Delaetii have the typical roundish bodies and may be considered more attractive. The congragatum, fissum and ringens bodies look more like fingers, nothing special in my opinion.

Argy testiculare has wonderful flowers. Argy subalbum and some framesii's look like mini-delaetiis, and pearsonii are like larger delaetiis's with egg-shaped bodies.

The purple and pink flowers on any of the species are brilliantly colored.

Why not get them all, they do not take up a lot of room. I have gotten better germination when the temps have cooled down, especially at night, 50's F works.

Well, I was planning to get all the different species. I was just trying to figure out which of each one to get since pictures of the specific varieties are hard to come by online.

I guess it'll have to come down to random selection based on flower color for now. I'm sure I'll end up with all of them eventually, but wanted to give the illusion of control for just a little while.

Incidentally, do you have a good place to get small (2" or 3") clay pots in NYC? I just got back from the HoDePo on 23rd St. and the smallest size they carry there is 4".

I would not recommend small clay pots for several reasons (from my own experience):

They tip over easily, dry out too quickly, and don't hold enough soil and moisture to make any plant happy for too long.

You're much better off planting several small succulents or seedlings into a larger pot, it is easier to control moisture.

I always thought that the best pots for cacti/ succulents are 4-5" square plastic pots, because they can be placed right up against each other without wasting room. It also is helpful in keeping the soil cool if the pots are out in the sun

Also, roots tend to stick to clay so when it's time to repot, you end up damaging the roots.

But if you still really want small clay pots, you may want to try those shops in the flower district, 28th Street b/w 6th and 7th. The Home Depot on 23rd is really more like Home Depot Expo, it caters to the city crowd, not much variety garden-wise.

Thanks, xerophyte, you're a genius! That would neatly solve both my flowerpot problem and my decision-making problem: instead of individuals in tiny pots, I could put one species per larger pot, with a few varieties in each, and build my collection that way. And I already have a bunch of 4" pots. And it'd be better for the plants, to boot. Brilliant!

FWIW, I sent my spouse up to the flower district a couple of days ago, but he reported finding very little for growing plants, mostly just stuff for arranging flowers. (He may have looked in the wrong places, but I believe he gave it the ol' college try.) My next plan was to take the bus out to the burbs and go to a Michael's or A.C. Moore for the little pots. But your way is totally better.

Thank you.

Thanks for the compliment, I am far from a genius, but what I do have is experience and a little wisdom that comes along with that.

Most argies remain single-bodied, so you can have a nice collection in even a small pot, you can probably fit about about 5 adults in a 4" pot.

Which book did you order?

This article is the best thing you can read if you are interested in Mesembs:
Steven Hammer's Mesemb Advice from CSSA

Good luck!

I did read that, bookmarked it, and know I'll be reading it again and again. That guy really seems to know his stuff, and has the skills to get the knowledge across in a really clear way. It's also nice to have a modern source of information; so many of the books I see out there are from decades ago. (I guess plants haven't changed so much, though, now that I think about it, I'm just used to the Information Age and like stuff that can be updated daily!)

The book I got was "Growing the Mesembs" by Ed Storms.

What do you think about combining lithops the same way?

I grow Argyrodermas in small pots. Drying out too quick has never been an issue even in the recent record heat. Water in the evenings if you feel all the water is evaporating during the day. Overwatering is a far more likely problem with Argyrodermas, you can always water again in a few days if they need more.

The little clay pots do have very small bases but I tend to put all my small pots in trays so they don't fall over. I use the tiny clay pots for species that need only very tiny amounts of water at certain times, like Conophytums in the early summer. Mixing clay and plastic can be tricky, clay pots need watering quite a bit more often, or an awful lot more often in very hot sun. Square pots are nice but not always easy to find. I will plant in any pot that isn't excessively deep, again "standard" pots are deeper than I like. Argyrodermas have fine spreading root systems and sticking a small one in a deep pot is asking for trouble. Plan on getting a nice half-height or so pot big enough that you can leave it alone almost forever, Argyrodermas never get very big.

Multiple mesembs in a pot is nice but not always the easiest. Different plants will need different amounts of water. It can be frustrating to watch one plant shrivelling while another is fit to burst. Usually manageable for the same species, even different Argyrodermas tend to be very similar. Watch out with Lithops, water needs vary hugely. Only group together similar species.

I agree on the finger-shaped Argies, they don't do it for me. The little silver spheres are much nicer. I find it hard to tell them all apart, one silver sphere is much like another. The flower colours vary but again there is only a limited selection. A. testiculare is the one standout.

Urk. I see a large learning curve looming before me.

Of the following Lithops types, which ones would you call "similar"? I just got a "baker's dozen" and planted them three or four to a pot, as divided below. Are any of these combinations likely to be trouble?

aucampiae
bromfieldii
dorotheae
---
fulviceps
halii
karasmontana
---
pseudotruncatella
schwantesii
wernerii

There are also three types of lesliei which I put in a pot by themselves.

s_n_b

Square pots can be gotten online easily here in the US, but I suppose maybe not so easy in the UK? I've tried plastic and clay, and in my neck of the woods in NYC, the soil in any small pot tends to become very dry very quickly during our typical hot summers.

You're right about growing small plants in large amounts of soil, potentially a problem with moisture. My own strategy has been to fill in the spots between plants with big chunks of marble, and filling in those gaps with soil, therefore eliminating dampness around the necks of the plants and reducing the soil volume that would be holding moisture.

Here are 2 examples, 1 with Argies, the other with Gibbaeum

{{gwi:604603}}
{{gwi:604605}}

About the Lithops compatibility, they are much trickier to plant in groups than Argies because they do not all have uniform requirements...karasmontana, for example, grows and flowers for me typically in November, whereas a species like pseudotruncatella or aucampiae can flower and need water in August, while schwantesii are more sensitive to watering than the others (they can rot quickly). Lesliei might be the easiest Lithops, they can be watered during the summer.

The three lesliei together I can go with :)

Did you group them by location? Good idea but close doesn't always match. Or by flower colour? Another possibility for grouping, the different flower colours tend to flower at the same time and are often considered to be closely related.

I don't think the first three match well. L. aucampiae grows like L. lesliei, vigorous and likes summer water. L. bromfieldii a little less so and L. dorotheae not at all. L. hallii might be closer but still not a good match. L. dorotheae is gorgeous when grown well but I think it will get overwatered in a pot with L. aucampiae.

The second group might work. L. karasmontana consists of two distinct groups. The subspecies eberlanzii and bella have particularly low water needs and respond very badly to being overwatered especially out of their main growing season. And it is particularly easy to water them too late in the year because they flower quite late. Considering L. karasmontana ssp bella is such a widely grown Lithops it is surprisingly easy to grow a really horrible one. On the plus side, it does seem to survive poor treatment, it just does nasty things like stacking and growing too tall. L. karasmontana ssp karasmontana is more similar to L. hallii but still doesn't need so much water. L. fulviceps behaves better with more water and it flowers a little earlier which is convenient in climates with cold dark winters.

The last group look like a good match on paper, all from central Namibia, but I don't think it will work in practice. L. pseudotruncatella is a large species which grows and flowers particularly early in summer. L. werneri is also quite early but is much smaller. Maybe these two will go together, maybe not. Smaller Lithops in general need more water. L. schwantesii is a more typical autumn-flowering Lithops, would go well with L. fulviceps. I like to stop watering L. pseudotruncatella completely after it flowers which can be as early as the end of July, otherwise it tends to still be very plump in spring when it is trying to grow new leaves. That treatment really wouldn't be good for L. schwantesii and not so great for L. werneri.

If they are planted already then maybe you should observe them and see how they grow. I think your groupings can be grown together with care, Lithops are quite adaptable to their conditions. Bear in mind the possible incompatibilities and see what happens, if things look really bad then you can always replant them in the spring.

XNYC, square plastic pots are readily available here by mail order but you don't see them in standard retail outlets. "No demand" is the excuse, big business ignoring the customer is the real reason ;) And just tonight I was given a square saucer to match a 3" square pot. Apparently no longer manufactured in the UK but still available from Germany. Now, square clay pots, they are quite rare ...

Honestly, they are grouped by alphabetical order. I only got them today and popped them into pots just a few hours ago; I think if I am going to pull them out and rearrange them, I might as well do it now before they get comfortable.

So, I guess the leslei are ok, but I'm not sure to do with the other ten. (There are two schwantesii, one gebseri and one marthae.)

I was all set to try to match them based on water needs, and I'd gotten as far as thinking I'd do
aucampiae
fulviceps
schwantesii ?and maybe even werneri and halii?in one pot and
dorotheae
bromfieldii
karasmontana in another. Not sure about pseudotruncatella..

but you've both introduced the whole other dimension of timing and now I'm boggled. Would you say the timing of the flowering trumps their water needs?

Do you think any of these guys would be happy bedfellows? I'm prepared to bite the bullet and pot them all up separately, but it just seems like it'd be absurd to have one cute little lithops all alone in a four-inch pot.

Gosh, I've got a lot to learn. Can you recommend a book so I could get a bit of a clue about this stuff?

Hi Binki,
I really am not the one to give any advice on Lithops but I found the link I am posting helpful.

You should also listen to Shrubs n Bulbs also, as he really knows these little plants well.

BTW I asked my local nursery about square clay pots and he said that they would be excessively expensive.
Ian

Here is a link that might be useful: Lithops website

I can get clay pots all that you would want, however shipping them to you would be very costly. Go to yard sales, if there are 99 cent stores go to them. Watch for sales at Michael's if you happen to have that chain store. If you are in a pinch, I can get them and mail them out. I recently paid $1.29 for a 5" round bulb pot. (low) Square clay are very expensive. I'll check out and find out how much the 3-4" round pots cost. Norma

Ah, thanks, Ian. I think I've read the entire Internet at this point, and I'm coming up frustrated. Lots of sites, including that one, have general care instructions, but it's the specific knowledge of which varieties flower when, and their relative water needs, to which shrubs_n_bulbs alludes, that I can't find. I hope it's in the book I ordered, and I hope that book gets here before I damage these poor defenseless plants... or I hope s_n_b gets back here soon!

In any case, I ain't waterin' NOBODY until I know for sure.

(I may go on a scouting trip to Michael's tomorrow; thanks, dufflebag!)

I get some 3" clay pots in Walmart last week, they also have smaller (2.8"?) pots on sale.

God luck !

The reason you can't find info on relative water needs is because there are too many variables to come up with a consensus - my plants will need watering at different times from your plants, and from the same species in the UK or anywhere else!

The best way to know is by observing your plants, and you will learn this over time - it's really the only way. Just make sure they get as much light and fresh air you can give them. When it comes to Lithops there are no strict rules, only guidelines. It's part of the learning curve, but it's alot of fun along the way, with some deaths of plants which is to be expected in the beginning. I would recommend try growing a bunch from seed, very cheap and easy when you get the hang of it, you can mix and match and experiment all you want!

The best book I have seen by far regarding Lithops is the one from Steve Hammer, called Lithops Treasures of the Veld, it's about $40 softcover online, well worth it. The article I posted previously is also excellent.

There is a Yahoo! Group on Mesembs, you can join for free and search through the posts and links there for info as well

Ok, I'm a little more relaxed now. I thnk I will rearrange them today like I posted earlier, trying to follow the water needs as per shrubs_n_bulbs' post above. I've joined that yahoogroup and will go back through the links there, thank you for reminding me. I'll also get that Steve Hammer book; that web essay you linked earlier was fantastic. Thank you thank you thank you.

I would love to just pot them all up separately but I'm having a devil of a time finding little pots in the big city. We don't have Walmarts around here, nor Michael's, I've learned. There is a crafts store called A.C. Moore that I think I can get a bus to; I can't tell from their website if they have little terracotta pots there but I'm hoping they will.

It's so frustrating. On the Internet there are a million sites that will tell you how to make a cute kitten out of a bunch of flowerpots, but none of them sell the little pots! One even says "we don't sell the plain pots online, because you can get them anywhere." Grr! I never thought of NYC as "nowhere" before.

Thank you all so much for your patience.

A-HA!
I think I found the site I was looking for. Based on the information there, I'm thinking these groupings will work:
pot 1: lesliei (high moisture, late spring-fall)
pot 2: aucampiae and pseudotruncatella (highish moisture, summer-fall)
pot 3: bromfieldii, halii, and fulviceps? (lower moisture, late summer-early fall)
pot 4: dorotheae and karasmontana (very low moisture, late summer-early fall)
pot 5: schwantesii and werneri (lowish moisture, summer-fall)

Whaddya say? Do you see any major issues there?
Am I totally off base for using those charts? In a few cases they seem to say the exact opposite of what shrubs_n_bulbs says up above.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lithops rainfall charts

Someone has done a lot of work on rainfall charts.
I seem to recall that in some areas the mesembs get a lot of their moisture requirements from fog rather than rain as such. Fog wouldn't show up in the rainfall records. Also fog can be very local and not show up on weather station data.
So I would treat such records with caution.

It is also worth recalling that Shrubs n Bulbs is living in the north of England and that you are in Noo Joisey.

It is really a matter of observing your plants, in your location.

BTW this morning I put my few Lithops out for the day and I saw a squirrel scampering about on the deck. I canÂt recall seeing squirrels on my deck before. They can check out the Opuntia all they like but I donÂt want them touching the Lithops.
Ian

The Lithops species we are talking about all come from places where there is relatively heavy "summer" rainfall. Condensation does occur at those locations but the contribution is irrelevant during the main growing seasons. Condensation may be a valuable resource during the dry season in some cases. Actual fog is extremely rare so far from the coast, although a few other Lithops species occur firmly within the fog belt and a couple are from areas with essentially zero true rainfall.

Perhaps I should have linked to my rainfall chart pages before ;) A lot of work did indeed go into them, its not easy tracking down rainfall data for locations that are pretty much uninhabited! Your groupings are probably as good as any you could come up with for mixed species plantings, see how they go.

Watch out for Lithops in the open, they are edible and attractive to a variety of creatures including slugs, mice, and birds.

Those were YOUR rainfall charts?!? D'OH! And there I thought I'd found a whole independent set of data to use! Well. I think you sure take the prize for Internet Expert on this topic...

I am going to go with those groupings and hope for the best. I know the question is pretty much unanswerable, but I wanted to get off on a good foot if at all possible.

Thanks again for the info and forbearance. I'll try not to post any more silly questions...

at least until my argies arrive...

Binki

Rainfall charts don't have much value - after reading Steve Hammer's book you will understand better why that is so. Basically, the actual rainfall in most of these areas is not enough to sustain life, however, Lithops and other plants that have adapted to these harsh climates are never found out in the open, instead they grow in nooks and crannies here and there because those areas tend to accumulate more moisture and are also protected from the hot sun;

So while the data may state 1 inch of rain in a particular month, it could really be much more than 1 inch of available moisture in a particular microclimate. Also, if for example it rains 2 inches in a month, is that 2 inches in 1 day or was it a quarter inch on 4 separate days - same amount but in reality a huge difference.

I water my Lithops every week, the only thing I change is the actual amount - during the heat of the summer it is barely a light sprinkle, during fall when buds are forming I water heavily, when it is cold in the dead of winter, watering is nothing more than a light spray until the spring when the new bodies are poking through, and then the amount of water is more until it gets hot at night and the plants are most susceptible to rot because they become dormant.

Keep in mind that in nature, the roots can penetrate deeper for water, and many of the habitable areas are covered with quartz rock which is translucent and keeps heat away, so the soil remains cool - in a pot, the plants do not really have the luxury of sending out deep roots or especially of keeping cool in the sun. Despite all these things, Lithops are so adaptable it's amazing. If you notice a plant in one of your groupings needs more or less water, it can be transplanted pretty easily, so go ahead and give it a try.

The Ed Storms book is nice but his advice is based on his growing his plants in hot Texas, where summers are brutal.

Rainfall charts don't have much value

I'm sorry you feel that way, but the behaviour of all mesemb species most certainly are highly correlated with the climate in their natural habitats and these simple monthly average rainfall charts are the first level of representing that climate. There are many other aspects providing some variation on these overall patterns: rain shadows and locally enhanced precipitation in mountainous areas; variability of rainfall events in different seasons; effective water availability based both on rainfall levels and seasonal temperatures; etc, but a simple overview of rainfall quantities and timing is the first thing to look at and probably as far as you need to dig most of the time. None of these local factors is going to mean a plant in a winter rainfall area is a high summer grower, or a plant that gets over 100mm of rain each month in habitat will thrive on a few light sprays.

For a slightly more detailed overview on the climates in different regions of southern Africa, which should help your understanding of mesemb growth patterns, look at the charts in the Southern Africa Climate Regions page. Or read my article in the MSG Bulletin to get some brief descriptions that include whether condensation is an important factor, whether the rainfall is consistent drizzle, or intermittent thunderstorms, etc. I highly recommend you take a look at Achim Hecktheuer's climate pages, even just the first two or three maps will give you an invaluable insight into when and where rain falls in South Africa.

Feel free to ignore all that if you want, but I think you can be a better grower by knowing which plants want water pouring on them with a bucket every month or two, which like a spray every day, which will be solidly dormant in summer, and which will grow year round if you treat them right.

s_n_b

The meaning behind my statement that rainfall charts don't have much value was that one should not look at how much it rains in a town 10km from a Lithops locale and then water their plants based on that data. The rainfall patterns will, however, definitely give one an idea of seasonal precipitation patterns.

But from what I've read (I've never been to SA), climate can change from one hill to the next, and on different elevations. A conophytum growing within vicinity of a Lithops is not going to do well for long if planted in the same pot, even though they are both experiencing the same "rainfall", no?

Some areas receive 0 precipitation, but on some nights the fogs are so dense that the soil is soaked. Overall, many mesembs receive more precipitation than it seems - I know you know this, you obviously know what you're talking about, but many other readers may not, I just wouldn't want someone to get caught up in the numbers.

When I first started with mesembs maybe 10 yrs ago, I was preoccupied with the weather patterns, trying to duplicate them. Today, I have come to realize that the best way to grow these plants is to watch them for their signals. I have raised dozens of plants from seed, into maturity, and am able to flower even the shiest species like some of the Gibbaeum, so I consider myself to be a good grower already, the advice I give on this forum is based on my experience only, everyone does things just a little bit differently, that's the beauty and essence of the art of horticulture.

By the way, here's a little animation I once created back when I was into the whole rainfall pattern phenomenon...for what it's worth:

pretty neat, ain't it?

These little guys will be in a fairly hot greenhouse (if you have a good pair of binoculars and go up on the Empire State Building, you can see it...if you have a REALLY good pair of binoculars, let me know if they need water, ok?) so the Texas stuff isn't as un-useful as you might think. There's always a fan going, and all the windows are open in the summertime, but it can get pretty hot up there.

I was using the rainfall charts just to try to get a vague idea of which ones to put in pots together; since those were about the only hard numbers I could find to differentiate the little guys, those were the ones I used. I don't think I'll try to duplicate their African conditions here!

How long do you reckon I should wait before giving them any water? I understand their roots are dried out and shocked from all the moving around, but one or two of them are kind of wrinkly already. Maybe in a few days when it's not so gray and cloudy?

Once I know where they are in their cycle this will get easier, I know, but right now they're all shocked and interrupted and I'm not sure how to handle them.

i would keep them away from direct sun for about 2 weeks, then acclimate them to the sun over a 1-2 week period and water lightly

i also keep my plants in an inefficient greenhouse whose main function is to keep out unwanted rain - it gets to 125F on a hot sunny day, even with 60% reflective shade cloth and a fan!

with the temps cooling down a bit nowadays, they will begin to perk up - the greenhouse works very nicely in the spring and fall when the plants are most active...days remain warm and dry inside even if it's chilly outside, and the nights are nice and cool with heavy condensation in the AM, especially since I live a few 100 ft from the ocean.

All my mesembs have survived temps down to about 28F, even snow cover (before I had a greenhouse, and not on purpose)

Sounds like a fine plan to me.
Thank you.

XNYC, that old Conophytums growing in the same place Lithops "paradox" is a good one. The instant assumption is that Conophytums are winter growers and Lithops are summer growers so something must be very weird. Then people start to make up explanations like the Conophytums must be growing in shady wet cracks and the Lithops are growing out on the tops of hills, etc. But in some cases at least, Lithops and Conophytums do grow in exactly the same patch of gravel. And some people do grow them in the same pot with the same watering.

Part of the explanation is that Conophytums are not obligate winter growers any more than Lithops are obligate summer growers, both are adaptable and Lithops are especially adaptable. My Conophytums run three or four months behind a typical Lithops, only a couple of months behind L. optica. Some of this is due to the way they are treated in cultivation, we water Lithops as soon as the old leaves are dry but we keep Conophytums quite dry until late summer. If you leave Lithops virtually dry then they will sit dormant through the summer alongside the Conophytums and this is what happens to those species that grow with Conophytums in the wild. Some Lithops species will actually sit inside a dried sheath like a Conophytum, more commonly those nasty "stacking" species like L. optica and L. karasmontana ssp bella will very slowly consume the old leaves while waiting for wetter conditions in autumn. Other species like L. divergens and L. meyeri tend to just wrinkle up and shrink below ground level during summer. Those winter rainfall Lithops species will grow through autumn and well into winter, while in England we are better off growing them in summer when we have a bit of sun ;)

Nice work. Now can you colour in those white bits that actually mean loads and loads of rain so that I can distinguish them from the white bits that mean no rain at all? LOL

Maybe its worth saying something about those Argyrodermas that we started off with. All Argyroderma species come from a very small area and live in very similar conditions of quartz gravel fields. Rainfall is low and almost entirely winter drizzles, but it is worth remembering that dew provides as much as half the total water supply and occurs on almost every day of the year, so their is no need to keep Argies totally dry in summer.

And yes, Argodermas and Lithops do occasionally share the same patches of gravel!

Ok, all is well and the plants look pretty okay despite the cruddy rainy weather we've been having. Some are a little shrively, some are nice and plump, but I'm not watering anybody until my books come in.

I'm just curious about one very basic thing: three of the argyrodermas have new leaves starting, just the tip of a little tongue sticking out in the cleft between the current leaves. Does this mean a flower is coming or has flowering time already come and gone?

It definitely could be a flower, you'll know as it comes up more, the buds will look more like multiple leaves, not just a pair - usually when new leaves are forming the older ones will start to shrivel and turn yellowish, and with Argies this usually happens in the spring, they follow a similar pattern to Lithops, so there's a good chance it is a bud. Argies are sippers, they like frequent light waterings, and this is crucial for continued bud development - if they dry out too much the flowers may abort.

Hm. Do you think I should give them a little spritz? I thought the recent moist gray weather would make that a bad idea.

The growth is most similar to the one at about 5:00 in the linked picture at this point. I'm very excited to see what happens next!

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:604601}}

"tip of a little tongue sticking out" sounds exactly like a bud! You'll see soon enough, buds develop fast while new leaves will come through much more stedily.

Normally I'd be happy to spray an Argyroderma at any time although I try to restrict it to when it is at least bright if not sunny. But you just repotted your plants, I imagine? Don't water, leave it week minimum, or even two. Mostly you won't have problems, but just occasionally you'll have a broken root or some minor damage that will rot if you get it wet, so why take the risk. Avoid very strong sun for the same period, plants with compromised root systems and dry soil are more sensitive to scorching or overheating. Again, not very likely with an Argyroderma in September, but a week of afternoon shade won't do any harm. As for the bud, if it has survived being bare-rooted and sent through the USPS then it can survive a week in dry soil :)

Yeah, since you just potted it into it's new home, there is a period of shock that the plant needs to go through but it should turn out fine. Keep away from midday sun for about a week, and there's generally no harm in spraying the leaves in the AM as a source of moisture until some rootlets start to form in the next few weeks - with a little TLC the flower bud should proceed to flower formation although it may be stunted from being homesick :-)

Ok, maybe I'll give the driest ones a wee spritz tomorrow, but nothing soaky. I won't go near the roots, poor things. I've got them down in a bright spot where it's not too sunny. They're on stairs, so I can move them up one step at a time! I wasn't going to water them for at least another week, but two of the buds weren't showing a couple days ago and they are now, so I take that to mean they're not too terribly traumatized after the move.

Can I just say for the record how cute they are? These guys are going to force me to get a camera I can't afford...force! force, I say!

the next time you receive plants in the mail, it's easy to soak them in water for up to 24 hrs, then you can plant them without worrying about them drying up for a couple of weeks while the new roots are forming.

Ah, good to know for next time.

(Wait. Why are we all assuming there'll be a next time? Surely I have plenty already...)

There's always a next time, you can bet your bottom dollar on that

It's an addiction for which there is no cure