended nearly every planting hole, but haven't lost anymore plants over winter than anyone else does. But, I live in an area where we can have several freeze/thaw cycles in one winter, which helps to break up the soil. The other thing that was mentioned is that the plants roots won't leave the amended hole, but I've moved nearly all of my plants and have yet to see one that stayed in the confines of the planting hole, well, except for the azalea that I dug out yesterday, but I had no business trying to grow an azalea in very sweet soil anyway. All of this is purely anecdotal, I have no scientific proof to back up why my plants survive and even thrive, but I do know that whatever we do individually, our gardens seem to thrive despite us.

    Something that I didn't say in an earlier post, was that I have an area in my yard that I still amend for some perennials. We had a drainage pipe put in a few years ago, which was laid 6 feet down. What came up from the bottom was sticky, smelly pure clay. A lot of my beautiful top soil ended up in the bottom of the trench with a lot of the anaerobic clay on top. To make matters worse, the soil was compressed from the heavy equipment. The anti-till people told me not to till, because I would ruin the soil structure. Never mind that it was already non-existent. I was even told to plant cover crops on the entire area, until the soil was back to normal. The area was about 12 feet deep, and ran from the back corner of the lot to the street. Confused by all the advice, however well-meaning it may have been, I decided to visit one of my favorite nurseries and talk to someone about my situation. That was the best thing I could have done, and maybe it would be helpful for you too. Perhaps take a soil sample with you and ask a horticulturist.

    The absolute best thing you can do for your garden is to collect as many leaves as you can this fall and either pulverized them with the lawn mower (a bagger attachment makes this easy to move to the garden) or invest in a leaf vac. Put a good three to four inches of pulverized leaves, grass clippings are good too but spread out well, on your soil and by late spring, you will be hard-pressed to find a piece of leaf. I do this every year, even taking leaves from my neighbors, and am happy to say that the soil that was nearly impossible to plant in is coming back nicely.

  • alina_1
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Janet,
    Thanks for all your help. Technically, I am a first time gardener. We've bought our first single family home 3 months ago. I had a container garden and a tiny flower bed in our townhome for several years. I read a lot about gardening, but real people's live examples and explanations are better than hours of reading sometimes. Your and Miguel's comments helped me a lot.
    The bed I am working on right now is very long. It consists of several distinct areas: from full sun to almost full shade. The soil is also very different. On the new part (former lawn) it is absolutely anaerobic heavy clay with terrible drainage. The shadiest part is not bad at all. I was digging there yesterday and found several earthworms.
    Funny that you mentioned spreading leaves and grass clips over the ground: that is exactly what I am going to do with this bed, especially with pure clay part of it. I am going to add a newspaper layer (lasagna method) also. I am glad that it worked for you.

  • janetpetiole
    16 years ago

    How exciting for you to be in your first home! Hearing that really makes me smile.

    I am sure you will do fine with your project, and by spring, you'll wonder where all the earthworms came from.

  • alina_1
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Thanks Janet,
    This is a little overwhelming, but definitely exciting. I keep my fingers crossed. Hope my newly planted babies will survive and thrive eventually.

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