Sorry, posted too soon. I found a 'how to pollinate' FCBS article that is helpful. But still wondering about some experiences with bigenerics and other helpful hints.

Here is a link that might be useful: How to pollinate article

Andy, if you do a forum search using the word "pollination" you'll find many other threads on the subject, including some with pictures. Therefore I won't repeat all the basics, but to answer your questions:

1) Theoretically, a bigeneric cross between any two genera in the same tribe is possible (see link below for list of genera in each tribe). In actual practice, however, they often don't take. Of course a cross between two plants of the same genus may not take either, particularly a genus as diverse as, say, Aechmea. There are some combinations (both within and across genus lines) that simply work better than others. The only way to learn which ones work is by trial and error, but reviewing the registry for what's already been done will give you a lot of clues.

2) "do broms tend to be receptive to pollen before that individual flower releases its pollen?" No, as far as I've been able to tell they occur pretty much simultaneously. This can make it difficult when you have a plant that is a self-pollinator. In those cases it's best to go in and remove the anthers (the part of the stamen that holds the pollen) before the pollen becomes ripe. If it's not self-compatible or if the anthers and stigma are not in close proximity, then you don't have to worry about that. You may still have to remove the stamens just to gain access to the pistil (as with Neos), but you can do it at the same time as you're pollinating. In fact I'll often do kind of a "chain" of pollinations, removing the anthers from one flower to use that pollen on the next, and then pollinating the one I just emasculated with another, and so on down the line.

3) Most broms will be receptive at mid-morning (the actual time frame will vary from area to area) but there are some that bloom at night, like the patterned-foliage Vrieseas. I've heard this is true of some Guzmanias too, and there are undoubtedly others, but unless I see evidence to the contrary I usually figure @ 9:00 AM is going to work for me no matter what the season is. You may find otherwise.

4) As far as storing pollen, I've never tried keeping it at room temperature so I can't say how long it will last. In the fridge, if kept dry, it's generally good for a couple of months, and in the freezer, unthawed, maybe a couple of years? I'm not sure about that. I've used freezer pollen that was 6 or 7 months old with no problem but I don't think I've ever gone over a year.

5) "Do people spend the time on several generations of crosses trying to refine traits?" Ideally, yes. Bromeliad hybridizing is still fairly young and most hybridizers are hobbyists who may not have the patience to go several generations, but as growers become more professional they tend to develop higher standards and are more likely to adopt the type of long-term breeding programs used for other types of crops. Sometimes you get lucky and get something really cool and different on the first try, but the more you can build on your previous work the more you can develop your own "signature" or style. If the traits you're trying to combine are recessive, you may have to go at least a couple of generations to bring them out. Of course if you're doing bigenerics most of them will be mules, so that is self-limiting.

6) As to weapons of choice, I like tweezers/forceps with curved tips. Some people use brushes but I don't know how they can clean them between pollinations. The tweezers I just wipe off on my shirttail or whatever between crosses, you don't have to sterilize them or anything.

Hope that helps. Have fun!

Here is a link that might be useful: Bromeliad Taxonomy

Lisa gave you good advise and all I would add to that is to just do it and not worry some much about what the results will be. You will need to get some experience raising seedlings and it's probably best if you're not too attached to them! So cross everything with anything and take good notes, especially dates and times and how effectively you think you got pollen on the stigma. Mark your crosses or your notes will be of little value.

Lately, I've found that all my old left over fishing line makes great markers. I just take an inch or 2 of different colored monofilament fishing line and stick that in the flower before or after doing the pollination. It's not such a eye-sore and it does seem to stay put even in strong rain and wind. If you don't have a large set of colored line, then you can dip the tip of the line in finger nail polish or something like that to give you more different markers. I did like 20 crosses on one aechmea and I got real creative with making different markers out of the mono.

If the cross takes then a few months later you can pluck the seed pods and still have the mono in it so you can go inside and check your notes to verify what it is. I've tried using bigger markers with writings on it, but I always seem to loose a large percentage. I don't think I've lost a single mono marker yet.

You use that method on Neo's WL? I would like to see a photo of that.

Hi Guys

On the question of keeping accurate logs of all your crosses.....If you have the details of what you X'd and I am assuming that you would keep records so that you can recreate the same cross or you may just be a "detail freak".

What are the odds of getting the same look from the same X? for all you know the seed that doesnt germinate could be the plant that you were looking for. From my point of view it doesnt matter who the parents of the plant were as long as the hybrid is worth while.

What are your views on this?

Records are for the hybridizer and can be used if the plant gets registered. My records don't start until seeds are taken. My tag is all I have to start with which contains the date and the parents. The date is only a reference so I know when to start cking to see if the seeds set. Written notes include the date the cross was made, date the seeds were sown and parentage(which include any special notes on the clones used in the cross if applicable)

I don't do much with neos as seed parents, but I have few examples. I'll post a few picks later today.

Awesome help and hints. I've seen people noting some things like more compact inflorescence traits tend to dominate free and open ones, but do things like that hold across most hybridizations? And from genetic stuff way back in high school...I would assume variegation, some mottling, and some color tend to be recessive?
That was what I was hoping to do WL, get some practice in before I "think" I am trying anything specific. I'll probably start with neo x neos and some bill x bills, are they good ones to start with (with regards to likely success at setting seeds)?
Thanks again for all of the help and motivation seeing your successes/progress.
Oh, and another question on neos: how easy is it to get the seeds out? Will they swell enough to be obvious which had seeds take and when they are 'ripe'?
-andy

Neo's vary on the ease of removal....I start checking 2 months after pollinating on the small neo's as they seem to set seed faster. Larger neo's take longer. The pods do swell but that is hard to see if the neo has a small cup or lots of pin cushion. Neo pin cushions most times change color from lime green to brown when seeds are getting ripe

"What are the odds of getting the same look from the same X?"
Depends on the cross, Dennis. If you cross 2 species the results will likely be more uniform and easier to replicate. If the parents are both complex hybrids the odds of remaking that same look will probably go down quite a bit, particularly if the original was unlike any other in the grex. It also depends on how dominant or recessive the traits are that you're going for. Obviously the recessives are going to be a lot harder.

"From my point of view it doesnt matter who the parents of the plant were as long as the hybrid is worth while."
If you're looking at it as a finished product from a marketing perspective, then it may not matter that much, although the parentage can tell you some useful things, like how much sun that cross should be able to take. If you plan to use that hybrid to make further crosses then it can matter quite a bit. What you see isn't always what you get, genetically speaking. It helps to know the full spectrum of traits that are in your breeding stock's background.

Crosses aren't always a good thing. Check out Judy's Anomoly. It's less desirable than the parents in my opinion! Makes you wonder about the rest of the grex.

No argument there, WL. Not every cross will produce something worth registering, in fact most won't. Even the best-looking specimens may be duds as parents, particularly if there was no clear goal for that particular combination. Cull, cull, cull and then cull some more!

Hi Lisa

I was hoping you would "jump in". Thanks for the reply. I agree that knowing the parentage can assist you in knowning size/light etc. OK so the odds are not good if you are trying to replicate a X, what would you say the easiest way of propergating a new hybrid is...? From pups over a loooong period, trying to reproduce the X or tissue culture? The latter is on my list of least desirable plants as the clones seem to be inferior (colour, form etc.) to a veg propergated plant (my view)

BTW Andy I use a piece of grass to pollinate my Neos, I use the harder "stems" of creeping fine leafed grass (I think its called Florida) and I have a very good success rate.

Thanks Neomea, now I don't feel so silly saying that I tried it with the stem of a dried olive leaf.

Should I dig deeper into past threads searching about recessive characteristics? Say big neo with small neo, stoloniferous vs not stoloniferous? Do some traits tend to follow female vs male genetics? I'm guessing that is a very large can of worms I'm asking about, but worth a shot.

And I am starting to dig through the lineage of some hybrids to check, but thought I would cheat and see if anyone here would give me a quicker answer/direction.
Thanks again for everyone's input.

sdandy it would be much easier if you know what you are looking for ..traits etc ..than to have Lisa write a large book on that subject. What genera are you going to play around with?

Good point HDD, I really like stolons so one goal is to select for them. Wide range of sizes (so I guess it wouldn't matter there to just play around and learn from my own experiences) but probably leaning toward opposite (smaller and larger) ends of the spectrum for neos and larger for bills and neobergias. And also would like to select for socal sun-hardiness for as many as I can (new house and not a lot of shade trees established).

I've got a not-yet-vast variety of neos, bills, aechmeas, and some larger stuff--a quesnelia that is ~4ft tall, couple of puyas--and other large-yet-unidentified-and-very-sharp-toothed stuff that I'm assuming may be aechmeas. Currently I don't really have the portfolio that would allow me to make goals with what I want to try to do.

I am looking to start collecting some stock that would let me start playing with bills with color/size and neos that are darker/sun hardy. But with limited resources, looking to make somewhat smart buying/collecting decisions. I have lots of room, but not quite enough to collect everything and also play with hybridizing.

Sorry that was a lot, but hopefully at least slightly more specific than before.
Thanks again,
-andy

Andy, I think you should spend a year or so just getting your skills built up and not worry too much about what you're crossing. If you're retired or work at home, then you may have the time to do it right, but even then, it's not all book learning. You have to apply what you've read to your unique environment to find out what works. You want to make all the dumb mistakes on seedlings that you don't really care about. I still haven't planted any seeds that I have any real passion to grow out.

WL

Sounds fair enough. I guess I would need to have plants with the characteristics that I like anyways. Ok, I'll slow down on bugging you guys with (currently) academic questions.
-andy

Andy, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain..... ;-)

There isn't anything formally written about which traits are dominant or recessive in broms. A lot of it you just have to learn by trial and error, but it certainly doesn't hurt to ask questions of those who have tried it. You can also use the FCBS databases for research, i.e. do a search for all hybrids with a certain seed parent or pollen parent to see what types of traits are passed on most often. I find that very helpful. A picture is worth a thousand words, and a thousand pictures....... well, you get the idea.

Briefly, however:

"big neo with small neo" - Larger generally dominates. Results usually fall somewhere between the two, but more often leaning towards the larger end, and sometimes can be even larger than either parent. I don't think I've ever seen an offspring smaller than either parent.

"stoloniferous vs not stoloniferous" - Not stoloniferous tends to dominate, or at least pull the other one way back. Some stoloniferous species are better at passing the trait on than others, though, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the comparative length of their stolons.

"Do some traits tend to follow female vs male genetics?" Do you mean that certain traits would be more likely passed on by seed parent rather than pollen parent, or vice versa? Apart from variegation, I haven't found that to be the case. I've done a number of crosses both ways and the results have generally been pretty similar.

If there is a size disparity, however, I find that it is often easier to use the smaller one as seed parent, just because of the relative size of the floral parts and the shorter distance the pollen has to travel to get to the ovary. Of course that one may not be as receptive to pollen as the other one, so if you're not sure, try it both ways just in case one doesn't work.

Thanks yet again Lisa, those answers help a ton. Its great being able to ask you and all of the others here about these things as there really doesn't seem to be much written about such things. Well, at least not concisely and not buried. Now I have a general direction that I will think about going with a few things.

Hopefully I'll be able to report back on some success (meaning seeds and sprouts no matter how ugly--ha ha). And hopefully I'll be able to add something more than questions some day.
Thank again,
-andy

You're asking some good questions Andy, & getting a few useful replies. Most of my hybridising to date has been with large Neos, & as Lisa indicates, large seems to be a dominant trend with hybrids...I've often got a few in each grex larger than either parent. I've also done some crosses with stoloniferous type Neo's & found they do tend to sorten up when crossed with a 'standard' Neo. I did do a cross of ampullacea x ampullace hybrid just for fun, & found that the 1st couple of pups produced from each seedling had virtually no stolon, but as the seedling matured, they did produce normal ampullacea type stolons...as you'd probably expect ;-)

Lisa, you metioned in your last post that "some stoloniferous species are better at passing the trait on than others" ...where does pauciflora sit? I've got a few seedlings coming on with pauciflora as one parent, & I'm kinda hoping for those nice long stolons to show themselves.

Unfortunately, pauciflora is not very good at passing that trait on, Andrew. I have yet to see a pauciflora hybrid that has the same kind of pendulous stolons that the parent has, and many have none at all, e.g. Royal Flush. I have one tagged Granada x pauciflora which has less stolon than either of its parents.

The other unexpected thing about pauciflora is that although it is very scurfy, most of its hybrids tend to be glossy. Go figure.

hi guys i am wondering how long it may take for my vriesea hazal seeds to come up