Josh, ES x SL sounds like it has great potential! Good luck with all of them. I've only done one cross this year - I haven't had much in bloom yet and I'm trying to be more selective in what seeds I produce just due to room. Looks like (so far, but we'll see for sure in a month or so) that Amalfi x Evergreen is taking, which I believe to be tet x diploid. The pod is growing well on the bloom where I used some of the Evergreen stigma fluid on the Amalfi stigma. I read about this on a posting on one of the other forums.

Alana

Hi Alana, I am not aware of this at all, not that it is a huge shock, but how does putting stigma fluid on a stigma from a different plant produce seed.....where did the male gamete come from while doing this?

I am not a crosser, but good luck to those of you that are :o) Dan

That sounds like an interesting cross Alana I hope it takes. As far as I know though just as in daylilys a diploid only can cross with a diploid same as in tets. So if you get viable seed then you might assume both are the same. Although I could be entirely off base.

Diploids can accept tetraploid pollen and produce viable seed. I'm not sure if this is possible with other genera of plants such as Daylilys. I do know that triploid Hippeastrum are sterile both as male and female, triploids are created when crossing Diploid x Tetraploid.

Dan, a lot of plants naturally have sticky stigmas to hold onto the pollen so it can take it in when the stigma is ready, some think that this creates a better chance of a cross taking.

Hey Dan, sorry - I should have been more clear. I used the stigma fluid *plus* the pollen on the other stigma. (details ;-) I read that using the stigma fluid "fools" the receiving bloom into accepting the pollen even though it is not the same ploidy. It'll be interesting to see if the seeds grow and are viable though. I'm fairly certain Trentino is a tet and Evergreen is diploid. Not 100% certain, but fairly certain.

Radar, the post I read in another forum actually attributed this technique to daylilys - I'll have to see if I can find it and point you to it. Interesting reading if nothing else, anyway.

Alana

Josh,

Thanks for the info. My experience with crosses primarily lies in daylilys. They are specific to their own type. In daylilys tripods are mules also and found naturally in the species hemerocallis fulva. Daylily are easy to know their genetics not only from their look but from the extensive records that are kept. Hippeastrum seems more of a crapshoot. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Jason

Hi Alana, OK, now that makes sense...mom and dad together at last!! Some people think there is a protein that inhibits self-fertilization at the end of the stigma and if you cut it and apply pollen you can bypass this problem....I tried it on my Paramongaia and failed miserably. I did send some pollen from my Paramongaia to another grower a few days back so I hope they can get some seed and hopefully reward my efforts with a few seed to try of this species. Best of luck with your cross :o) Dan

Triploid Hippies can be bred with the right partner.

Maria,

Do you have an example of breeding triploid Hippeastrum, I would absolutely love to read it! According to Dr. Alan Meerow "Sterile triploid progeny result when diploid species are crossed with tetraploid hybrids." I have also spoke with him about his attempts to cross his triploid Hippeastrum *including Rio, Sampa and Bahia* and he agreed that he'd never been successful in crossing any triploid Hippeastrum. I wonder if since we're assuming which Hippeastrum are which ploidy we're many times incorrect with our ideas.

The real fun starts after three years.Good luck.

I have hardly had more then one kind of amaryllis blooming at a time yet to try any crosses this year though I did just cross a Maguire's Guyra with Eternal Princess since they were the only two I had in bloom. And I have 3 nice fat pods of Magurie's Envy that are almost ripe. The one seed I Popped out through a crack in the pod seemed fertile and well developed so I might have a number to share. You can start getting in line! I will keep 12 seeds and any others are up for shares.

Josh,

Is there no record being kept anywhere to know ploidity? Im not familiar with the registration process of hippeastrum hybrids, is there a society like the AHS that handles this? I think I am going to contact a botanist acquaintance that I have and see if we can lay this ploidity thing to rest. It will at least be educational, and I'm all about learning. I'm sure there are differences between genuses, but I would think genetics are genetics, again I could be wrong.

Jason

As I have said and will always say..

"The written words are there to guide you but don't let them limit you."

I am not questioning Dr. Alan Meerow's expertise but his not being able to cross his triploids does not mean it is not possible. Perhaps he has not found the right partner for them???

I do not know of any "written information" about breeding triploid Hippies. You will need to learn this yourself Joshy. You're young...you can do it.

I am adding this picture for you Joshy.
Hopefully they will inspire you.
A word or warning though.
The road is long and winding that can financially and mentally drain you out.
One reason why I "rested".

{{gwi:445893}}

Boy you guys sure are busy...interesting discussion, Alana, on the trips/dips. I wish there was abook on who is what. Alas I so far have only had 1 bloom this year. It's way too early for me. The Trentino completely aborted all pollen efforts. I only have the other 2 new ones in bud so far (Misty and Fairytale). I have been 'stealing' pollen from store plants (heh heh) I absconded some Matterhorn pollen last week.... I got a really cool bunch of small plastic containers for beads that I am storing my pollen in, for now.

Maria,

Thank you so much :) I totally agree and I think possibility it endless! Think of the impossible intergeneric hybrid �Hippeastrelia that no one thought was possible! Documented was also a cross between Hippeastrum and Habaranthus!

Do you have a theory on triploid partners as to what could make the breeding a success?

Thanks Maria ;)

Cindi, what a crack up! Stealing pollen from the store flowers?! What do you do, hold a baggie up to it and shake? Accidentally wipe it with a q-tip? Brush it with your finger and hold it there all the way home? Do tell!

X Cliveucharis (?)
A said cross between a Clivia miniata and Eucharis grandiflora growing at Longwood Gardens

{{gwi:445895}}

Maria,

Did you notice any major difference in the plant when you saw it in person? I'm not a Clivia master like you ;)

Maria,

That is interesting. I love Longwood, I miss living so close to it. Their conservatory was top notch.

All the luck in finding records of Hippie ploidy.
Just with "Red Lion" or "Appleblossom", there are different clones now with different "ploidy doidy". LOL!

You will need to know/test this on your own as different bulbs even of the same variety "can" have different ploidy.

Several clones of papilios now are not diploids anymore.

Cliveucharis...This is still to be tested if the "claim" of the cross is true. I am no master of clivia. I didn't even know it was such until I read Longwood's notes in the display. It looked very similar to a clivia miniata though but it was said to be fragrant which it could have inherited from Eucharis grandiflora. Didn't get to smell it as it was a "No Touch" display.

Ok so it looks like the International Bulb Society should have the records of hybrids. I just am curious though who is responsible for registering new hybrids? I guess I am just used to the AHS and how organized and easily available breeding information is. Anyone have an idea?

The International Bulb Society is organized more around species, not hybrids. I'm a member and while the occasional hybrid is "Cute" no one really pursues it like we do here..

The only record keeping for hippeastrum is under KAVB, they don't list ploidy for many of the cultivars. Ploidy isn't required when registering a Hippeastrum. The Hippeastrum world is much different from what you're used to, most of the hybridizing is a mystery including the parents and ploidy.

Some of us have been looking for years or more for this information, believe me, there isn't a "List"

Josh

Josh,

Thats disappointing. How is the IBS? Is the exchange active? Is there a lot of information available to members? How are the publications?

Cindee, sounds like you've been successful at "gathering" new pollen for your seed production. I do the same with seeds from folks' gardens - my husband says no seeds are safe with me around. Easy enough to pinch them off and pocket them - just gotta remember to take them out before you wash your pants. Your bead containers sound perfect. Do you take them with you on your gathering missions?

Speaking of seedlings, I'm hopeful that some seedlings from the original seeds you sent me bloom this spring. They're getting to be the right size, I think.

Alana

Maria, how can different 'Clones' exist for a variety....I thought all of these had to be clonal such that there can not be different clones.......and how in the world can the same Hippi hybrid have different ploidy? If it has different ploidy then it can not be clonal which means that it should not be considered the same hybrid should it? I can understand how in nature you can go from diploid to tetraploid in a given species and even how this can be done chemically, but these are then different clones within a species.....makes sense, but how can this be true for a hybrid which should be clonal? Anyway, just curious :o) Dan

Dan,

I don't know how they do it in hippis. In daylilys though they do have tetraploid conversions on diploids and they claim them as the same hybrid. Again I don't know the specifics. I know it doesn't relate to this but I thought I would throw it out there.

Dan,

A hybrid's ploidy can change as well, the ploidy doesn't always determine the size of the plant, many Hadeco varieties seem to be triploids or tetraploids but they're all incredibly small. The hybrids all originated asexually from the same original single plant. Without counting the chromosomes in each individual plant there isn't a way to differentiate the ploidy.

Overproduction and no control at all on releasing and selling bulbs under a "known" variety's name even if they were not.

Take H. Red Lion as an example. Red blooming hippeastrums are being produced all over the world. Although from different clones, they are still marketed as "Red Lion".
I think no one now can be guaranteed that the "Red Lion" you buy in Walmart would be from the very original Red Lion clone.

This also holds true with the cases of Ludwig's Dazzler, Appleblossom and Orange Souvereign. I did a post here several years ago with pics of different pink flowering Hippies all sold under the name of "Appleblossom". I have a feeling that Exotica, Exotic Star and La Paz will soon be joining the bandwagon.

What is going on inside the commercial nursery production/breeding lines we don't know. So much are not being written and told. Hidden secrets of the multi-billion $$$ trade.

HI Maria, but in those cases we are speaking of different hybrids altogether so differences in ploidy make sense I suppose. You are right though, it is all about the money and if you can sell by a name everyone recognizes then it is more likely to sell so people will cheat the system.

Josh, I realize that you can "easily" go from diploid to tetraploid as the cell divides incorrectly and if this ends up being the germ line for a new clone then I suppose you could call it the same hybrid (it is clonal after all), but honestly, how often does this happen in Hippis? Has anyone studied the change in ploidy from generation to generation in a clone....comparing across clones of a species is not good enough as this will not necessarily show rate of change....it can of course with enough DNA analysis. Guess none of this really matters, but I'm just curious now :o) Dan

Joshy...I am rotflm*o!!! Hybrids are "CUTE"....I just hear them asking you..."How do you like me now?"! You are so addicted to the hybrids, it's not even half-funny! CHAD bit you bad Josh! Maybe you'll have to see if you can swing their vote from "CUTE" to "Stylish" or something similar!! You have found value in the hybrids...convince a few more!

GLAD YOU ARE having so much fun with the crosses. I made over 50 a couple of years ago and am hoping for a few blooms this spring! Fingers crossed!!
K