Dear Dancacti,
I'll be interested to hear the reply of others, but based on a similar experience I had last year, where the bloom couldn't have been anything other than a self and the resulting bloom looked nothing like the parent plant...it very well could be the Minerva self.

Everyone needs to remember that chromosomes aren't pure...and anytime you breed plants, dogs, horses, etc...you can get a bit (or more) of anything in the background of that plant.

Think about the beautiful blonde couple that has a gorgeous red-haired baby. Remember that great grandmother Ruth had red hair! And where did those green eyes come from?

Now...from what I was told, for the older blooms like Minerva, there are fewer flowers in the background, so the genes in the combo are more limited than what you would have if you selfed a newer variety. Maybe it's easier to think about all of our blooms being mutt dogs...and if you keep breeding mutts to mutts, you'll end up with some puppies that look more like one breed than another AND...in the same litter. Yep, in the same seed pod, you can have each seed producing a very differnt appearing bloom!!

ISN'T THIS ALL JUST TOO EXCITING!!!
:-) Please keep posting photos of your blooms...and do tell, what it the sculpture in the background? They look like dolphins or similar!

Kristi

This could be from one of any large number of currently available Hippeastrum. It resembles some I have obtained from crossing Pasadena with lighter colored varieties. Unless there is a camera color shift, It appears that there is a violet component in the blooms,which could come from San Antonio Rose or a similar variety with that heritage.
Knowing what it POSSIBLY could be would be helpful.
Del

I just realized the "dolphins" are the backs of your chairs. Is my imagination active or what?
heh heh chuckle!
Kristi

Genetics are a strange and wonderful thing, and while we humans can manipulate them somewhat, we cannot control them outright... we are at the mercy of Mother Nature.

I see H. xJohnsonii, but I also can imagine Minerva in there... a difficult call, to be honest. Even when you know the ancestry of both parents, it can be very difficult to see a resemblance in the offspring. Such is the fascinating world of genetics!

I think it could be a Minerva x self. I also think it's really pretty. You have done yourself proud! How long ago did you plant the seeds?

Sure is pretty what ever it came from.

Jan

I would not think you would get the petal shape (somewhat narrow and strongly pointed) of this seedling from a Minerva selfing, from xJhonsonii, yes, but not the former. I say this because Minerva is from a complex line of hybrids and must with the well rounded, full petals. I can see this pattern of venation coming from xJohnsonii as it is much closer to the species.

Notice that the stigma is also colored like the H.Johnsonii as is the back of the throat. Sorry I didn't note this earlier as I was focused on the possibility of a self...and all the goofy things genetics does.

I selfed this:
{{gwi:376538}}

And got this:
{{gwi:412924}}
{{gwi:412923}}

Go figure. There's absolutely no way any other pollen could have been introduced as these Gordies were in a pot on the front porch all by themselves ...unless a pesky bee did this! What I figure is that H. Vittatum is a relative and it showed up with ruffled petals.

Kristi

I would agree, Kristi...

The possibilities are almost endless... from 100% like the mother, to 100% like the father, and all combinations in between... plus, any ancestor or combination of ancestors... or, ancestor and parent and any combination therein!

If you know the history... the pedigree, or lineage... it gets a little easier to predict possible outcomes.

Does not xJohnsonii have Hip. vittiatum in its ancestry? If so (and I think I recall reading this many years ago) then that would explain the white with red veins that came from a selfing or even a bee pod of xJohnsonii.

You lost cultivar(?) could be Hip. striatum or a hybrid of it. There are a couple other species similar to it that could also be in the lineage.

Studying the species can give some insight into the possible lineage of the less complex cultivars. IMHO.

Thanks Rebecca and all but no need to try and explain the H. Vittatum appearance to me. It's all been worked through with folks in the Netherlands who have been breeding Hippeastrum much longer than any of us!

I was using it as a visual example to the original poster about how selfing doesn't guarantee blooms that look the same...in fact, you can't call them the name of the parent plant, because they are not genetically the same. You can only call a clone or offset by the same name. (It was the orignal poster who had the bloom that looked more H. Johnsonii....)

So...no need analyze the ruffled Vittatum further. I just used it to illustrate a point. BUT..if you have pedigree information on the breeding behind some of the older flowers, that would be very interesting to all of us!
Kristi

The only exact copy would be an exact genetic copy, or clone. Anything else is a crap shoot, with Mother Nature at the controls. Basic genetics in action!

We can only manipulate genetics to a certain extent... we cannot control them.

This was my response before the forums decided to delete it!

thanks everyone for the responses, very interesting.

I do know that it is possible to get some degree of variation from selfing a hipp but didn't think you can get this wild a variation!

so I'm going to correct myself here - the original hipp was not a minerva. Not sure what it was though (and don't have it anymore). Here's a pic of it. Can anyone identify it for me?

{{gwi:370983}}

I guess when you look at the flower below (the product of self pollination of the above hippeastrum) you can see some degree of resemblance.

and the one from seed thought to be a self from the above bulb:
{{gwi:440941}}

Cheers,
Dan

And Jodik's response...

It's beautiful, Dan... there's a marked resemblance, even though the red is a bit darker and there are certain differences.

When breeding, having an accurate history makes it so much easier when you're trying to isolate or combine certain characteristics... or when you're trying to breed in a certain direction. Without an accurate accounting of the ancestry of our dogs, we wouldn't even consider breeding. We'd have no idea of what poor traits were hiding, and this could be dangerous within the world of canines.

We keep extremely detailed records, and we crunch data to get an idea of what a prospective outcome might be for a particular pairing. Technology makes it all easy these days. We use certain tools and certain processes, such as inbreeding or tight line breeding... and culling plays an important role, as well.

With flowers, it's a bit different... self pollinations are possible, along with crosses... widening the possibilities. I still have a lot to learn about plant breeding, but I find it just as fascinating.

jodik