"Kim, thanks for the response. I wish the classes were defined better too and that I understood the underlying lineages more. the more crosses there are, the more it gets confusing. I like what Lux say, "it's all in the genes, but what genes." Hi Gean, you're welcome! I'm glad this thread is getting the depth of thought you're giving it. Thank you! You'll understand more of the underlying lineages more with practice and exposure. Studying the parentages on HMF will begin to show you patterns, lines which do or don't do what you seek. "The main reason I think about parentage is not so much that I'm esoterically interested in the problems of ARS classification. I'm not a rose breeder,but just an average joe. My interest is my garden and what will do well in it." Yes ma'am, totally valid. "For example, mildew is a problem in my garden because of the climate up here and maybe also my lack of airflow because of the trees around here. Some roses do perfectly fine, others are really susceptible. I've never dealt with mildew before, so it's something new for me." Yes, and ironically, sister seedlings from the same hip will often show tremendously varying degrees of resistance. "I look for hybrid musks because they are supposedly more tolerant of the lack of sun and general climate up here, but some seem to be susceptible to mildew, some not. Why is that? What is in the lineage of some that cause susceptibility to mildew but not others." Hybrid Musk is a misnomer. Originally, Aglaia was created by crossing multiflora with Reve d'Or. Reve d'Or was a seedling of Mme. Schultz, classed as a Tea Noisette, but of unknown parentage. Noisettes originated from musk X China, but there is no known link between these and Mme. Schultz, therefore with Reve d'Or, therefore with any of the established Hybrid Musks. That link is often repeated, but never proven, so it's rose legend. Everything about them as a class, look, behavior, scent, shade tolerance, botanical details...all go back to multiflora. Hybrids of multiflora can be intensely chlorotic due to pH; can mildew something terrible; tend to have great shade tolerance; greatly exhibit the shrub to climbing growth demonstrated by the HM class; traditionally have pastel to white coloring, which is completely logical for under story, woodland plants. Dark flowers don't reflect a lot of light so wouldn't attract pollinators and would die out in Nature. "Musks" aren't necessarily susceptible to mildew. Multifloras often are. Ballerina is a mildew martyr here. There is no "musk" in her expressed characteristics, but there is a TON of multiflora. Each seedling of the same parents is going to have as different an immune system as siblings from the same parents. Some combinations will produce greater resistance than others. "The worst mildew I ever had was the beautiful found rose by our own dear Ann Peck, Old Grey Cemetery noisette. The lineage isn't known but classed as a Noisette, I figure it has musk in it. - is musk highly susceptible to mildew? OG was bs impervious, I thought and tough as a boot - her words and my experience echoes it. Why is that? But highly mildewed in my yard." Mildew is a juvenility disease. It most often affects new foliage. Rust and black spot are geriatric diseases, affecting aging foliage. You can force any plant to develop the infections, even those with great resistance, through culture. You can force even the healthiest rose to mildew by stressing it for water severe enough. I stressed my R. Arkansana into terminal rust through water stress. I now over water it and it is squeaky clean. Many China roses mildew quite a bit. Look at Old Blush. I've not encountered much disease of any kind on roses which demonstrate strong musk influence. Secret Garden is totally immune to everything here. No fungal issues at all, even in a very stressed, shady, dry and windy spot in a client's garden in Santa Clarita. No diseases at all. Penelope mildews like crazy in the same garden. Erfurt and the Lens hybrid multifloras mildewed here in Encino. Secret Garden, stressed tremendously in a five gallon can with almost no soil left in it, and pulled from the roots it grew into the ground is spotless. Oddly, Pookah is disease free here in the same area as the others who have mildew. "I find that some hybrid musks have problems with mildew, some don't. Cornelia suffers but Exc vS its next door neighbor doesn't. Does Cornelia have more musk in it? Lineage isn't known. Is musk the issue? Is Exc VS really a hybrid musk? It is also classed as a polyantha by some. The vintage catalog says what binds the hybrid musks together is their shrubby nature. That's helpful for knowing how they grow but not so much as to their disease susceptibility." There is no known link between anything musk and either of those roses. There IS a high percentage of multiflora in Schubert. That and China roses. Schubert also contains a decent amount of Frau Karl Druschki, another rose which can mildew like crazy. It appears the combination of the two sets of genes provided the better pairings from Schubert's disease resistance. From Cornelia's behavior and performance, I'm comfortable offering that it contains a decent amount of multiflora, just as the other Hybrid Musks do. Sally Holmes is, by breeding, a Hybrid Musk. Ballerina, though of unknown origin, is considered one and Sally is Ballerina X Ivory Fashion. Polyanthas sprang from multiflora. Polyanthas led to several of the roses in question, Excellenze von Schubert for one. Ballerina is like a pinker, repeat flowering multiflora, almost what you'd expect from a pink, The Gift. Knowing what you do about Sally Holmes, is it that far a stretch to consider that, perhaps, the unknown seedling which created Penelope, Cornelia, and the rest might have been either Ballerina, Trier or something very similar? Here, Sally has much greater mildew resistance than Cornelia, Buff Beauty, Ballerina, Erfurt and many others. Talk about blurring of breeding! Robin Hood (a product of a hybrid multiflora crossed with multiflora and China roses) crossed with another poly led to the poly, Happy. Cl. Happy is like a dark red Hybrid Musk/repeat flowering rambler. Robin Hood when crossed with a Hybrid Tea resulted in Iceberg. Iceberg has characteristic mildew on the peduncles and can be forced to black spot if kept pruned too harshly. Notice some trends here? Getting the idea where your mildew originated? "If I could figure out where the predisposition to mildew comes from in its lineage it might help me avoid those types of hybrid musks. Prob the answer is there is no answer, I'm just trying to over simplify." No, I don't think you're trying to over simplify, but the answer is a bit more involved than we'd hope. The mildew came from multiflora and China roses. Some reshuffling of the genes through breeding has led to some which are less susceptible, but without personal experience, it's almost impossible to know which ones. Might you have tried moving the worst offenders around to see if a change of a few feet might help them remain cleaner? A suggestion...Nastrana is known to be a China rose X musk cross, therefore a real musk hybrid. Secret Garden is, by characteristics, a musk or musk hybrid. Have you tried either of those? Lavender Dream is out of Nastrana and Yesterday. Yesterday has Ballerina in it, but has been very healthy in places Ballerina isn't. Narrow Water is a sport of Nastrana. Trying some of these which are either known or highly suspected of being descended from actual musk roses might help answer your questions about where the mildew came from and what might be used to avoid it. Darlow's Enigma is highly multiflora by characteristics, but much more disease resistant than the traditional Hybrid Musks for me. Perhaps it might work for you? It's thought it might actually be Cascadia, which has multiflora, Brunonii and modern roses in it. I hope I've at least given you some more ideas to ponder. Thanks! Kim

Melissa wrote: "Climate in my garden is similar to Kim's but my care is different. I'm not nearly as nice to my roses in general.;) I water less, and feed differently I think. No chemical fertilizers at all." I think your "winter cold" is deeper than mine. (9b v. 10a, Sunset Zones probably between 18 and 19 for you, 20 to 21 for me) It seems your soil is quite a bit different in origin from what I've seen on line, being more of a deeper alluvium. Mine is the white shale layer of the Santa Monica Mountain formations. I water enough to keep plants alive, but not "thriving", particularly during the worst of the heat. I don't fertilize with anything other than prunings I shred and throw back on the soil surface as "mulch". I don't amend using anything, period. I avoid "organic" fertilizers due to the legions of moles, gophers, skunks, opossums, raccoons, coyotes, rabbits, rats, etc., all of which are either attracted by the organics themselves or to those which they attract. I don't need, nor wish to encounter any more "wildlife" that close to the house. Sometimes, it's a "witch" living this close to the "urban wilderness". I don't fertilize those in the ground with inorganic fertilizers, either. The soil is quite 'salty', as is the irrigation water. There has been no rain to flush the accumulated salts from the soil. Adding inorganics would only serve to intensify the "salts". I do use light, infrequent applications of inorganic fertilizer (always water soluble) to newly propagated, potted plants to replace the nitrogen they lose to watering. Being in an "extreme heat, extreme fire danger" area, I am allotted a relatively high level of "Tier 1" water use. I use, and have been using a quarter of that allotment, both to conserve the resource itself as well as to conserve the ever increasing cost of it. The areas I would normally irrigate show the reduced water consumption. I recently removed sixty feet of forty-plus year old escalonia hedge which had begun dying at one end and continued crisping and browning by the foot from the southern toward the northern end. Increasing the water to it had little positive effect, so eliminating the need, as I have done with all other plantings proving themselves "too needy", helps reduce the danger of combustion as well as need to increase the water bill. You might find this seedling of interest. Kim Here is a link that might be useful: Puzzlement

Hi Carol R. gallica Officinalis has about 20 to possibly 30 petals. It is not a single, but it is not full either. Further, it is dark pink/almost purple. I bumped up June 1 photos with a closeup and a distance shot of parent bush r. gallica Offic. A rosarian friend said this sport/hybrid has a lighter color and it has so many petals, he did not think it was a sport - but perhaps a naturally pollinated hybrid from Compte de Chambord (nearby bush) and r. gallica Officinalis. There are so many suckering canes from r. gallica Officinalis, it is difficult to see if it is a separate bush - need to dig them up and untangle the roots? I probably won't do that for a while. Kathy

John, note that, when I photographed 'Mons. Tillier', he was sitting properly in the Tea section, where he belonged. I think that maybe someone had picked him up and carried him around. I've done that myself, but I do usually put them back where they came from. I had a lovely conversation over there with a gentleman who loved all the same Teas that I do. (He had a passion for 'General Gallieni'. So do I, with thanks to Gean.) Then I had to scuttle back to our table, as we were a little shorthanded this year. But I was SO happy to meet several of our GW group! That MADE MY DAY! Well, THAT, and the fact that I took memberships from NEW people, who were just beginning this voyage of discovery. That's so terribly important. It was a wonderful day. And after, we headed north, and spent a couple of days in Ft. Bragg. If you get a chance to visit the Mendocino Botanical Garden, be sure to do so.