Rick, they grow all over the place here in Camarillo. I suspect there is a non climatological factor contributing to your failure.

Ryan

*non climatological factor*

Hee hee, it's the factor between my ears no doubt!

I'm imprinted with 30 years South Florida gardening experience, I'm still trying to figure out the ropes here in San Diego. I'm making every possible mistake I think. Actually this is a commercial Poinsettia growing region (Ecke) but they are in greenhouses, and these growers claim the poinsettias can't survive below 50 degrees. I had assumed that was my problem. But maybe that's just their genetically inbred, coddled cultivars, and what I need to find is a "hard" outdoor poinsettia.

Thanks,

Rick

Pianodoctor, you are right about the coddled cultivars of poinsettias -- I recently read an article that the original strains of these were hardier and the ones we buy at the holidays can't even take a slight draft.

I recently moved to the Berkeley area from San Diego, and while it is generally cooler, the difference is less than 10 degrees overall, and in the winter, when cold is a concern for these tropicals, the average low temps are about the same. The reason is that in the Bay Area, we actually have a true mediterranean climate with a predicatable, even rainy and dry season (unlike SD, which is either desert dry or flooding depending on the year), so during the winter, we often get enough breeze or cloud cover at night to keep the temps up, while SD has more clear nights and it gets surprisingly cool at night during that time of year.

So really the difference in climate is not the degree or severity of cold, which is the main measure of hardiness (both SD and Berkeley are probably in USDA ZOne 10a), but Berkeley gets fewer hot days (though just enough for these tropicals).

Next time you're in town, check out the Lakeside Garden Center at Lake Merritt in Oakland, where there is an amazing Palmatum with many unusual palm and tropical species outdoors, including huge fishtail palms (one just flowered and is dying off as a result) and a bunch of other things you might not expect to see.

I guess you take these things for granted, there is a huge pointsettia growing in SLO, it's been there for years. I know SLO is colder than SF area in the winter. Brugs grow there too.

I have one outside in a pot and it's still blooming.
I"m in Oceanside along the coast.
Kathi

My neighbor has one next to their house, I am just next door in El Cerrito. It is huge but I think it looks atrocious (leggy and just plain ugly!)

We bought an old house in Watsonville, four miles from the beach of the Monterey bay, in 1960. It had a pointsettia planted there by the previous owner, years before. When we sold the house in 1998 it was still going strong. In 1990, December the temperature got to 14 degrees and it frosted to the ground. After missing a year completely it came back the next and was as big as ever growing to 8 feet by Christmas. After the bloom I would cut it down to about 2 feet. By July it would be up to about 5 feet and I cut it back to three feet. This caused branching and much more bloom in the winter. Al

Growing up in coastal Orange County (Westminster) we had two Pointsettia trees that grew taller than the house. I remember them well because I hated when mom made me go out and prune tham because I would be covered with that sticky white sap! They were pretty though with profusion of bright red leaves. (They were planted against the house on the East-facing side).

Rick,
I just drove by one blooming in Berkeley today, and yes it is in full bloom, probably about 10 feet tall and 100's of blooms, or more correctly, colorful bracts. They do tend to look abit rangy if they aren't tip pinched to create more branching. The hype about not tolerating temps below 50F in incorrect, but they do need a south facing wall and extra heat from building mass to bloom here; out in the middle of the garden they wouldn't bloom at all with our generally cool temps. I would guesstimate that they are perfectly fine with short dips down into the mid 30'sF, which is probably what they are subjected to in average winters here in Berkeley. I have never seen one blooming in any location other than a southfacing wall here...

They are in their glory in high elevation tropical areas, I remember bicycling back to Ubud in Bali from the top of the central volcano, and the roadside was lined with 25 foot tall trees massively in bloom at all seasons as the day and night photoperiod are nearly equal at Bali's latitude. And even in Bali, at this elevation, it certainly does get below 50F at night in winter, although probably never much below 40F.

If you were to try them out again, give them excellent drainage and fertile soil, and water just enough to keep them happy, and plant them in a wind protected south side of your house, and pinch tip all year long until late September. Personally, I think they are more of an oddity here in Berkeley than a truly must have plant, but I do get a kick out of seeing them bloom here! On the other hand, I am trying out some Euphorbia cotinifolia plants along a south facing balcony this winter to see if I can keep them alive. I know it can be done, but I remember my Mexican nighbor's plant along the street being quite dead by the time February came around. I just couldn't resist the beautiful deep red foliage against the jade green stucco of my newly remodeled house, and the "Sticks on Fire" Euphorbia tirucallii is just as much a gamble without equal protection from the rains and cold...

I passed one today and nearly wrecked the car...
If you have a chance, drive down Cornell Street in Albany (just north of Berkeley, a few blocks north of Gilman). Cornell Avenue, just north of the intersection of Dartmouth. North side (right hand side). Huge!
Amanda 'romando'

Are there any "tropical niches" in the Inland East Bay area that you know of? I am always on the lookout for giant bird of paradise, bananas, queen, king, and kentia palms, and plumerias!

Hm, I have not seen plumerias, although I know a guy in Orinda who grows them -- and Orinda is NOT a "tropical niche" but more of a frost pocket I'd say. He has a lot of tree canopy though, and a deep creek canyon below that help take the chill off.

Queen palms are everywhere though -- if you've ever been to Home Depot in Concord in spring, they sell them by the truckloads. They are very hardy actually. Diablo Tropicals and Perez Nursery in Brentwood have acres and acres of queen palms in the ground in their growing yards. I believe they take much colder temps than we ever get here. There are some gigantic old ones outside of Denny's in Pleasant Hill, and we have 12 of them in our garden. I think queens have gotten really popular in the last 5 years because they are fast growing and cheap. In our neighborhood, Merlot Nursery in Walnut Creek sells tons of the them too, and a lot of the new homes in the nearby Rancho Paraiso neighborhood have them. I'd say there are dozens and dozens of them in the neighborhood nearby. Just on our street, there are about 4 houses that have them, although often hidden in the back yard by the pool. But I see them here and there all over the place in Concord, PLeasant Hill, Walnut Creek, etc.

Here is a link to some of our garden pix, although they are several years old -- the queen palms have gotten much fatter trunks by now. http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/kerrican2001/slideshow?.dir=/3063&.src=ph

Giant bird of paradise is also not that hard to grow. Check out the landscaping at the Elephant Bar restaurant in Concord on Willow Pass Road. It's all queen palms, giant bird of paradise, and they used to have Ensete ventricosum but cut them down after they bloomed. They may also have tropical hibiscus, but I don't remember. And Waterworld USA in Concord has lots of queens.

Kings are more sensitive, but I see them in the Fremont Hills (but that's marginally "inland" really) and of course in the coastal east bay.

Kentias I hear are hardier than Kings but get leaf burn in hot weather, so not good inland.

You should drive towards the north gate of Mt. Diablo and just head into some of the neighborhoods where you can see lots of tropicals. I'd say queen palms, jacaranda, bougainvillea, pygmy date palm are all popular, though still small because the landscapes are fairly new and not mature. There is also a HUGE phoenix reclinata clump hidden in the back of an old house. In addition, we happen to grow sapote, macadamia (flowers last year for the first time but no fruit yet -- maybe 2006!), avocado, loads of citrus, ornamental bananas, strawberry guava, several varieties of palms, CHinese hibiscus, and lots of other low-maintenance tropicals. I love tropicals because they always look good and need almost no maintenance (except the bougainvilleas need trimming).

You are definitely treading on dangerous ground when planting out many of these plants in Sunset zone 15 conditions inland. I wouldn't hesitate to grow the hardiest bananas such as Musella lasiocarpa, Musa basjoo and Ensete ventricosum in these areas, as they can freeze their tops and come back quickly. The Giant Bird of Paradise will quickly freeze all top growth at 30F, and will regrow if temps don't drop much below 25F and the plant is somewhat sheltered so that the basal roots don't freeze. I wouldn't want to look at the dead growth all winter myself, so would be more inclined to only use it under protected overhangs against a house wall, or directly under dense evergreens on a slope where cold air would drain away. You should talk to Greg, the owner of Golden Gate Palms out in Richmond off 580 if you are really interested in tropicals for the inner east bay, as he is one of those designers/contractors/nurserymen that is pushing this envelope. I also know of a fellow landscape designer, Kristen Yanker-Hansen who lives in Danville, and grows alot of subtropicals in her own garden, but is willing to risk total melt-down of foliage and perhaps complete loss of plants with things such as Jacarandas,( she did have one bloom this summer), and grows more tender things such as Plumeria in pots that can be overwintered indoors. She has great success with many die back to the ground subtropicals such as Clerodendron ugandense, Cannas, Musas, Cestrums, etc., and I have got her started on a fairly extensive Aechmea/Billbergia bromeliad collection over the years that have done well for her planted in the shade and protection of evergreen trees or roof overhangs. I would also suggest that you check out the Ruth Bancroft Garden in Walnut Creek, to see the fabulous collection of tender plants that they grow there. They successfully grow several Tabebuia species and have a huge old Chorisia speciosa on the grounds, but this tree in particular is not really hardy in a bad freeze. The more tender succulents such as Aeoniums, Echeverias and Aloes are given overhead winter protection from rain and cold to reliably get them through the winter, and you should see the gardens in winter to see the efforts some people will go to in gardening with zonal denial.

You should also talk to people who were gardening with subtropicals in Contra Costa County during the December freezes of 1990 and again in 1998. Queen Palms were outright killed in many areas of Concord in both freezes, and things like Phoenix roebellenii, P. reclinata, Strelitzia reginae and S. nicolai were also killed outright. One must remember that even hillside areas that drain off cold air in winter will and can get down to 18F in a very bad freeze in these areas, with 22~24F lows as quite common almost every winter. These temps are deadly for things like King Palms, which were heavily damaged at 25F here in Oakland at the Lake Merritt Palmetum. Areas closer to the bay such as parts of Martinez and Concord and/or Benicia/Vallejo are much safer areas to experiment with, but even here, you are pushing the odds.

Maybe it is just me, but I wouldn't want to risk big growing expensively purchased tender trees to fairly predictable freezes. I would suggest that you stick with smaller plants that can die back to the ground and regrow quickly in summer as better choices for your area, or container grow plants that are too tender and move them under protection in the winter. Or be willing to treat things like Hibiscus rosa sinensis and Mandevillea x 'Alice Dupont' as annuals...

I have never seen the thermometer here under 31 degrees, so I'm not so sure it really gets to 22-24 degrees every winter. There are several bird of paradise plants on our street, giant bird of paradise is being planted more and more in neighborhoods, and I am seeing bananas planted next to commercial buildings as well as queen palms. The bird of paradise plants still have flowers even though there was light frost last week.

Butterfly 15,

where is your thermometer located? Any overhead protection (even a lattice type structure) can keep temperatures beneath it considerably warmer than in exposed locations.

Keep in mind that it has been 7 years since there has been a big freeze. That's plenty of time for people to forget what happened last time and for marginal tropicals to gain some size.

Ryan

Bahia, I think you are being WAY too conservative. All the queen palms I know of made it through the all time lows of 1990, and those were all-time lows. There are numerous ones in our neighborhood as well as the ones I mentioned by Denny's in Pleasant Hill. In fact, most of them had very little leaf damage. And even the ones in downtown Sac survived 17F.

Also, I know of at least several huge jacarandas, two in Walnut Crek and one in Concord, that made it through that same winter and regrew all its leaves without loss of limbs (or at least complete recovery within a few years). Ours has not suffered ANY frost damage in 3 years, and it is young, nor have any of the dozen or so in the neighborhood that have been here about 10 years.

Another guy nearby grows chorisia speciosa as well with no trouble. And I have seen the one at Ruth Bancroft Garden.

Giant Bird of Paradise seems to be bordeline -- in Concord at the Elephant Bar, it's never had any leaf burn whatsoever, and I've seen a number of ones that never seem to get burned. However, even 1 or 2 degrees can make a difference, so a poor microclimate might make the difference between success and failure.

Our hibiscus rosa-sinensis is five years old and 6 feet tall, and there are a number of very large old ones in the San Miguel subdivision of Walnut Creek that survived the 1990 freeze, and those are pink and yellow varieites. Ours is double red.

And none of these plants have any protection. I've seen the same plantings in places like Ramona, northeast of San Diego -- lots of queen palms and jacarandas, and they are at 1500 feet elevation and get into the mid 20s regularly -- colder than our spot here in Walnut Creek. And it doesn't deter anyone.

So I'd say my experience is quite the opposite -- these plants can take light frosts very well, and survive even the worst winters on record. Besides, I wouldn't NOT plant things because of all-time lows. Why waste, say, another 30 years waiting for another really bad freeze like that? And nobody plants based on record highs, which are above 110F, even though those also scorch plants. And what about record rains or record droughts? We don't plant around those either. Otherwise, we'd all have gravel yards without lawns, and keep all our plants in tubs so we could move redwoods out in the rain, back in when it's hot, cactus in reverse, tropicals out in the heat and in with the cold, and we'd all be afraid to enjoy our botanical diversity.

I know I'm overdramatizing of course, but growing queen palms or giant bird of paradise of all things is SO not "pushing the envelope." in fact, I'd call it incredibly mundane. Kings, kentias, plumerias, now you're talkin.

I don't think we are just limited to musa basjoo, musella, and ensete bananas. I have heard that the Ice Cream, Orinoco, and many other bananas will not die down, and may actually produce fruit the summer following a frosty winter if the stalk is still intact.

Hey, can I grow this tree in beverly hills? Im located on the western sea board.

Sam Milby
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